Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment process

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

jupiviv wrote: I'm saying it [the whale] sensually perceived her as some kind of marine animal.
This is exactly what makes me wonder: what kind of process are you describing here? Some creature sensually "perceiving" a form and comparing it with some memory it had of a marine animal.

Why adding more to the idea of "mind" than memory, recognition and anticipation? That's all what appears to happen. Humans have a lot of memory going on and are constantly massively anticipating on a projected nearby future. In this process there's a lot of room for confusion like the idea of a "person" or imagining some special consciousness called "self". And a whole inner 'world' is even born to support the existence of this person.

But essentially a whale comparing that woman to a fish is not different from a man comparing a woman to whatever he might imagine.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by jupiviv »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
jupiviv wrote:I'm saying it [the whale] sensually perceived her as some kind of marine animal.
This is exactly what makes me wonder: what kind of process are you describing here?
You should ask yourself that question. Why does it seem to you that the whale is making comparisons with its memory? To me it just seems like purely instinctual behaviour, and with good reason.

If we were to assume your own conjecture to be true, then the whale would not even attack her, and just swim away if it felt irritated. Or, if it felt like hanging around, it'd just communicate its irritation in a different way by gently pushing her away or moving away from her. That's what I'd do if I were a pilot whale swimming in the ocean and a strange, apparently harmless but annoyingly affectionate creature came over and started stroking my ass.

We've been over this before, but you can't seem to grasp the gist of my definition of consciousness. But I can't help you understand it if you insist on keeping on asserting your own ideas every time the issue comes up. If I were to guess, you've been reading too much of Nietzsche's non-Zarathustra writings.
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Tomas
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Re: Let's Swim To The Moon

Post by Tomas »

jupiviv wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
Apart from whales being mammals and not interacting with fish normally (these eat squid I believe)
The wikipedia article stated that they also eat fish.
I wonder what fish tasted like before women started swimming?

btw - duh..mm and dah..umber
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

KillingMyself wrote:This thread doesn't appear to be about Steven Norquist but I'll make a comment nonetheless.

I'm reading his book called Haunted Universe. I like his slightly dark approach. I have no idea if he is enlightened or not, since this brand of enlightened master and those like him i.e. U.G. Krishnamurti, Jed McKenna, Nisargadatta, etc. all say they don't identify with the character they're playing. We can all say that I suppose. How can you debunk it?

Anyways, Haunted Universe has some entertaining moments:
You have always been a mindless, soulless, animatronics character in Disneyland with music and dancing and singing and flashing lights and absolutely no one ever in the park to see or experience it.
He doesn't instill that hopelessness in me like U.G. Krishnamurti did years ago. I'm still searching for some material that will make me feel the utter meaninglessness of it all. In the meantime I took Norquist's recommendation on the works of Thomas Ligotti. Not as stark and empty as I'd hoped for though but it passes the time.
Yeah I don't know what the hell happened to this thread ,-)

I agree with you. Want to read Haunted Universe. It's really interesting that Norquist got Ligotti to edit the book, I haven't read any Ligotti yet but I've read about him and I've read some Lovecraft which is Ligottis biggest inspiration, together with Edgar Allan Poe. What book do you recommend from Ligotti?

And about the guys you listed - U.G. and Nisargadatta (with exception for Jed whom I havn't read to much of yet, but who seems interesting), they have both been my biggest inspiration in this whole enlightenment-circus, specially U.G. when I started conceptualizing around it, so I understand the connection with Norquist and agree with it. Though Nisargadatta seems 'gentler' and the most pragmatic of the four, and is the clearest and brightest inspiration for me in this pack at the moment - and maybe even the greatest contemporary sage, period.
But U.G, he was just so damn cool, and so hilarious. His humor is unmatched. A real character who was absurdly honest and fearless. I doubt that there will be many like him anytime soon. And I don't doubt for a second that the guy was what at least I label as 'enlightened'. But yeah, emptiness is often what one was left with after reading / watching him. Though often an emptiness which carried new growth and which shed a lot of 'crutches', as he would say. I recommend a fairly new book called 'The Last Days of UG Krishnamurti' written by Mahesh Bhatt - about the last weeks of UG's life. He really was fearless into the last breath. Good book.

