Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Nick
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Nick »

awakeninggenius wrote:Well perhaps YOU then are just what Kelly has been looking for all her life. And she, you. Worth considering.
I don't think it is.
awakeninggenius wrote:So the Middle Way is about having one foot in heaven and the other in the grave??
A little of truth and a little illusion?
No. It's about leading a life that allows for a mindset to arise that is most conducive to achieving greater clarity of consciousness and enlightenment.
awakeninggenius wrote:As to engaging people and fucking them to resolve lonliness id say that the aspirant best keep the contact to an essential minimum, a philosopher is inviting problems to seek out a girlfriend as opposed to just a girl, a relationship instead of just a vagina or other orifice.
All things of this nature have their pitfalls.
awakeninggenius wrote:And do understand that awakened people would not ordinarily be compelled to resort to either solution, for there would be nothing left to resolve. (In case one has any doubts about their realization, or lack thereof as the case may be)
It's not about a lack of realization. It's simply about dealing with one's ego in a practical manner.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Kelly,
I really don't care that it's impossible. I still must do whatever I can, simply because that is the call of truth. Who cares if one is of low scope? That's nature's business. Nature never guaranteed one would be perfect, simply by having the will to truth.
My main point is that there is a lot of idealism as part of the 'absolute truth' package, but if that idealism cannot manifest as realism, I don't see its usefulness. It is like a short man who believes one day he will be 6 foot tall if he merely believes it is possible and develops a certain of faith in logic in order to get him there. The problem is that he could be destined to merely be a short man for his entire life, and if this is his destiny, he might as well accept his plight, and live his life merely as a man.

I forget what philosopher it was, but they said something to the effect of, "some men become obsessed with trying to be great, but forget on how to just live and be men"
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Kelly Jones »

Ryan,

It's hard to know precisely where you're coming from, but I'll go with a hunch and say, one shouldn't really worry about gaining the experience of enlightenment, or attaining a level where manifestations of ego are mostly gone. It's a lifelong endeavour, and one just goes as far as one is caused to go, which also happens to depend on how much effort one puts into it.

Hakuin often has helpful things to say to kickstart things:

Only a few hundred yards from here is a beach. Suppose that someone is bothered because he has never experienced the taste of sea water and decides to sample it for himself. He sets out for the beach but before he has gone a hundred paces he stops and comes back; then he starts out again but this time he returns after he has taken only ten steps. He will never know the taste of sea water that way, will he? But if he keeps going straight ahead without turning back, it doesn't even matter if he lives far inland in a landlocked province such as Shinano, Kai, Hida, or Mino, he will still eventually reach the sea. Then, by dipping his finger in the water and tasting it, he will know in an instant what sea water tastes like the world over, because it is of course the same everywhere, in India, China, the great southern sea or the great northern sea.

Those Dharma patricians who explore the secret depths are like this too. They go straight forward, boring into their own minds with unbroken effort, never letting up or retreating. Then the breakthrough suddenly comes, and with that they penetrate their own nature, the natures of others, the nature of sentient beings, the nature of the evil passions and of enlightenment, the nature of the Buddha nature, the god nature, the Bodhisattva nature, the sentient being nature, the non-sentient being nature, the craving ghost nature, the contentious spirit nature, the beast nature - they are all of them seen in a single instant of thought. The great matter of their religious quest is thus completely and utterly resolved. There is nothing left. They are free of birth and death. What a thrilling moment it is!

It's exactly the same idea expressed, in many ways, by Kevin:
Push On!

Don't side step, push-on! Don't stop for a rest, push-on!

A marathon runner knows it is better to decrease the tempo, yet maintain a steady pace and momentum, than to be stopping and starting. Never refrain from the battle for a moment: be a foe-destroyer. Begin by cutting down the forest of desires (gross delusions), and then the undergrowth (the subtle delusions) . . . then! . . .

