The "Kingdom of Heaven" and the "Kingdom of God"

[Bob Michael]

"The "kingdom of heaven" is a state of the heart - not something to come "beyond the world" or "after death".....The "kingdom of God" is not something men wait for: it had no yesterday and no day after tomorrow, it is not going to come at a "millennium" - it is an experience of the heart, it is everywhere and it is nowhere." (Nietzsche - 'The Anti-Christ')

[cousinbasil]

"The "kingdom of heaven" is a state of the heart - not something to come "beyond the world" or "after death".....The "kingdom of God" is not something men wait for: it had no yesterday and no day after tomorrow, it is not going to come at a "millennium" - it is an experience of the heart, it is everywhere and it is nowhere." (Nietzsche - 'The Anti-Christ')

If it is somewhere (over the rainbow) just not here, then it is neither everywhere nor nowhere.

[Alex Jacob]

And also:

• "This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see... I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough, ---I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race..." ---From 'The Anti-Christ' by Federico Nietzsche

I am beginning to wonder, Bob, why you would even wish to use the 'structure' of Christianity, and reference to it, in your project of wishing for, embodying, a whole man, alive to his very core? Given the many internal contradictions [of Judaism, and Christianity, its bastard child], wouldn't your ideas best be clothed, shrouded, in noble paganism? Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus?

• First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do. ---Epictetus

• Imagine for yourself a character, a model personality, whose example you determine to follow, in private as well as in public. ---Epictetus

• Never in any case say I have lost such a thing, but I have returned it. Is your child dead? It is a return. Is your wife dead? It is a return. Are you deprived of your estate? Is not this also a return? ---Epictetus

• The greater the difficulty the more glory in surmounting it. Skillful pilots gain their reputation from storms and tempests. ---Epictetus

• To accuse others for one's own misfortunes is a sign of want of education. To accuse oneself shows that one's education has begun. To accuse neither oneself nor others shows that one's education is complete. ---Epictetus

• Unless we place our religion and our treasure in the same thing, religion will always be sacrificed. ---Epictetus

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Yes, pure existentialism. This is the full quote:

• The "kingdom of Heaven" is a state of the heart - not something to come, "on the earth" or "after death". The whole concept of natural death is lacking in the Gospel: death is no bridge, no transition; it's lacking, because it belongs to a whole other, merely apparent, merely as symbol useful world. The "hour of death" is no Christian concept - "hour", time, physical life and its crises do not even exist at all for the teacher of the "glad tidings". The "kingdom of God" is not something one waits for: it has no yesterday and no day after tomorrow, it doesn't come in "thousand year" - it is an experience of a heart; it is everywhere, it is nowhere.

Original German I used to provide the best translation (only a slight change with Kaufmann).

• Das "Himmelreich" ist ein Zustand des Herzens - nicht Etwas, das "über der Erde" oder "nach dem Tode" kommt. Der ganze Begriff des natürlichen Todes fehlt im Evangelium: der Tod ist keine Brücke, kein Übergang, er fehlt, weil einer ganz andern bloß scheinbaren, bloß zu Zeichen nützlichen Welt zugehörig. Die "Todesstunde" ist kein christlicher Begriff - die "Stunde", die Zeit, das physische Leben und seine Krisen sind gar nicht vorhanden für den Lehrer der "frohen Botschaft" ... Das "Reich Gottes" ist nichts, das man erwartet; es hat kein Gestern und kein Übermorgen, es kommt nicht in "tausend Jahren" - es ist eine Erfahrung an einem Herzen; es ist überall da, es ist nirgends da ...

It might be interesting to venture further into the idea of these "feelings", as Nietzsche doesn't differentiate here. The paragraph earlier says: "the word 'son' expresses the entry into the over-all feeling of the transfiguration of all things (blessedness); the word 'father' expresses this feeling itself, the feeling of eternity, the feeling of perfection". (Kaufmann)

Are we talking about mystical states, an emotion or some kind of sense experience? What is the heart anyway?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Given the many internal contradictions [of Judaism, and Christianity, its bastard child], wouldn't your ideas best be clothed, shrouded, in noble paganism? Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus?

