A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

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Bob Michael
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A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

It happened in Meister Eckhart's time that a great priest - great not only in learning, but in life - said to him: "Dear master and father, if you won't take it ill of me, out of divine love, I would like to talk something over with you." To which he replied in the friendliest manner: "My dear sir, gladly; speak anything you like!" Whereupon the priest began by saying: "You know that I have heard a good many of your sermons - and I have liked them - and I have not liked them." Then Meister Eckhart said: And now, dear sir, I beg of you for God's sake to explain what you mean - for liking and disliking them are utterly contradictory to each other."

Then the good priest said: "I tell you. What I have enjoyed hearing from you were the great adroit ideas, which by the grace of God I could understand. But thinking them over, I have also thought of the saying, 'Cast not your pearls before swine' and your sermons have become annoying to me, and I thought: these high and subtle notions should be settled for the greater part in the universities, for - and please do not be offended by this - I have become estranged from you because you say such things openly to the common, dull people in your sermons. It seems to me that there is no use in this; you might do something better and more agreeable to God, from which our fellow countrymen could derive bith instruction and improvement. Your great subtle words are of no use to a beginner who does not understand them!"

"And neither are they so profitable to a growing person, to whom instruction by gradual degrees of advancement is better suited. And people who are high-minded, great, perfect, and intelligent have no need for them - and no great desire for them! For as long as they are listening to them, they may be glad to hear them; but when they cease listening and come to themselves again, introspectively, and devote themselves with a great and humble abandon to the will of the Highest, sunk deep in true humility, so drowned in God's creation that they do not know whether they are in time or beyond it: in that school, in which they sit under the Highest as schoolmaster and preacher, one may acquire in a moment more instruction and knowledge than you or any other master in the external schools could impart in a hundred years."

"Therefore, dear Meister Eckhart, to these three kinds of people - the beginners, those who are making progress, and those who are perfect - your sermons and doctrines are not delivered so very helpfully or usefully. But even though I am unworthy to give you advice, nevertheless I should like to advise you, out of divine love, and with God's help, to begin now and imitate the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and the method he used while he walked in this world of time. His instruction in the synagogues and the temple was to the end that people should cease their unvirtuous and sinful deeds and learn to do good things well; - learn how he drove out unvirtue and put it away, until unvirtue gave place to virtue. This kind of instruction is as much needed today as it ever was: to focus the mind of Christ on the sinful, unvirtuous life of man, to preach and demonstrate to people how they may come at an orderly, virtuous Christian life."

"Now then, dear Meister Eckhart, you speak openly in your sermons about great, transcendent matters that few people understand or can use, and they are not very fruitful. And so, Meister Eckhart, you are a great priest and master of Scripture, but now you have to begin with 'A' just as you did the first day you sat down in school; but if, on that day, someone had set a big book down before you and called you to read from it, it would have been quite useless. You yourself had to begin with the 'A' and gradually learn more and more until you have become a master of Scripture."

"Thus it is quite necessary to teach beginners and intermediate students and set forth to them how they may begin to quit their unvirtuous lives and get hold of virtue. When, by the help of God, people have found out how to lay hold of virtue, they, too, will be masters over wrong and doubtless from within, they will be instructed by the Holy Spirit, so that they will have no need of verbal teaching - and yet - they will stay within the holy church."

When he had finished this speech, the good priest said: "Dear Meister Eckhart, I have said too much and talked too long to you, forgive me. It is time now for me to go home." Meister Eckhart turned around to him, gave him a kiss of peace, and said: "Dear sir, I tell you that for many a year I have enjoyed hearing no discourse as much as this - which I have suddenly had to listen to from you. May God be your everlasting reward! And with divine love and Christian brotherliness, I bid you and exhort you for God's sake - as I may so exhort you - to tell me plainly about your life. For by the grace of God, I plainly see that you have spoken from the core of your life."