Consecrate yourselves earnestly to your work, for even little drops of water, falling ceaselessly will finally make a hole, even in a rock. - Buddha
The practice of the Way is like making fire by friction. The essential thing as you rub wood against stone is to apply continuous all-out effort. If you stop when you see the first trace of smoke, you will never get even a flicker of fire, even though you may rub away for a thousand years.
Encourage the children
Some know much, but not enough for joy. They know what is false, but not what is true. They seek truth, but not perfection. They sacrifice much, but not their suffering. They give much, but not their life. They love truth, but will not become that love.

I tell you, the children must be encouraged. If you tell them "nobody is perfect" they will not seek perfection. If you tell them that some things cannot be known, they will not try to know them. If you tell them they must be human, they will remain human. I beg of you, my brothers and sisters, give me a Superman!

When a child thinks they have reached the pinnacle, in academia or in sport, then show them where they stand in relation to the eternal - thus encouraging them onwards. If you let them settle with grand ideas of themselves they will resent you later on. For there will be a rude awakening, and they will be ill-equipped to cope with it. But point to the horizon, and urge them forth, and their humility alone will be sufficient to forge a path and propel them along it.

So just make sure you teach by example and seek only the supreme joy of wisdom. Do you have it in you to pass-up the joys of talent? Oh how success cripples!
Joy
The joyful wisdom is not achieved through controlling lust. Lust itself vanishes with even a single breath of the true joyful wisdom.

"If you can harmonize and delight in all things, master them and never be at a loss for joy, if you can do this day and night without a break and make it be spring with everything, mingling with all and creating the moment within your own mind - this is what I call being whole in power." - Chuang Tzu
It is said to be important to train the mind in concentration. Yet I say to you, train yourself to love the truth with all your heart! Then you will have no need of concentration, for the mind sticks inseparably and quite naturally to whatever it truly loves. If you find joy in a lover, then nothing can distract you from thinking about your lover. Likewise, if you love God, then you will not allow God to leave. It is not enough to love concentration, for then you will be forever focused on concentration, and will forget God.

You see, concentration by itself brings happiness, but not Truth; whereas love of Truth brings both concentration and Truth without effort. Love is warm, while concentration is cold by comparison. Concentration must become effortless, as it only can with love. So be wary of training, for you do not need to train yourself to eat lovely chocolate!
Enjoying dreams

Practice enjoying dreams, in the knowlege that they are not real and cannot harm you. In this way, you can come to an idea of how the dream of waking life is to be enjoyed (though in an infinitely purer sense).

Life is a dream - sharpen it up! Enjoy it with the joy of wisdom. If your eyes become tired and deflated then pump them up again with love of Truth.
Occasionally, Kevin comes up to my place. Sometimes he goes for a drive, exploring the area, and invites me along. If it's been a long day, and he doesn't have to head south immediately, he stays overnight, sleeping on the floor in the bedsit. He brings his own foam mattress for such emergencies. One such morning, when we'd both awoken, I asked him about his experience of dreams, and how he deals with the karma that has seeped into the unguarded mind overnight. He said much the same as the above: he enjoys dreams.



A couple of faves from Kierkegaard:
Truth is not something you can appropriate easily and quickly. You certainly cannot sleep or dream yourself into the truth. No, you must be tried, do battle, and suffer if you are to acquire truth for yourself. It is a sheer illusion to think that in relation to truth there is an abridgment, a short cut that dispenses with the necessity of struggling for it. With respect to acquiring truth to live by, every generation and every individual essentially begin from the beginning.


[Included that for the joke about enjoying "dreams", and "dreaming oneself into the truth".]
Some birds take off quietly and neatly from the branch on which they are perching and ascend heavenward in their flight, proudly, boldly. Others, like crows, for example, make a big fuss when they are about to fly. They lift one foot and then promptly grab on again, and no flight takes place.
Truth has always had many loud proclaimers, but the question is whether a person will in the deepest sense acknowledge the truth, allow it to permeate his whole being, accept all its consequences, and not have an emergency hiding place for himself and a Judas kiss for the consequence.

Fluctuations - karma - emotions - etc. are not something to worry about. Just note them, seeing them as a sign of something to work on, and move on. One just does what one can.