Nowadays I don't read or watch so much UG, though I will always remember my exploration of his 'teachings' with joy and gratitude.
Oh, and an intersting thing to mention is that even though UG spitted and raged about every guru / teacher, past and present, and they're falseness - he always had respect for Nisargadatta. There's a video on YouTube somewhere where he's asked if he from all of his constant travels ever met another who he considered in the 'natural state' - and he mentions and start to talk about Nisargadatta and the time when he met him. a little sage-gossip for ya' ,-)

But yeah, I will try to get Haunted House, will probably be a good read.
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David Quinn
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by David Quinn »

Nisargadatta's teachings are okay, if a little generic and narrow in scope. Some aspects of his life are puzzling.

Likewise, UG Krishnamurti's teachings are okay, but I find his teaching manner rather disingenuous. I studied him a few years ago and didn't find him very honest at all.

I actually wote a little piece on him back then: A Critique of U.G. Krishnamurti.

Jed McKenna, on the other hand, is just creepy. Dislike him immensely.

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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

That's funny that you would mention the UG article you wrote David, that was actually how I found my way to this site - finding the article itself through UG's wiki-webpage. And of course I was curious of who this bastard was that wrote this article ,-). Nah I'm kidding, but even though I disagree with you in most of the points in that article I gotta give you kudos for critiquing him in it, not common when one reads and searches about him on internet. Even though of course there's a lot of critique of him, it's mostly from a new-age crowd, so the article was fresh in that sense.

An article about UG that is more aligned to my ideas about the guy is this one: http://www.well.com/~jct/consc.html

And it's also interesting how UG's language shifted with time. I really enjoy listening to the audios of him 'fresh from the oven', just a couple of month (approx.) after his 'calamity'. Here are some good ones:

UG With David Bohm / 1968 : http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/ug/ug_aud ... g_bohm.ram

UG Musing about the effects of Calamity (this one is great!) http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/ug/ug_aud ... ologue.ram

---

Oh and about Nisargadatta - read 'Consciousness and the Absolute', very good stuff, not narrow at all - crystallized, I would say.

Download it free from holybooks, or just google it.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

This is the earliest one, I believe:

UG / 1967 Interview: http://www.ugkrishnamurti.org/ug/ug_aud ... gstaad.ram

And here's the Nisargadatta book: http://www.holybooks.com/consciousness- ... a-maharaj/
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by David Quinn »

Sphere70 wrote: An article about UG that is more aligned to my ideas about the guy is this one: http://www.well.com/~jct/consc.html
I found this article problematical on a number of levels. Leaving aside the overall worshipful tone of the piece (it reads like a love letter) and his belief that UG had no agenda (I do not believe this for a second), the author is himself confused about the core issue involved. For example, he writes:
  • "There is no way to escape this illusion. Any bit of consciousness that "I have" about anything is automatically accompanied by the sense of the I. Events in nature (the sun shining in the sky, this noise there, this car passing) do not just happen: they happen to me. Ideas, emotions, desires, that "I have" do not just happen: "I have" them, "I think them". This is where U.G.is different from the rest of us: the "software" of the general idea of the self has been erased in him. "He" does not exist. Only the mind-body unit labeled U.G. exists."
If there is no way to escape the illusion (of self), then why does he imagine that UG escaped it?

This contradiction goes to the heart of UG's teachings and goes a long way to explaining why I think his teachings are disingenuous.

As for your other links, I'll have a look at them when I can and get back to you.

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Blair
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Blair »

Sphere70 wrote:Yeah I don't know what the hell happened to this thread ,-)
You, happened to this thread, with your offensive, blatantly commercialized picture.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

Well, I don't know about love-letter. I mean, it's clearly written by a man who has deep respect and awe for this enigma of a man.
Consider the many writings from devotees about the various gurus and sages of the times and this is nothing. Or even in our western parts, let a deep admirer of Nietzsche write about him and it will surely sound sweet (or even so - read Nietzsche's own salute to Schopenhauer in Untimely Meditations, a beautiful love-letter indeed - even though the admiration changed later).
...his belief that UG had no agenda (I do not believe this for a second), the author is himself confused about the core issue involved. For example, he writes:

"There is no way to escape this illusion. Any bit of consciousness that "I have" about anything is automatically accompanied by the sense of the I. Events in nature (the sun shining in the sky, this noise there, this car passing) do not just happen: they happen to me. Ideas, emotions, desires, that "I have" do not just happen: "I have" them, "I think them". This is where U.G.is different from the rest of us: the "software" of the general idea of the self has been erased in him. "He" does not exist. Only the mind-body unit labeled U.G. exists."

If there is no way to escape the illusion (of self), then why does he imagine that UG escaped it?

