Consciousness, memory and perception:

[jupiviv]

Continued from another thread.

Diebert - And in case you bring up concept, this is nothing but a model or matrix which a computer memory holds as well and sometimes displays on a screen. For example the avatar icon representing yourself, or a username representing your identity.

Jupiviv - A rock has memory too - e.g., a pebble may hold the memory of the waves of a river, or of a tree in a forest existing as one of the components of the rock. What differentiates the rock's memory from the memory of a conscious being?

Diebert - Nothing, there's only a difference in capacity and speed. Consciousness seems but an artifact of this. A rocky sediment has been called slow life by some, perhaps one could also call it low consciousness. If you talk slow and loud enough it might actually "hear" you, that is: influenced by you and react.

This is where I should have directly pointed out that what you're saying doesn't make sense. It's not clear what you mean by memory, by capacity and speed of memory, and consciousness being an artifact of that greater capacity and speed. You're also not clear about what you mean by "slow life", and haven't given any reasons why it can be called "low consciousness" because of that. You've also not clarified why a rock reacting to circumstances is "hearing", and why that should lead us to believe that it has life or consciousness.

Unless you clarify these things, the discussion will go nowhere.

For my part, I'm defining once again what I mean by consciousness, memory and perception. Consciousness is simply all concepts. Memory also comprises of concepts(things that have appeared to us in the past). "Perception" would be most logically defined as the appearance of a thing to mind, which would also be a concept. It is possible to distinguish perception from memory on the basis that perception is about things in the present, and memory is about things in the past, so it may be said that memory and perception are both elements of consciousness.

[Entity]

Rocks have memory? lol

[DHodges]

Again with the rocks.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Sorry, I overlooked this topic!

Jupiviv, do you think consciousness is caused? And which elements could be some of these probable causes?

Ha Hodges, yes, it's always those damn rocks which won't move (much).

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Rocks have memory? lol

Rocks are memory!

[jupiviv]

Jupiviv, do you think consciousness is caused? And which elements could be some of these probable causes?

It is caused if you think of it in a particular philosophical way. Eg., it may be said to be caused by everything apart from it, or it may be divided into parts, so that each of the parts would cause it by being together as consciousness. I find it useful to divide consciousness into all the particular things that appear to consciousness - each of those appearances causes consciousness.

[cousinbasil]

Jupiviv, do you think consciousness is caused? And which elements could be some of these probable causes?

Excuse me for butting in, but of course consciousness is caused. Every thing has a cause.

And jupiviv, sorry that I have been misspelling your moniker. I have just donned the stronger reading glasses which I have been stubbornly resisting. I am afraid I will have to start spelling everything correctly now.

Glasses or no, I see you are still saying this:

I find it useful to divide consciousness into all the particular things that appear to consciousness - each of those appearances causes consciousness.

I have been trying to pin you down about this and you thought you could escape me by creating a separate thread. Are you saying that each of these appearances causes consciousness, or is an instance of conscious?

[jupiviv]

I find it useful to divide consciousness into all the particular things that appear to consciousness - each of those appearances causes consciousness.

I have been trying to pin you down about this and you thought you could escape me by creating a separate thread. Are you saying that each of these appearances causes consciousness, or is an instance of conscious?

In this case those appearances are all part of consciousness, which is all the appearances taken together.

[Beingof1]

Cousin:

Excuse me for butting in, but of course consciousness is caused. Every thing has a cause.

Except consciousness is not a 'thing'.

[cousinbasil]

Cousin:

Excuse me for butting in, but of course consciousness is caused. Every thing has a cause.

Except consciousness is not a 'thing'.

If I had said "everything has a cause," it could have been taken as meaning "the Totality has a cause." I deliberately separated the words "every" and "thing," but it seems that had its pitfall as well.

Bof1, if you are saying consciousness is not a thing like the sun is a thing, I would answer that they are both things but of different kinds.

If consciousness is not a thing in the same sense as the sun, that does not imply it is not caused. Is that your contention, that consciousness is not caused? I think it self-evident that if all things are caused, consciousness is no exception.