..
awakeninggenius
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by awakeninggenius »

Nick Treklis wrote:
awakeninggenius wrote:Well perhaps YOU then are just what Kelly has been looking for all her life. And she, you. Worth considering.
I don't think it is.
Watch it! you may hurt her feelings...
awakeninggenius wrote:So the Middle Way is about having one foot in heaven and the other in the grave??
A little of truth and a little illusion?
No. It's about leading a life that allows for a mindset to arise that is most conducive to achieving greater clarity of consciousness and enlightenment.
ok. well thats a relief!
awakeninggenius wrote:As to engaging people and fucking them to resolve lonliness id say that the aspirant best keep the contact to an essential minimum, a philosopher is inviting problems to seek out a girlfriend as opposed to just a girl, a relationship instead of just a vagina or other orifice.
All things of this nature have their pitfalls.
yes of course
awakeninggenius wrote:And do understand that awakened people would not ordinarily be compelled to resort to either solution, for there would be nothing left to resolve. (In case one has any doubts about their realization, or lack thereof as the case may be)
It's not about a lack of realization. It's simply about dealing with one's ego in a practical manner.
Sure but, the best way to deal with ones ego if one must deal with it is, to really believe you have the power to put it out of its misery, and then to do exactly that,,, what other way is there, there is no other way, and anyone who has done so, any sage at all, knows this well.
You may as well, one may as well turn to some worldly occupation (temporarily at least) if you're not prepared to deal with egotism ruthlessly, as an executioner.
No sense in flopping around and hoping for the best, not in philosophy.
It doesnt work that way.
Literally, it doesnt work.
awakeninggenius
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by awakeninggenius »

Kelly Jones wrote:Ryan,

It's hard to know precisely where you're coming from, but I'll go with a hunch and say, one shouldn't really worry about gaining the experience of enlightenment, or attaining a level where manifestations of ego are mostly gone. It's a lifelong endeavour, and one just goes as far as one is caused to go, which also happens to depend on how much effort one puts into it.

Hakuin often has helpful things to say to kickstart things:

Only a few hundred yards from here is a beach. Suppose that someone is bothered because he has never experienced the taste of sea water and decides to sample it for himself. He sets out for the beach but before he has gone a hundred paces he stops and comes back; then he starts out again but this time he returns after he has taken only ten steps. He will never know the taste of sea water that way, will he? But if he keeps going straight ahead without turning back, it doesn't even matter if he lives far inland in a landlocked province such as Shinano, Kai, Hida, or Mino, he will still eventually reach the sea. Then, by dipping his finger in the water and tasting it, he will know in an instant what sea water tastes like the world over, because it is of course the same everywhere, in India, China, the great southern sea or the great northern sea.

Those Dharma patricians who explore the secret depths are like this too. They go straight forward, boring into their own minds with unbroken effort, never letting up or retreating. Then the breakthrough suddenly comes, and with that they penetrate their own nature, the natures of others, the nature of sentient beings, the nature of the evil passions and of enlightenment, the nature of the Buddha nature, the god nature, the Bodhisattva nature, the sentient being nature, the non-sentient being nature, the craving ghost nature, the contentious spirit nature, the beast nature - they are all of them seen in a single instant of thought. The great matter of their religious quest is thus completely and utterly resolved. There is nothing left. They are free of birth and death. What a thrilling moment it is!

It's exactly the same idea expressed, in many ways, by Kevin:
This should get you big points!
Push On!

Don't side step, push-on! Don't stop for a rest, push-on!

A marathon runner knows it is better to decrease the tempo, yet maintain a steady pace and momentum, than to be stopping and starting. Never refrain from the battle for a moment: be a foe-destroyer. Begin by cutting down the forest of desires (gross delusions), and then the undergrowth (the subtle delusions) . . . then! . . .