This contradiction goes to the heart of UG's teachings and goes a long way to explaining why I think his teachings are disingenuous.
I don't think he thought UG consciously escaped it by a certain method - more that it happened when the escape stopped. Not as another trick, another jump to reach a certain goal, but as a pure and honest stop, full-stop, a giving-up in its purest form. When the running that never occurred finally ended, lightning hit.

When there is no separate sense of self (the illusion) there is only events in nature. I think the article clarify this well. The difference between a person with a strong identification principle and one without is then uninterrupted events in nature. No ponderer, no one to build rational structures, no one who feels different emotions - only emotions, thoughts & actions - blowing like wind through an empty corridor. There is no shadow-effect, it seems. No charcoal of the present that smudges into distorted lines interpreted as past and future. Instead it seems to function more harmonically - quick and clear lines that rapidly dissolves.
This seems to be the crucial differences, and from my study of U.G. he seems to function in this way.

Further, as the article explains - the mechanics of personality, language and idiosyncrasy is still there, being an inseparable mold from the body/mind itself. But the main illusion, the thickest smoke - the constant thinker of past and future - seems to be gone.
And by saying that there is no escape from it, well, by this I myself see it as just that. Don't escape, but dive in (even though this seems like an escapist action it is actually very natural and simple, like hearing when a guitar is tuned from when its not).
This is where Nisargadatta takes over so wisely - he is much more practical in this sense, inspiring one to sink into the deepest, subjective, part of oneself. Into the root-illusion, the vibrant silence that emits all notes. The knot of all knots. This is for me is true rationality. To go into that cave where the first illusion dwells, to taste it, until it no longer gives out nourishment.
Last edited by Sphere70 on Fri May 06, 2011 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

Blair: You, happened to this thread, with your offensive, blatantly commercialized picture.
Go to bed little Chihuahua
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by jupiviv »

I think that, being Indian, his philosophy resembles Indian philosophy, i.e, instead of meddling around with categories and worldly issues, he tries to go right to the heart of wisdom. However, not all of Indian philosophy is wise, and UG's work resembles precisely the portions of Indian philosophy that are not wise.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by David Quinn »

Well, I finally got around to listening to Steven Norquist's lecture. Jesus, what a bore. He couldn't make enlightenment more boring if he tried.

When I said I listened to it, I mean to say that I barely lasted 5 minutes before my eyes started drooping. 6 minutes in and I was snoring deeply. If it was his aim to "awaken" people, then I can only assume that he was engaging in some kind of prank. Or perhaps it was an exercise in postmodernist irony? I can just imagine him at his computer laughing at all of us behind his lifeless facade. At least I hope so. Surely he couldn't be serious about this stuff.

What is it with modern "teachers", and American ones in particular, who set about sucking the very life out of spirituality by "describing" their experiences. Don't they see the sheer inanity of this? There is a very good reason why none of the masters of the past - the Buddhas, the Lao Tzus, the Jesuses, etc - ever made the attempt to describe enlightenment. It simply cannot be done. Any attempt to do so falsifies it and reduces it to farce. How can you describe the experience of the Infinite? It's madness to even try. Or rather, it's sheer ignorance.

Steven Norquist is a fake through and through and gives spirituality a bad name. Dear God, please rid us of these modern snake-oil charlatans.

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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

haha, well, fair enough.

But let's face it, the QRS Philosophy isn't exactly a red, juicy, peach filled with inspiration and exuberance
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by cousinbasil »

Sphere70 wrote:haha, well, fair enough.

But let's face it, the QRS Philosophy isn't exactly a red, juicy, peach filled with inspiration and exuberance
Don't be put off by things like the title of PFTH - it's a sly way to get you to read and consider.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by cousinbasil »

DQ wrote:When I said I listened to it, I mean to say that I barely lasted 5 minutes before my eyes started drooping. 6 minutes in and I was snoring deeply.
Similar to my reaction - like I observed earlier in this thread, he is largely unlistenable.

His speech is halting and full of "you-knows." This lecture, at least, is hugely uninspiring. He sounds more conflicted than he does enlightened.

Can someone provide a transcript of this particular lecture? My interest is piqued. I honestly cannot make any kind of genuine assessment of what he is saying since the way he says it is so noxiously dull.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

cousinbasil wrote:
DQ wrote:When I said I listened to it, I mean to say that I barely lasted 5 minutes before my eyes started drooping. 6 minutes in and I was snoring deeply.
Similar to my reaction - like I observed earlier in this thread, he is largely unlistenable.

His speech is halting and full of "you-knows." This lecture, at least, is hugely uninspiring. He sounds more conflicted than he does enlightened.