(From 'Meister Eckhart' - A Modern Translation by Raymond B. Blakney, 1941)
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

There are some other good legends accumulated around the Eckhart phenomenon. From the same book:
  • Meister Eckhart met a beautiful naked boy.
    He asked him where he came from.
    He said: 'I come from God.'
    Where did you leave him?
    'In virtuous hearts.'
    Where are you going?
    To God.
    Where do you find him?
    'Where I part with all creatures.'
    Who are you?
    'A king.'
    Where is your kingdom?
    'In my heart.'
    Take care that no one divide it with you!
    'I shall.'
    Then he led him to his cell.
    Take whichever coat you will.
    'Then I should be no king!'
    And he disappeared.
    For it was God himself-
    Who was having a bit of fun.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by jupiviv »

Diebert wrote:Meister Eckhart met a beautiful naked boy.
He asked him where he came from.
He said: 'I come from God.'
If Michael Jackson's gone to heaven, he must be having a hell of a time.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by jufa »

In the dialogue of the priest's critique the priest is ignorantly spreading pure propaganda of a self-righteous religious system of thought which is founded and established in divide and conquer tactic. What has made this priest great in determinism over Eckhart's teaching, and a judge as to who and where such teaching should be taught especially when those who follow Christ are told to go into the world and teach this message to every one because God is no respector of person?

Infamous as well as giant thinker are guilty of advancing each and every human stage of human thought. In man's distinction between what is good and evil, how this is to be done and that not, man becomes his own god of good and evil and self-righteous judgmental religious thoughts.

In the invsible silence every one is equal to the thoughts they live. Every one is free from the box the universal human mind says is real. Nothing is beyond the outer objective vision and inner subjective human senses and feelings projected by the human mind. Man's freedom to do the will of God according to that which God has given him has always been man's vehicle of liberation and has made him the Physician who heals himself. Irrespective of what appears or is happening in man's world, body, or mind, nothing is greater than man's will of being, for it is the emanation of "the law of the Spirit of life."

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." (J. C.)

"A man’s maturity: that is to have rediscovered the seriousness he possessed as a child at play." (Nietzsche)
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Pam Seeback »

Then the good priest said: "I tell you. What I have enjoyed hearing from you were the great adroit ideas, which by the grace of God I could understand.
In calling Eckhart's thoughts “great adroit ideas”, the priest revealed that he did not understand Eckhart's wisdom message of being restored to one's spirit discernment of One.
But thinking them over, I have also thought of the saying, 'Cast not your pearls before swine' and your sermons have become annoying to me, and I thought: these high and subtle notions should be settled for the greater part in the universities, for - and please do not be offended by this - I have become estranged from you because you say such things openly to the common, dull people in your sermons. It seems to me that there is no use in this; you might do something better and more agreeable to God, from which our fellow countrymen could derive bith instruction and improvement. Your great subtle words are of no use to a beginner who does not understand them!"
None understood Jesus completely, not even his disciples. Did that stop him from speaking to whoever came to listen of the truth of the light of the Father? When one comes willingly to hear, it is not casting pearls before swine.

How do you think the priest's congregation would respond if they knew that he viewed them as being “common” and “dull?”
"And neither are they so profitable to a growing person, to whom instruction by gradual degrees of advancement is better suited. And people who are high-minded, great, perfect, and intelligent have no need for them - and no great desire for them!
In order for the priest to speak with authority about people who are high-minded, great, perfect and intelligent, he must have believed himself to be equal to these things. Which also shows his ignorance and arrogance, for until one is cleansed of every changing human thought of the unchanging God, he is not perfected of the omniety/infinity of his Spirit. There are no degrees of advancement in Spirit, for there are no degrees in Spirit period. If the priest had known this, the above thoughts would never have fallen from his lips.
For as long as they are listening to them, they may be glad to hear them; but when they cease listening and come to themselves again, introspectively, and devote themselves with a great and humble abandon to the will of the Highest, sunk deep in true humility, so drowned in God's creation that they do not know whether they are in time or beyond it: in that school, in which they sit under the Highest as schoolmaster and preacher, one may acquire in a moment more instruction and knowledge than you or any other master in the external schools could impart in a hundred years."
Again, the priest displays his ignorance of the law of the Spirit of life. It is not possible to be “drowned in God's creation”, one already IS of God's creation, and is consciously so according to how much “He [the pattern of the righteousness of One] is increased and I am decreased [the pattern of self righteousness of belief in two.]”
"Therefore, dear Meister Eckhart, to these three kinds of people - the beginners, those who are making progress, and those who are perfect - your sermons and doctrines are not delivered so very helpfully or usefully.
Again, an erroneous reference to those who are perfect. Not even Jesus, while he breathed his breath of the Son of man, was perfect. What is it to be perfect of the law of the Spirit of life? Speak The One Word of All Things, and it is so.
But even though I am unworthy to give you advice, nevertheless I should like to advise you, out of divine love, and with God's help, to begin now and imitate the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ and the method he used while he walked in this world of time.
Had the priest truly believed himself unworthy of Eckhart's teachings, he would not be giving him advice. Instead, he would be as Mary was to Jesus, at his feet, listening with an open mind capable of seeing and hearing his light.
His instruction in the synagogues and the temple was to the end that people should cease their unvirtuous and sinful deeds and learn to do good things well; - learn how he drove out unvirtue and put it away, until unvirtue gave place to virtue.
Let's look closely at the truth of the instructions given by the adult Jesus the one time he taught in the temple and the one time he taught in the synagogue of his youth:

When Jesus drove the moneychangers and the sellers of animals out of the temple, and was asked by the Jews “what sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?”

Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body. When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

When Jesus returned to his home town, Nazareth, and spoke in the synagogue, he addressed only this one scripture from the book of Esaias:

The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

I see no mention of virtue, of unvirtue, or of doing a good thing well in either example of Jesus' preaching. Jesus spoke of the healing, liberating way of Spirit awareness and that is all.
This kind of instruction is as much needed today as it ever was: to focus the mind of Christ on the sinful, unvirtuous life of man, to preach and demonstrate to people how they may come at an orderly, virtuous Christian life."
Since the mind of Christ is pure spirit awareness, when it is focused on one's belief in sin and unvirtue, one's belief is instantly dissolved or consumed. This is why Jesus came to baptize not with water as did his cousin John the Baptist, but with a consuming fire.

As for influencing people to "come to an orderly, virtuous Christian life", Jesus identified himself only by two names: the Son of man and the Son of God. If the priest were truly imitating Jesus as he walked in this world of time, he would do likewise, would he not? Why did the priest not identify himself metaphorically as Son Consciousness? He did not because he did not have the mind of Christ.
"Now then, dear Meister Eckhart, you speak openly in your sermons about great, transcendent matters that few people understand or can use, and they are not very fruitful. And so, Meister Eckhart, you are a great priest and master of Scripture, but now you have to begin with 'A' just as you did the first day you sat down in school; but if, on that day, someone had set a big book down before you and called you to read from it, it would have been quite useless. You yourself had to begin with the 'A' and gradually learn more and more until you have become a master of Scripture."
Eckhart read with a mind imbued with the knowledge of the righteousness of One, of the tree of life; the priest, with a mind imbued with the self righteousness knowledge of the tree of good and evil. Both planted in the soil of the law of the Spirit of life, but only one knows this to be so. Again, the priest ignorantly displays his knowledge of what 'transcendence' of Spirit truly means.
"Thus it is quite necessary to teach beginners and intermediate students and set forth to them how they may begin to quit their unvirtuous lives and get hold of virtue. When, by the help of God, people have found out how to lay hold of virtue, they, too, will be masters over wrong and doubtless from within, they will be instructed by the Holy Spirit, so that they will have no need of verbal teaching - and yet - they will stay within the holy church."

" - and yet - they will stay within the holy church":
The true motive of the priest exposed.
When he had finished this speech, the good priest said: "Dear Meister Eckhart, I have said too much and talked too long to you, forgive me. It is time now for me to go home." Meister Eckhart turned around to him, gave him a kiss of peace, and said: "Dear sir, I tell you that for many a year I have enjoyed hearing no discourse as much as this - which I have suddenly had to listen to from you. May God be your everlasting reward! And with divine love and Christian brotherliness, I bid you and exhort you for God's sake - as I may so exhort you - to tell me plainly about your life. For by the grace of God, I plainly see that you have spoken from the core of your life."
It is true, the priest was speaking all that he knew, as did Eckhart in his response to the priest.

The church [the priest] feared Eckhart – for good reason.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by jufa »

Bob Michael wrote:"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven." (J. C.)

"A man’s maturity: that is to have rediscovered the seriousness he possessed as a child at play." (Nietzsche)
It is obvious you ignore, as the priest, and Nietzsche, Jesus' message of "WHOSOEVER WILL COME."

This is tipical of the self-righteous religious fanatics.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

"For many are called, but 'few are chosen'." (J. C.)

Though I doubt very much if Christ fully realized just how few were chosen and the reason for this tragic fact of life.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by jufa »

Bob Michael wrote:"For many are called, but 'few are chosen'." (J. C.)