Consecrate yourselves earnestly to your work, for even little drops of water, falling ceaselessly will finally make a hole, even in a rock. - Buddha
The practice of the Way is like making fire by friction. The essential thing as you rub wood against stone is to apply continuous all-out effort. If you stop when you see the first trace of smoke, you will never get even a flicker of fire, even though you may rub away for a thousand years.
Encourage the children
Some know much, but not enough for joy. They know what is false, but not what is true. They seek truth, but not perfection. They sacrifice much, but not their suffering. They give much, but not their life. They love truth, but will not become that love.

I tell you, the children must be encouraged. If you tell them "nobody is perfect" they will not seek perfection. If you tell them that some things cannot be known, they will not try to know them. If you tell them they must be human, they will remain human. I beg of you, my brothers and sisters, give me a Superman!

When a child thinks they have reached the pinnacle, in academia or in sport, then show them where they stand in relation to the eternal - thus encouraging them onwards. If you let them settle with grand ideas of themselves they will resent you later on. For there will be a rude awakening, and they will be ill-equipped to cope with it. But point to the horizon, and urge them forth, and their humility alone will be sufficient to forge a path and propel them along it.

So just make sure you teach by example and seek only the supreme joy of wisdom. Do you have it in you to pass-up the joys of talent? Oh how success cripples!
Joy
The joyful wisdom is not achieved through controlling lust. Lust itself vanishes with even a single breath of the true joyful wisdom.

"If you can harmonize and delight in all things, master them and never be at a loss for joy, if you can do this day and night without a break and make it be spring with everything, mingling with all and creating the moment within your own mind - this is what I call being whole in power." - Chuang Tzu
It is said to be important to train the mind in concentration. Yet I say to you, train yourself to love the truth with all your heart! Then you will have no need of concentration, for the mind sticks inseparably and quite naturally to whatever it truly loves. If you find joy in a lover, then nothing can distract you from thinking about your lover. Likewise, if you love God, then you will not allow God to leave. It is not enough to love concentration, for then you will be forever focused on concentration, and will forget God.

You see, concentration by itself brings happiness, but not Truth; whereas love of Truth brings both concentration and Truth without effort. Love is warm, while concentration is cold by comparison. Concentration must become effortless, as it only can with love. So be wary of training, for you do not need to train yourself to eat lovely chocolate!
Enjoying dreams

Practice enjoying dreams, in the knowlege that they are not real and cannot harm you. In this way, you can come to an idea of how the dream of waking life is to be enjoyed (though in an infinitely purer sense).

Life is a dream - sharpen it up! Enjoy it with the joy of wisdom. If your eyes become tired and deflated then pump them up again with love of Truth.
Occasionally, Kevin comes up to my place. Sometimes he goes for a drive, exploring the area, and invites me along. If it's been a long day, and he doesn't have to head south immediately, he stays overnight, sleeping on the floor in the bedsit. He brings his own foam mattress for such emergencies. One such morning, when we'd both awoken, I asked him about his experience of dreams, and how he deals with the karma that has seeped into the unguarded mind overnight. He said much the same as the above: he enjoys dreams.
Yes, im sure he does. And not only that, thanks to you he gets his feminine fix, though you're gleefully oblivious to it. He gets to use you and justifies it to his conscience in the name of wisdom. All the while you believe he has ten times more the hope in you than he really does.

In truth if he had any real hope in you as a student of wisdom you'ld hardly see him at all.

And is this the same great book writer i keep reading about, are these quotations out of the "greatest book" ever written? ha!
Is this the great author at his best, page after page of exhortation.
Id like to read some of his best material, could someone print it here, preferably something that hasnt been said already, hasnt been recorded before.
Id really like to understand why this..whats the name...Poison..something book is so highly acclaimed here in this group. What exactly is so earth shattering about it.
All that i have read thus far is nothing to go on about.
But dont leave it up to me to pull out the best-of-poison, some admireer please if you will id love be impressed, but im not counting on it!






A couple of faves from Kierkegaard:
Truth is not something you can appropriate easily and quickly. You certainly cannot sleep or dream yourself into the truth. No, you must be tried, do battle, and suffer if you are to acquire truth for yourself. It is a sheer illusion to think that in relation to truth there is an abridgment, a short cut that dispenses with the necessity of struggling for it. With respect to acquiring truth to live by, every generation and every individual essentially begin from the beginning.