Can someone provide a transcript of this particular lecture? My interest is piqued. I honestly cannot make any kind of genuine assessment of what he is saying since the way he says it is so noxiously dull.
Doubt there's any transcript.

Check out some of his essays instead then if his lung pump don't stroke ya' palette:


http://www.spiritualteachers.org/norquist_article.htm


http://www.hauntedpress.net/Sex_and_Enlightenment.html

http://www.hauntedpress.net/Already_Enlightened.html
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Bobo »

David Quinn wrote: It simply cannot be done.
-
Why it can't be done?
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by jupiviv »

I read those three links. He has a mixture of good and bad things to say, the bad being in the majority.

From the first one:
Steven Norquist wrote:There are no persons in existence experiencing the universe, but more than that there is no Ultimate Person, God, Mind, or anything else observing the universe. There is only the experience of the universe being there with no experiencer.

The contradiction here is so obvious that an 8 year old will probably be able to point it out.
You see, with enlightenment comes the knowledge that even though there is much activity in the world, there are no doers. The universe is in a sense, lifeless. There is no one, only happenings and the experience of happenings. Enlightenment reveals that the universe emerges spontaneously. It’s emergence and pattern are perfect in mathematics and symmetry and involve no chance. Nothing is random, everything emerges exactly as it has to. There is no random chance, or evolution based on chance. The universe is perfect, nothing is wrong or could be. There seems to be chance or unpredictability from a human perspective but that is only because our time frame reference can not see the universe emerge through its whole life span in a matter of minutes. If we could see that, then we would clearly see how every event was not only perfect and necessary but even predictable.
He's using other people's recipes to cook his own stale vegetables.

From the 2nd one:
A quick check of the newspapers, divorce rates, booming multibillion dollar porn industry, and numbers of unwed mothers and sexually transmitted diseases gives a lot of support to the celibate camp.

I have personally never met a person who either obtained enlightenment or claimed to have gained enlightenment from sex, but there are legions of people whose lives have been destroyed by the full embracing and expressing of sex.

So from a purely evidentiary standpoint, taking the bulk of the history of the world into account, it seems very, very unlikely that enlightenment is ever gained through sex.

Now the reality:

Both camps are completely wrong. Neither sex nor celibacy contributes one speck of value to obtaining enlightenment. Enlightenment is not about a spiritual quest to obtain something - there is not a method on the earth to follow that results in something.

The peak of ultimate orgasm does not dissolve you into pure divine awareness any more than starving in a cave in complete darkness, celibacy, and austerity causes the divine light to burst forth.

A trillion years before the first life form emerged and considered the idea of sexual union or celibacy, Enlightenment existed perfectly. It has to be understood that Enlightenment is before these, but not other than these.
Not bad.
Enlightenment is the feeling/knowing of that which has never not been.
What is this "never not been", then? Me? You? Him? What is the use of pointing your hand at darkness?
If you want to follow a path, then follow one and enjoy it.
This single statement shows us that he's nothing but a counterfeiter. He should follow his own advice and put his intellect to some use by becoming excellent at something, instead of being another banana peel in the garbage heap of mediocre philosophers.

From the third one:
There is no self. Enlightenment is simply pure selfless awareness of everything that arises moment to moment. It is a ghostly feeling of non-being combined with hammering clarity. It is a shimmering beauty beyond earthly description that is felt by emptiness.
It is to be expected that ghosts will see emptiness everywhere, and will think of that emptiness as being the highest beauty imaginable. These words are like the wisps of smoke that come out of a smoker's mouth. In this case the smoker is Norquist, and he is smoking low grade weed. If instead he told everyone that listening to Bach's cantatas is the true path towards enlightenment, I'd have more respect for him.
Last edited by jupiviv on Sat May 07, 2011 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

There is a very good reason why none of the masters of the past - the Buddhas, the Lao Tzus, the Jesuses, etc - ever made the attempt to describe enlightenment.

I reached in experience the nirvana which is unborn, unrivaled, secure from attachment, undecaying and unstained. This condition is indeed reached by me which is deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, tranquil, excellent, beyond the reach of mere logic, subtle, and to be realized only by the wise."