Though I doubt very much if Christ fully realized just how few were chosen and the reason for this tragic fact of life.
In your doubt, you should then be able to give us the exact number of how many have been chose, or something near it by evidence.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

I think God (or the Truth) spoke very well to Meister Eckhart through the "great priest", and that Eckhart realized this fact. Back in Eckhart's day I think there were still some honorable and uncorrupted priests. And I think the "holy church" the priest spoke of was not one of brick or stone and worldly authority, but an esoteric one. The universal spiritual church or that "holy city" that only those who are "pure in heart" ever enter into and experience first-hand. Much the same as the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Heaven. Which is everywhere and nowhere, and simply a state of the mind and the heart. A mind and a heart that have made the return to their 'natural state'.

Regarding Christ, I find that he, like Eckhart, was not 100% divine. Or if they were, then God Himself was not yet 100% divine in their respective times.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Tomas »

Bob Michael wrote:Which is everywhere and nowhere, and simply a state of the mind and the heart. A mind and a heart that have made the return to their 'natural state'.
Sounds good to me. Been there, done that (and continuing to do so).
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

jufa wrote:In your doubt, you should then be able to give us the exact number of how many have been chosen, or something near it by evidence.
Perhaps only 2% of the human species is capable of attaining to Christlikeness. And while I have no real evidence or proof for this view, I find it's good and useful for me to at least realize this for myself.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Bob,
I think
what does that mean?
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Bob,
I think
what does that mean?
To have a particular opinion, view, belief, idea, or feeling about someone or something.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Dennis Mahar »

To have a particular opinion, view, belief, idea, or feeling about someone or something.
What's prior to 'opinion, view, belief, idea, or feeling' ?
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

Dennis Mahar wrote:What's prior to 'opinion, view, belief, idea, or feeling' ?
Sorry Dennis, I have nothing further to add here as I 'feel' to do so would be neither spiritually or humanly productive.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Tomas »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
To have a particular opinion, view, belief, idea, or feeling about someone or something.
What's prior to 'opinion, view, belief, idea, or feeling' ?
The Garden of Eden (with Adam & Eve) before Satan set about his duties.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Bob,
I 'feel'
What does that mean?

Tomas,
The Garden of Eden (with Adam & Eve) before Satan set about his duties.
Did you read that in a book?
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Tomas »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Bob,
I 'feel'
What does that mean?
Tomas,
The Garden of Eden (with Adam & Eve) before Satan set about his duties.
Did you read that in a book?
See my earlier response to Bob Michael.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

Tomas wrote:
Bob Michael wrote:Which is everywhere and nowhere, and simply a state of the mind and the heart. A mind and a heart that have made the return to their 'natural state'.
Sounds good to me. Been there, done that (and continuing to do so).
I got the term 'natural state' from U. G. Krishnamurti, who I find was quite insightful into the fallen and corrupt nature of the human species. Though in spite of his keen insights I find he was too much the buffoon and thereby was of little, if any, real value in the awakening of any of his fellows.

And yes, I happen to think the end of America is soon ahead.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Bob,
I got the term 'natural state' from U. G. Krishnamurti
Where did UG get the term 'natural state' from?
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Tomas,
See my earlier response to Bob Michael.
I looked and it wasn't mentioned.

I was referring to this :
The Garden of Eden (with Adam & Eve) before Satan set about his duties.
It was written in a book wasn't it?
That's where you got it from wasn't it?
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Where did UG get the term 'natural state' from?
I have no idea nor does it really matter all that much. And since he's dead and gone I suppose we'll never, ever know. Perhaps he got it directly from God or maybe from heaven. I sometimes seem to get things from these sources. Or maybe they come from my own head, or maybe from my own heart. Who knows? I give up! Do you know, Dennis? Please tell me if you do.
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Dennis Mahar »

I would say there was a prior to UG wouldn't you Bob?

What is a 'thought' anyway Bob?
What is a 'feel' Bob?

Can you help?
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Re: A Priest's Critique of Meister Eckhart (in full)

Post by Bob Michael »

Dennis Mahar wrote:Can you help?
I doubt it very much, Dennis. I could be wrong here, but you seem to me to be very much caught up in your head, or the intellect, reason, analysis, and logic. Which is to be far-removed from your heart or your intuitive powers and the true understanding and perception of all things.
Last edited by Bob Michael on Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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