[cousinbasil]

I find it useful to divide consciousness into all the particular things that appear to consciousness - each of those appearances causes consciousness.

In this case those appearances are all part of consciousness, which is all the appearances taken together

You are more specific in the second quote, which makes more sense to me. In the first, you are dividing conscious into things that appear to it, as if the things themselves are part of consciousness; then you say that the appearance of each thing causes consciousness, as if the appearance and consciousness were not the same thing.

I suspected you meant more like the second quote, that the appearances are what you find it useful to divide conscious into, not the things that give rise to the appearances (or that "appear to consciousness."). Then it makes more sense (to me) to see consciousness as those appearances taken together.

But when I look at things that way, I am tempted to start separating those things out one by one and seeing what, if anything, remains.

Since part of the title of this thread is "perception," let's start there. If you eliminate as many perceptions as possible by curtailing the supply, consciousness remains. A subject inside a sensory deprivation chamber has not had his consciousness shut down. A person who meditates is usually trying to turn away from externally originating perceptions with the mindset that minimizing them will actually augment his awareness.

So I think we can say that perceptions and consciousness are not the same thing. That would lead me to believe that all the things that appear together, which you say is consciousness itself, must be more than perceptions but must include perceptions. Therefore, things that are not perceptions must appear and constitute a part of consciousness.

[Beingof1]

Cousin:

Excuse me for butting in, but of course consciousness is caused. Every thing has a cause.

Except consciousness is not a 'thing'.

If I had said "everything has a cause," it could have been taken as meaning "the Totality has a cause." I deliberately separated the words "every" and "thing," but it seems that had its pitfall as well.

It does not matter because either way you go every single thing has a cause. Consciousness is not a 'thing' because it contains all things.

Bof1, if you are saying consciousness is not a thing like the sun is a thing, I would answer that they are both things but of different kinds.

Nope; all things are contained by consciousness. There is not a single thing that is separated or outside of consciousness, that is not logically possible.

Therefore all things are contained by your consciousness.

If consciousness is not a thing in the same sense as the sun, that does not imply it is not caused. Is that your contention, that consciousness is not caused? I think it self-evident that if all things are caused, consciousness is no exception.

Can you tell me where the universe begins and your consciousness ends?

[cousinbasil]

Nope; all things are contained by consciousness. There is not a single thing that is separated or outside of consciousness, that is not logically possible.

Therefore all things are contained by your consciousness.

What about the things contained by your consciousness?

Can you tell me where the universe begins and your consciousness ends?

You are implying a continuum of some kind (unless you are asking two separate questions.) My consciousnesses is a part of the universe.

[Dennis Mahar]

consciousness....such a fickle phenomenon

fall asleep..it's gone
add a few chemicals..it's gone
hit the head...it's gone

comes and goes conditionally

[Blair]

And even at its best, it ain't worth JS.

[cousinbasil]

add a few chemicals..it's gone

That entirely depends on the chemical.

[jupiviv]

you are dividing conscious into things that appear to it, as if the things themselves are part of consciousness

The things that appear to it are the appearances. The appearance of a thing isn't the thing itself.

then you say that the appearance of each thing causes consciousness, as if the appearance and consciousness were not the same thing.

The appearances are part of consciousness, in this case, so each appearance is wholly consciousness, but consciousness isn't wholly that appearance. But it is also possible to think of each appearance as being consciousness in itself.

[cousinbasil]

But it is also possible to think of each appearance as being consciousness in itself.

I suppose this makes sense in that if nothing were appearing, there would be no consciousness.

Dennis had a point about the fickleness of consciousness. One can acquire a memory while at least apparently unconscious, as post-op patients can recall things said in the OR while they were under anesthesia.

I am not referring to subliminal messaging, although I think there has been ample evidence that such messaging can happen. One's consciousness , it seems, rarely spans the entire range of sensory input. Things get in that you cannot recall letting in. A memory need not have been in one's consciousness during its formation.

[Dennis Mahar]

prince,

And even at its best, it ain't worth JS.

