My Disjointed Thoughts On The Topic Of Nothing.

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
cousinbasil
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Re: My Disjointed Thoughts On The Topic Of Nothing.

Post by cousinbasil »

Matt wrote:i, for one, do believe in life after death, i hardly believe in this life after death, nor would i want to. it is my belief that we are sentenced to roam the countless planets suitable for any conscious life, until the Universe ceases to be with the only saving grace being through death, our brains also cease to exist, erasing any memory of what you are or what you were.
Don't know how you came to this belief, but I have to say it closely resembles impressions I sometimes harbor myself.
with that being said, i believe in no god(s) and i view the Universe as being very cold and indifferent to us humans, or any other life, advanced or otherwise and i also see no real reason anything should be alive or what purpose any of this serves.
But upon any level of consideration, this would not follow from the first quote. It seems to me that it is necessary to reject anything that leads one to believe "there is no real reason." If this were true, then there would be "no reason" to suppose there is any life after physical death.

I agree that the trappings of this life could not follow us, and nor would that be a desirable thing. Yet I think something must, and therein lies any possible reason for thinking there is any kind of existence after physical death.

Being as starkly honest as possible, I cannot concur with the all-too-easy blanket sentiment that the Universe is entirely indifferent. If there were an absolute lack of love, for example, it logically would not be possible, at any time, to bemoan its absence. In addition, if the Universe were absolutely "indifferent," it would forever remain entirely foreign. Instead, it displays an astonishing regularity and is for no discernible reason amenable to rational exploration, and its behavior closely mirrors mathematical models which are for the most part simple enough for grade school children to express.

An indifferent life would predictably never turn in one's favor. Yet it does so to a tantalizing extent, making proclamations of its "heartlessness" lie just beyond the reach of one's certainty.

But Matt, after this post, you are no longer displaying disjointed thoughts about nothing, are you? While I admit your first quote above expresses a state of mind I often experience, I should add that at those times I claw my way past it. For example, I do not think the brain is the repository of anything of us which may survive physical death. rather, I think it is the portal in and out of this thing to the physical world, which we would not encounter after death in the same way, so that our brains would be unnecessary at best, hindrances at worst, for they would then tether one to a plane in which one no longer exists.

The key, I think, lies in supposing there are planes of existence, all of which are experienced by a healthy mortal. The basis of dualism is our dual existence, in which we recognize equally real inner and outer worlds. In reality, we know nothing of any outer world, but merely interpret reflections it casts upon our inner world with its perceptions and later, conceptions. The world of perceptions is the tip of the iceberg; remove it, and the iceberg persists. Survival in the physical world requires us to fashion ourselves after it, devoting energy and time to feeding the component of ourselves that resides there, our physical bodies. Remove this link to it, leave it on a slab in the morgue or in a box in the ground, and we are free to pay attention to the vastly larger portion of ourselves. We have died; isn't this what we have really wanted all along? Isn't living a chore? Once Eros has been paid its homage and we have done our share to obey the urges which compel us to create newer, fresher outer shells and prepare these new shells to prosper as well as possible in this outermost plane, Thanatos can be satisfied and one can withdraw into the bosom of Death, where truer, more permanent Life resides.

If we are not guide-less in these newer realms, then the Universe cannot be without its gods, can it?
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m4tt_666
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Re: My Disjointed Thoughts On The Topic Of Nothing.

Post by m4tt_666 »

that's very nice, but, give me an example where the Universe has ever displayed any type of emotion toward life that life itself didn't ascribe to it. the Universe does not move, does not breathe, does not live. life is burdened with these things due to the lack of a conscious Universe.

you claim there is a reason to life, but you have no idea what it is. is a lack of reason not sufficient for you even if it were truth?

suppose the Universe was a living, breathing, moving being. it's life and therefore, it's individual actions would have some effect on our life on Earth, but unless the Universe knew of our existence and suffering and joy, its actions cannot be considered to harbor any type of emotion toward us. it's like a comparison between us to the bacteria in our bodies.

the way i see it, even if there were a crystal clear reason to our existence, how could it ever live up to our expectations?
cousinbasil
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Re: My Disjointed Thoughts On The Topic Of Nothing.

Post by cousinbasil »

m4tt_666 wrote:that's very nice, but, give me an example where the Universe has ever displayed any type of emotion toward life that life itself didn't ascribe to it.
That's nonsensical. First of all, no one said anything about emotion. For all we know, that is a human failing and may be an artifact of the relatively early stages of human evolution. We've only been here for an eye-blink as you should know.

Secondly, I submit humanity is no where near aware of everything that exists, either living or non-living. You may think it is, but this is unsupported, unbridled hubris at its finest.