- Buddah

Nirvāna is the highest happiness

- Buddah


--

Both short descriptions of Enlightenment
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

Jupiviv:

Take away paradox from the thinker and you have a professor.
Soren Kierkegaard

The thing is to put you in a certain mindset - a mood - for further self-investigation.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by jupiviv »

@Sphere70, I edited my post to add and comment on some more of his quotes. You might want to read it again.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by Sphere70 »

Jupiviv:

Ok, first I just wanna point out that I really don't feel like protecting the dude all to much. I don't hold his persona (the outer expressions) in as high regard as UG or Nissa. for example. I just thought it's nice for once with a living person explaining a actual perceptual shift (if one chooses to believe him) in a way that I considered to be in tune with the direct clarity of enlightenment.

You see, with enlightenment comes the knowledge that even though there is much activity in the world, there are no doers. The universe is in a sense, lifeless. There is no one, only happenings and the experience of happenings. Enlightenment reveals that the universe emerges spontaneously. It’s emergence and pattern are perfect in mathematics and symmetry and involve no chance. Nothing is random, everything emerges exactly as it has to. There is no random chance, or evolution based on chance. The universe is perfect, nothing is wrong or could be. There seems to be chance or unpredictability from a human perspective but that is only because our time frame reference can not see the universe emerge through its whole life span in a matter of minutes. If we could see that, then we would clearly see how every event was not only perfect and necessary but even predictable.


He's using other people's recipes to cook his own stale vegetables.
In the end all these fellas / gals that supposedly abide in the stateless state talk kinda the same language - it's not a handful of different states, so the reports won't differ much other than in the symbols that will package it. His language will of course be limited to what he collected and got infused with through his lifetime (which is the case for all of us - our personalty's as a collage of different influences and molders - the more or these the more hidden the main program will be).
Quote:
Enlightenment is the feeling/knowing of that which has never not been.


What is this "never not been", then? Me? You? Him? What is the use of pointing your hand at darkness?
I think it's that difficulty to explain the un-explainable which make the sentence wobble. He is obsiously trying to point at it in a non-direct way.
He wanna hint and dress in taste that which Huang Po clarified here: “Let me remind you that the perceived cannot perceive” - and which makes all words and definitions mere illusionary symbols. That's why I like the ones who can build up moods embedded with un-direct, direct, wisdom, often hidden in paradoxes.
Quote:
If you want to follow a path, then follow one and enjoy it.


This single statement shows us that he's nothing but a counterfeiter. He should follow his own advice and put his intellect to some use by becoming excellent at something, instead of being another banana peel in the garbage heap of mediocre philosophers.

From the third one:
I really don't think he consider himself - or that anyone else does - a philosopher, so the lofty, non-enlightened, idea of individual perfection goes out the window. Perfection is itself the unburdening of the identification with what arises. The dream-play is seen as that. The perfection that I see get discussed and promoted around here sometime is just folly and its use is for sharpening a structure that will only be put to work for deriving the sweet nectar of intellectual victory - sweeter then sex in some eyes, but a far greater attachment in the end. The will to power - indeed.
Nothing wrong with it, not at all, this is the nature of the beast - but will it lead to a perceptual shift, a true understanding from an abiding point where no one understands. Highly unlikely. A person is better of masturbating his way into what we call spiritual enlightenment ,-)
That's my new philosophy! Yes, look out for a new forum with interpretations and quotes from Haukin and Ramakrishna supporting the power of self-love. Haha, that's funny. “For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” Jesus, mmmm.
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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by David Quinn »

The trouble with Norquist is that he is speaking/teaching way too soon without having allowed the time needed for his new realization to deepen and mature. Understandably, he has been blown away by his realization, but he needs to be aware that he is still just scratching at the surface. His teaching, such as it is, is forced to make up for the shortfall in the maturity and authenticity of his realization by following the grooves of other more established teachers. That's why it comes across as generic and lifeless.

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Re: Steven Norquist - Audio lecture on his enlightenment pro

Post by David Quinn »

Bobo wrote:
David Quinn wrote: [Describing enlightenment] simply cannot be done.
Why it can't be done?
How can you describe everything that has ever happened and will ever happen?

There is essentially nothing to describe.

Sphere70 wrote:
There is a very good reason why none of the masters of the past - the Buddhas, the Lao Tzus, the Jesuses, etc - ever made the attempt to describe enlightenment.

I reached in experience the nirvana which is unborn, unrivaled, secure from attachment, undecaying and unstained. This condition is indeed reached by me which is deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, tranquil, excellent, beyond the reach of mere logic, subtle, and to be realized only by the wise."


- Buddah

Nirvāna is the highest happiness

- Buddah


--

Both short descriptions of Enlightenment
These aren't really descriptions, though. They are words that point the mind towards what can be experienced. Road signs, as opposed to detailed reviews.

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