16 hour days x 70 years.
life sentence.
chemical/electrical synaptic firing.
it's a thing
contingent
don't worry about it
empty


bas,

One can acquire a memory while at least apparently unconscious, as post-op patients can recall things said in the OR while they were under anesthesia.

MRI scans show that as various brain circuits shut down and the sense of 'me' goes away, there remains a standby mode, recording and monitoring, ever alert, like a noise can rouse and 'me' comes back.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I find it useful to divide consciousness into all the particular things that appear to consciousness - each of those appearances causes consciousness.

But we have to make some selection of course, as we cannot say "everything" or "the All" caused this or that - in that case all things would remain equal and no creation would occur.

Then I'd ask you to make a selection of probable causes to consciousness, and then I'll ask you in how far these causes are unique to your consciousness or if we can talk about a "degree" of how something can manifest. Like gravity manifests when an object falls over, but gravity appears to manifest way more strongly to us when the object is large and the distance of falling and the impact increases or when large bodies orbit each other. Yet science tells us gravity still manifests at the smallest scales of matter.

I hope I made it clear which direction I've tried to take this discussion.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

MRI scans show that as various brain circuits shut down and the sense of 'me' goes away, there remains a standby mode, recording and monitoring, ever alert, like a noise can rouse and 'me' comes back.

It's hard to measure a "sense of me" because we only have the memory of a lab-animal, human or not, to prove this. It's not a scientific measurement, this "sense of me".

The standby mode, would it be any different from a plant registering temperature, humidity, vibration or speech? Which point is proven with this mode, apart from organisms registering stuff and reacting to it with what is deemed beneficial to the plant?

[cousinbasil]

The standby mode, would it be any different from a plant registering temperature, humidity, vibration or speech? Which point is proven with this mode, apart from organisms registering stuff and reacting to it with what is deemed beneficial to the plant?

Can the plant later repeat the speech back? Can the plant at any time interpret the speech?

The point is that information received when one is on standby mode is not processed at that time. If it ever is processed, it may be done so at a later seemingly random time, with a meaning or awareness flashing into one's consciousness unbidden, divorced from its original context so that one may have no idea what to make of it. It may manifest as unnamed anxiety or irrational fear.

[jupiviv]

But we have to make some selection of course, as we cannot say "everything" or "the All" caused this or that - in that case all things would remain equal and no creation would occur.

I'm not saying the All causes consciousness, but the appearance of everything else except consciousness, to consciousness. I think this is the best definition of consciousness for the purposes of philosophy. The causes that you are talking about would be the causes of a particular consciousness(which itself must appear to another consciousness), and must be dealt with by science. I'm only interested in a philosophical discussion in this case, and not a scientific one.

Moreover, even if someone investigates these causes, he still couldn't understand consciousness. He'll only understand the particular causes of it. Such an investigation must proceed from the assumption that consciousness is there in the thing investigated, and not the other way round(trying to find out the consciousness of a thing by investigating its causes). Otherwise it will go nowhere.

[Beingof1]

Nope; all things are contained by consciousness. There is not a single thing that is separated or outside of consciousness, that is not logically possible.

Therefore all things are contained by your consciousness.

What about the things contained by your consciousness?

Exactly - all things, including the sun.

Can you tell me where the universe begins and your consciousness ends?

You are implying a continuum of some kind (unless you are asking two separate questions.) My consciousnesses is a part of the universe.

No - your consciousness is the universe.

C=dA+A^A

Consciousness and the universe are identical.


Dennis Mahar wrote:

consciousness....such a fickle phenomenon

fall asleep..it's gone
add a few chemicals..it's gone
hit the head...it's gone

comes and goes conditionally

When you can design the quantum supercomputer known as your brain, you may then say you 'know' the causes of consciousness.

Tell me; can you tell us when you were not?

[cousinbasil]

No - your consciousness is the universe.

C=dA+A^A

Consciousness and the universe are identical.

What does your equation here mean?

If my consciousness is the universe and your consciousness is the universe then my consciousness is identical with your consciousness. You see why I have a problem with that.