Christianity might be a bastard child but then a kitten from many tomcats, displaying a variety of exotic colors. (NB cats ovulate with multiple eggs)

As for stoism, wiki writes: (based mostly on the book Backgrounds of Early Christianity)

• Stoicism was later regarded by the Fathers of the Church as a 'pagan philosophy', nonetheless, some of the central philosophical concepts of Stoicism were employed by the early Christian writers. Examples include the terms "logos", "virtue", "Spirit", and "conscience". But the parallels go well beyond the sharing (or borrowing) of terminology. Both Stoicism and Christianity assert an inner freedom in the face of the external world, a belief in human kinship with Nature (or God), and a sense of the innate depravity—or "persistent evil"—of humankind. Both encourage askesis with respect to the passions and inferior emotions (viz. lust, envy and anger) so that the higher possibilities of one's humanity can be awakened and developed. The major difference between the two philosophies is Stoicism's pantheism where God is never fully transcendent but always immanent.

[Bob Michael]

"This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see... I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough, ---I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race..." ---From 'The Anti-Christ' by Federico Nietzsche

"If I wage war against Christianity I have a right to do so, because I have never experienced anything disagreeable or frustrating from that direction - the most serious Christians have always been well disposed towards me." (Nietzsche - 'Ecce Homo')

I am beginning to wonder, Bob, why you would even wish to use the 'structure' of Christianity, and reference to it, in your project of wishing for, embodying, a whole man, alive to his very core? Given the many internal contradictions [of Judaism, and Christianity, its bastard child], wouldn't your ideas best be clothed, shrouded, in noble paganism? Marcus Aurelius, Epictetus?

I began this thread in order to attempt to enlighten others, with another's words, as to the nature of the kingdom of heaven or God. I'm not necessarily using any 'structure', Alex. I often refer to the "kingdom of heaven/God" (a state of being that's understood or experienced by virtually no one) as the "kingdom of Love." Though I do find fundamental Christian (Christ) principles to be very sound, though similarly understood, incorporated, and propagated by virtually no one anywhere. They being rebirth (especially), repentance, soul purification, and then becoming one with the will of God. I too think Christianity's fundamental prophesies are also going to soon play themselves out. The coming of a man who is greater than Christ, a "New Jerusalem", and the "abomination that maketh desolate."

So in any case I move forward with these things foremost in mind, an ever open mind, along with the realization that "many are called, but few are chosen" and the reason for this tragic fact. Which Christ, and many others of all 'structures', never understood or perhaps more likely lacked the courage and stamina (or stomach) to fully grasp and accept.

I can appreciate the Epictetus quotes you posted, Alex. Which indicates to me there's nothing new under the sun. Though I wonder here whether Epictetus was a once-born or twice-born individual?

[Bob Michael]

If it is somewhere (over the rainbow) just not here, then it is neither everywhere nor nowhere.

"Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall not enter therein." (Mark 10:15)

[Robert]

Sounds more than a little ominous there Bob, all this talk of desolation and tragedy. Your opening quote has Nietzsche indicating that the Kingdom of Heaven is within us here and now, but your last posts have you saying that no one understands, propogates or incorporates Christ's principles.

Could you be a touch clearer? What does being re-born mean to you?

[Luke Breuer]

We agree that there are absolutes. We agree that there is some kind of force drawing us to them—at the very least, it is a good model. Now, supposing the power of this force depends on the purity and comprehensive nature of the absolutes, the most powerful delusion would be almost pure truth combined with only the slightest untruth. Once all accept your concoction as pure truth, you may add a bit more untruth. Looked at this way, one would expect the greatest abuses to be closest to the truth, at least in their inceptions.