Thirdly, life is clearly a part of the Universe, and if every single iota of meaning were traceable to something living, so what? What is your point? Human life may very well be on the lower rungs of intelligent life. The spiritual realms may in fact be made of matter too subtle for us to recognize, but may very well be subject to similar laws as our gross matter and its constituent elements are. That is, what may seem like planets without visible life may harbor spiritual beings as the earth houses us. Recent findings suggest billions of planets have been identified, countless of these within the narrow bands of conditions which support the life forms we do know of, namely those found on earth.

Ignorance of the truth is no excuse for ceasing to search for it, which your attitude shows that you have. You have no answers. You do not even deign to have questions!
you claim there is a reason to life, but you have no idea what it is. is a lack of reason not sufficient for you even if it were truth?
More double-talk, matt, I am sorry to say. How do you know I have "no idea" of this or anything else? Because you have no idea? Faulty reasoning, young man. Lack of reason cannot be the truth, since the existence of truth itself indicates reason. Which should be obvious!
suppose the Universe was a living, breathing, moving being. it's life and therefore, it's individual actions would have some effect on our life on Earth,
It does! The seasons, the tides, gravity which keeps us on the earth's surface and bound to the life-sustaining sun. To merely scratch the surface.
...unless the Universe knew of our existence and suffering and joy, its actions cannot be considered to harbor any type of emotion toward us. it's like a comparison between us to the bacteria in our bodies.
Again elevating emotion to some kind of sine qua non, the perceived lack of which you take to be some kind of cosmic proof. Of what, I am not sure. Since if we even stick with our narrow view of emotion, we cannot claim humans are its sole owners, or its sole victims, depending on how you look at it. Don't know what the mention of us in relation to bacteria is supposed to demonstrate, but emotions or not, we depend vitally on bacteria, just as many forms of bacteria depend on us. Emotion seems to be a non-factor in this symbiosis, wouldn't you say? Does that make it (the symbiosis) less real or less vital?
the way i see it, even if there were a crystal clear reason to our existence, how could it ever live up to our expectations?
For one thing, one might begin by jettisoning those expectations that stand in the way of discovering meaning, of knowing the truth.

BTW - it looks as if I am lifting your quotes out of context to suit my needs. This is because you inexplicably refuse to use proper capitalization and punctuation. In other words, I am not quoting parts of sentences, but your entire sentences. Your thoughts would be clearer if you made an effort to present them properly, and the discussion which they provoke would be more precise and easy to follow.

I hate to harp on things like that, and I know I have complained to you in the past about it. I always hesitate to enter into exchanges with you, because you do not seem interested in making sure your thoughts lack ambiguity. You do not seem interested in respecting your readers. Either that, or you are being lazy. Both reasons discourage debate, at least from me, whether or not such is your intent. Just a thought.
Last edited by cousinbasil on Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pam Seeback
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Re: My Disjointed Thoughts On The Topic Of Nothing.

Post by Pam Seeback »

do you believe in life after death?
Is death not a part of life?
it is my belief that we are sentenced to roam the countless planets suitable for any conscious life,
Who or what is sentencing you?
that's very nice, but, give me an example where the Universe has ever displayed any type of emotion toward life that life itself didn't ascribe to it. the Universe does not move, does not breathe, does not live. life is burdened with these things due to the lack of a conscious Universe.
Matt, provide me with your reasoning that has concluded that that which moves and is living can be a production of that which does not move or is not living? I deliberating left out your reference to breath, as it is an effect of activity, and not an action in and of itself.
cousinbasil
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Re: My Disjointed Thoughts On The Topic Of Nothing.

Post by cousinbasil »

moving wrote:Matt, provide me with your reasoning that has concluded that that which moves and is living can be a production of that which does not move or is not living?
The notions of spontaneous generation have only recently, within the last 200 years or so, fallen out of favor. The more modern theories which fall collectively under the heading called "abiogenesis" suppose that while life does not spontaneously appear from inanimate matter today, it may have done at one or more periods in the past. Crucial to any such theory's completeness would be an accounting of reproduction, that is, once life has "appeared," for that life to account for life we know today, self-replication must have appeared along with it. Personally, this is what kills such approaches for me, not some appeal to any body of religious thought, which also largely fails to appeal to me.

Since man has discovered life where he heretofore thought it could not be - such as deep in the sea, deriving its metabolic energy from gases escaping from cracks in the ocean floor - there is no reason to suppose humans have already encountered it in every place we ever will encounter it, or that we will fail to find "new" forms hitherto unimagined by us. To dub the Universe as unliving may make as much sense as man's historical proclamations that the world was flat.
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