[Beingof1]

When the understanding arrives that the center of consciousness is everywhere and its circumference is nowhere you are very, very close.

[Luke Breuer]

When the understanding arrives that the center of consciousness is everywhere and its circumference is nowhere you are very, very close.

You devalue the words "center" and "circumference", among other terms. That, or you probably could have chosen a better analogy.

[Bob Michael]

Sounds more than a little ominous there Bob, all this talk of desolation and tragedy. Your opening quote has Nietzsche indicating that the Kingdom of Heaven is within us here and now, but your last posts have you saying that no one understands, propogates or incorporates Christ's principles. Could you be a touch clearer? What does being re-born mean to you?

My experience is that the "Kingdom of God" is a rare state or dimension of being that can indeed exist in (or experienced by) some of us right here - right now, if and when a person's mind, body, and spirit happen to fall back into the 'natural state'. This could also be called a mystical dimension of being at least initially or until one becomes acclimated to it. One might also call it being in the World of the Spirit. Though it can only take place in a person, at least in an truly edifying and developmental manner, whose organism has been developed or conditioned in a finely-formed and highly-sensitive manner. Such an organism could be said to have been permanently imprinted with this natural state, though sooner or later life in our cold and brutal world will pull it out of that natural state. Which could also be called a state of pure-heartedness. Yet it is really or more practically a state of optimal neurological formation and development.

So being reborn or born again, and again from my own experience, is to fall back again to that natural state of mind, body, and spirit and then eventually coming to realize that in order to dwell continually in the "Kingdom of God" there needs to be a complete rebuilding of the organism (and especially the mind) in such a manner that one's every word, thought, and deed is prompted by God or Love, rather than from the old semi-conscious, thoughtless, and largely blind societally-conditioned action and reaction mode of functioning. One might say this is a transition from a machinelike human state of being to a state of full and authentic human being. Though if this rebirth is to ever take place one must come to deeply realize that he's functioning largely like an machine or a robot. But if he lacks keen organismal sensitivity it is very unlikely that he'll realize this nor will a genuine rebirth experience ever take place either.

Being "born again" was another requirement necessary in order to "see" or enter into the "Kingdom of God", according to Christ. And I fully agree as I've tried my best to explain above.

And yes, I stand firm in my view that very, very few people understand and above all FULLY LIVE Christ's simple teachings. And also that the "abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 12:11) is soon ahead. Christ spoke of "desolation and tragedy" taking place in his own time (Matt. 24), but of course it's clear that he was wrong. I may be too, yet I really don't think so. Unlike in his day we now have the means to destroy much of the planet earth and the human species with ease. Along with my observation that our human world cannot get much darker and humanly lifeless than it presently is.

While I was writing this I couldn't help but to think of U. G. Krishnamurti, since I got the term 'natural state" from him. Along with the realization that I have a far better understanding of this rebirth process or falling back to one's natural state than he did.

Lastly, the following line of Paul has come to speak volumes to me along the above lines:

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye 'transformed' by the 'renewing of your mind' that ye 'may prove' what is that good, and acceptable, and 'perfect, will of God'." (Romans 12:2)

[Robert]

Being "born again" was another requirement necessary in order to "see" or enter into the "Kingdom of God", according to Christ. And I fully agree as I've tried my best to explain above.

From what you said above about rebirth (which I understand to mean becoming fully conscious of change), what do you mean by this additional requirement, this another, according to Christ? Why is it so important that Jesus said this? Does it matter who says it?

And yes, I stand firm in my view that very, very few people understand and above all FULLY LIVE Christ's simple teachings. And also that the "abomination that maketh desolate" (Daniel 12:11) is soon ahead. Christ spoke of "desolation and tragedy" taking place in his own time (Matt. 24), but of course it's clear that he was wrong. I may be too, yet I really don't think so. Unlike in his day we now have the means to destroy much of the planet earth and the human species with ease. Along with my observation that our human world cannot get much darker and humanly lifeless than it presently is.

If Christ was wrong about desolation and tragedy taking place in his own time, how sure can you be that it'll happen at any time? Yes, we have the means, and someone may have the will for desolation and tragedy to happen, but there are no guarantees that anything like that will happen. Even if it does, what can you do about it? Wouldn't it be the perfect will of God?

[Alex Jacob]

Robert, can Jimmy Rodgers possibly help you?

Here's a lovely version.

Here's a typical scene from down in MY neck o' the woods.

Git yerself a Bible, son, and studdy up!

This one goes out to Diebert.

[Robert]

Robert, can Jimmy Rodgers possibly help you?

Sure. And maybe Dan could add it to his repertoire, if he hasn't already.

[Bob Michael]

From what you said above about rebirth (which I understand to mean becoming fully conscious of change), what do you mean by this additional requirement, this another, according to Christ? Why is it so important that Jesus said this? Does it matter who says it?

It doesn't matter who said these things. Though the topic phrases were coined by Christ. The point I was trying to make was that besides Christ saying that unless a person becomes like a little child he cannot receive (enter into) the "Kingdom of God", he also stated that a man must also be born again in order to gain kingdom entry. He also said repentance was necessary. So here we have the simple fundamental teachings of Christ. 'Repentance' (the deep realization of one's wretchedness - or a deep sense of the meaninglessness of life as being lived), 'rebirth' (a complete psychic change or a radical shift of conscience or consciousness), 'unending soul or organismal purification' (the return to childlikeness or purity of mind and heart - rehabilitation of the intuitive faculty) and 'conformance to the will of God' (becoming one with God, the Infinite, the Source, Evolution's Master Plan, etc).

If Christ was wrong about desolation and tragedy taking place in his own time, how sure can you be that it'll happen at any time? Yes, we have the means, and someone may have the will for desolation and tragedy to happen, but there are no guarantees that anything like that will happen. Even if it does, what can you do about it? Wouldn't it be the perfect will of God?

I've already given two good reasons. Though my 70 years on the planet, half of them while being reasonably awake to reality and the other half being ever more clearly awake to reality also clearly indicates to me that the present human scheme of things cannot go on too much longer for several reasons. And yes, the 'abomination that maketh desolate' will be a manifestation of the perfect will of God, as you suggest. And my task at hand is to be also conformed to that will and gather together and create a body of genuinely transformed human beings who will go on to propagate a relatively small portion of the finished or perfected human species forward after the necessary grand human self-destruction takes place. And if the grand nuclear conflagration doesn't come in my time I shall still continue on with my part in the Master Plan. Quite frankly it brings me great joy and a real sense of purpose in life. Though there occasionally comes times of a grave feeling of vanity and hopelessness.

[Luke Breuer]

And if the grand nuclear conflagration doesn't come in my time I shall still continue on with my part in the Master Plan.

Have you articulated, elsewhere, on what your part is?

[Bob Michael]

Have you articulated, elsewhere, on what your part is?

Yes, creating a body of radically transformed men and women who will bring the Light of love, truth, and understanding into our dark and decaying world. Of course the world really won't want to see such a thing so it will be esoteric in nature. Something along the lines of what J. Krishnamurti set out to do early on but never managed to accomplish:

"But those who really desire to understand (those with the innate capacity for understanding - mine), who are looking to find that which is eternal, without a beginning and without an end, will walk together with greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that true friendship - which you do not seem to know - there will be real co-operation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice." (J. Krishnamurti - 'Dissolution Speech' - 1929)

[Robert]

Bob, you remind me something Sam Harris wrote:
"Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen—the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves—socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically." Source

Though there occasionally comes times of a grave feeling of vanity and hopelessness.

Of course you feel that way, since it seems you're a frightened man yearning for some sort of lost childhood that's long gone. Which is hardly a good enough reason for the rest of us to pay for your individual insanity, you crazy bastard.

[Bob Michael]

Bob, you remind me something Sam Harris wrote: "Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen—the return of Christ.

I don't subscribe to any of these views and remain set on my simple game plan, which I've layed out elsewhere herein.

It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves—socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically."

There are no human answers to the wall-to-wall human madness. We fill our heads and our pocketbooks with ideas and blueprints for world reform and never look to that one and only resolving factor, which is Love.

Of course you feel that way, since it seems you're a frightened man yearning for some sort of lost childhood that's long gone. Which is hardly a good enough reason for the rest of us to pay for your individual insanity, you crazy bastard.

This sort of assessment is to be expected. Nevertheless I continue to trudge forward in step with 'the', not 'my', Master Plan.

[Luke Breuer]

something Sam Harris wrote:
"Forty-four percent of the American population is convinced that Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead sometime in the next fifty years. According to the most common interpretation of biblical prophecy, Jesus will return only after things have gone horribly awry here on earth. It is, therefore, not an exaggeration to say that if the city of New York were suddenly replaced by a ball of fire, some significant percentage of the American population would see a silver lining in the subsequent mushroom cloud, as it would suggest to them that the best thing that is ever going to happen was about to happen—the return of Christ. It should be blindingly obvious that beliefs of this sort will do little to help us create a durable future for ourselves—socially, economically, environmentally, or geopolitically." Source

If Sam Harris were astute, he would know how applicable the parable of the two sons and the final judgment are, not to mention Matthew 24:36-51. Also see:

Woe to you who desire the day of the Lord!
/Why would you have the day of the Lord?
It is darkness, and not light,
/as if a man fled from a lion,
/and a bear met him,
or went into the house and leaned his hand against the wall,
/and a serpent bit him.
Is not the day of the Lord darkness, and not light,
/and gloom with no brightness in it?

(Silly failure to implement  !)

An even mildly astute Biblical scholar can make a much better, much more biting, criticism than Sam Harris. Please do not heap criticism on scripture which is really due horrific interpretations thereof.

Of course you feel that way, since it seems you're a frightened man yearning for some sort of lost childhood that's long gone. Which is hardly a good enough reason for the rest of us to pay for your individual insanity, you crazy bastard.

Would you be willing to be a bit more precise with what you mean by “childhood”? If you mean certain plastic properties of the brain which have long been assumed to “harden” as one matures, you might be surprised. If you believe that Bob is being insane, you would do everyone a favor by being specific and precise, versus by lobbing ad hominems. The former has promise of increasing the knowledge and wisdom contained in these forms; the latter threatens to increase groupthink.

[Luke Breuer]

Yes, creating a body of radically transformed men and women who will bring the Light of love, truth, and understanding into our dark and decaying world.

This is a very high-level description. I could fill “Light of love”, “truth”, and “understanding” with my own definitions, but I don’t know if they would match yours. (My definitions largely come from what I like to call a fairly comprehensive and consistent view of the Protestant Bible, although I do not deny that some amount of truth can be found in other places, both religious and secular.) Would you be willing to flesh out what you mean with at least a few paragraphs of your own words?

[Robert]

An even mildly astute Biblical scholar can make a much better, much more biting, criticism than Sam Harris. Please do not heap criticism on scripture which is really due horrific interpretations thereof.

Harris' criticism was of those who make those interpretations and who come to certain conclusions, not of scripture itself.

Would you be willing to be a bit more precise with what you mean by “childhood”?

In Bob's response; "The point I was trying to make was that besides Christ saying that unless a person becomes like a little child he cannot receive (enter into) the "Kingdom of God", he also stated that a man must also be born again in order to gain kingdom entry." Becoming 'like a little child' can have meaning, like your wiki article shows, and I wouldn't agrue against that. I'm not sure that was expressed in Bob's response in this way, but it is possible to make that inference from his words (with some work). What I mean by childhood in this context is that it's hardly an encouragment of thought, of reasoned inquiry into what becoming 'like a little child' could mean, especially when it's followed by thoughts about "the necessary grand human self-destruction" and "grand nuclear conflagration". The end of days / rapture types are a dime a dozen, I don't see much wisdom in the mess of confused meanings that Bob is conveying here.

If you believe that Bob is being insane, you would do everyone a favor by being specific and precise, versus by lobbing ad hominems.

Well, if Bob can explain to us in a reasoned and rational manner what becoming 'like a little child' means without it ending up being some mess of vague appeals to emotional states of non thought, or if he can make the determination between love and unconditional love, then I'll gladly take back my accusation of insanity. How's that?

[Bob Michael]

I could fill “Light of love”, “truth”, and “understanding” with my own definitions, but I don’t know if they would match yours. (My definitions largely come from what I like to call a fairly comprehensive and consistent view of the Protestant Bible, although I do not deny that some amount of truth can be found in other places, both religious and secular.) Would you be willing to flesh out what you mean with at least a few paragraphs of your own words?

The keenly sensitive and awakened soul who has fully removed his rose-colored glasses finds to his horror, and of course acceptance - if he can stomach the scene, that everywhere on earth, just beneath all the false smiles, mutual exploitation, and fine-sounding words, people are essentially cold, callous, violent, and self-centered human beings. Thoroughly immersed in and driven by the 'seven deadly sins', if you will. Hence love, in the purest sense of the word, is virtually unknown and fully lived by no one, as is the same case with truth and understanding. And those few who are in fact built to rise above it all and then go on to live a life of love, truth, and understanding are hopelessly stuck in the wall-to-wall human chaos and insanity with virtually little or no hope of climbing out of it by themselves. Hence there's a need for a perfect living embodiment, mirror, or Light of these things to appear if there's ever to be a collectivity of people who are truly and fully immersed in and motivated by love, truth, and understanding. Which is to also be fully human, fully alive, fully 'Spirit'.

Let me offer the simple point I'm trying to make here with Schopenhauer's paralleling worldview:

"Everyone who has awakened from the first dream of youth will realize, if his judgment is not paralyzed, that this world is the kingdom of chance and error, of folly and wickedness. Hence, everything better only struggles through with difficulty. What is noble and wise seldom attains to expression. The absurd and perverse in thought, the dull and tasteless in art, the wicked and deceitful in action, assert a real supremacy broken only by brief interuptions. In vain the sufferer calls on his gods for help. This irremediable evil is only the mirror of the will, of which himself is the objectification. To me, optimism, when it is not merely the thoughtless verbalizing of those who have nothing but words under their low foreheads, is not merely absurd; it is wicked. It is a bitter mockery of the unspeakable misery of mankind. To me, as to the writers of the Gospels, the 'world' and 'evil' are almost synonynous terms." (Arthur Schopenhauer)

However, I differ here with Schopenhauer in that I find that "everything better" never makes it through at all. Certainly not fully and completely, as was the case with Schopenhauer himself, good a soul as he may have been.

Biblically speaking let me offer this here: "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates to the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie." (Rev. 22:14,15)

And once again and finally, I see no one anywhere entering into the 'city'. Along with a reminder here by Nietzsche that Christ came, "not to 'save mankind', but to show mankind 'how to live'." That is until he grew tired of it all and chose to go 'home'.

[Bob Michael]

If you mean certain plastic properties of the brain which have long been assumed to “harden” as one matures, you might be surprised.

I feel this idea of "Neuroplasticity" is little more than high-minded and wishful thinking. My view is that if love and warm human tenderness and gentleness are not firmly wired into an organism in the early development years, that organism will never be or become genuinely and fully human under any circumstances. I too believe that even a finely-formed and highly-sensitive organism will definitely deteriorate and atrophy if a radical rebirth or breakthrough is not made in time. Usually at mid-life or perhaps earlier in some cases.