[Included that for the joke about enjoying "dreams", and "dreaming oneself into the truth".]
Some birds take off quietly and neatly from the branch on which they are perching and ascend heavenward in their flight, proudly, boldly. Others, like crows, for example, make a big fuss when they are about to fly. They lift one foot and then promptly grab on again, and no flight takes place.
Truth has always had many loud proclaimers, but the question is whether a person will in the deepest sense acknowledge the truth, allow it to permeate his whole being, accept all its consequences, and not have an emergency hiding place for himself and a Judas kiss for the consequence.

Fluctuations - karma - emotions - etc. are not something to worry about. Just note them, seeing them as a sign of something to work on, and move on. One just does what one can.


..
Ok, lets not worry about "experiencing enlightenment" and lets not worry about emotions, etc... so, the obvious question is: What should he worry about?
Is there anything at all we should, at least at times, worry about, anything at all?
And if not what the hell are you saying, and what is the point of communicating like this.
Feels so worldly, so typically feminine.

So social-service-agencic.
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Nick
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Nick »

awakeninggenius wrote:Sure but, the best way to deal with ones ego if one must deal with it is, to really believe you have the power to put it out of its misery, and then to do exactly that,,, what other way is there, there is no other way, and anyone who has done so, any sage at all, knows this well.
You may as well, one may as well turn to some worldly occupation (temporarily at least) if you're not prepared to deal with egotism ruthlessly, as an executioner.
No sense in flopping around and hoping for the best, not in philosophy.
It doesnt work that way.
Literally, it doesnt work.
Well I think the greater point that needs to be stressed here is that if one is being hindered by a nagging desire, it may be better to pursue that desire to try and get it out of one's system so one can get back to the higher realms on sturdier ground. Of course there are risks in doing this, for instance one may end up sowing the seeds for greater and more frequent desires in the future if one has not already experienced the higher realms of existence. But for those who have experienced the higher realms it is unlikely they will completely slip back into the lower realms and remain there. So while I agree that one needs to be "prepared to deal with egotism ruthlessly, as an executioner", one also needs to have great clarity and focus to do so.
deceit
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by deceit »

As I piss on Your grave in my glorified enlightenment can you still give me truth to the questions III possesses.

Have fun reasoning
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Kelly Jones »

awakeninggenius wrote:Yes, im sure he does. And not only that, thanks to you he gets his feminine fix, though you're gleefully oblivious to it.
I think you're gleefully oblivious to how enlightenment works. You're assuming that the dying ego is only fed by seeking external gratification, and that femininity isn't in one's own psychology - regardless of sex.

He gets to use you and justifies it to his conscience in the name of wisdom.
Well, it's good for you to warn people of complacency, and rationalising weaknesses. But I don't see the evidence that Kevin's as stupid as you believe he is.

This is just my opinion. I don't have access to his brain - and I know by experience that no one can know a wise person's thoughts and purposes as well as they can.

He is not perfect, but I don't see evidence that he's given up hope in his cause, or that he hasn't made much more headway on the path than anyone else on this forum. He's down-to-earth and free of pretentiousness and ritual. One thing that strikes me about Kevin, that I don't see in many allegedly wise persons, is that he is a very ordinary bloke. There's nothing fancy, no theatrics, no obsessions. He never acts superior to others, or enjoys a position of superiority or domination, or beleagers others with words and ego-rubbing fascinations. He is never angry, extremely patient, and never leaps to conclusions. He doesn't have a stick to wield against women, or feminine men, but tends to leave people of low scope alone. He doesn't force his opinion on others, and rather than creating stress, finds interesting ways to open up the mind naturally. He has more male acquaintances than female, but is pretty much a loner. In other words, I think he's an unusual kind of old gnarled tree, whose roots go very deep. I respect him as a colleague, and I am grateful for having known him.

In truth if he had any real hope in you as a student of wisdom you'ld hardly see him at all.
Well, I'm an agent in my own right. When one can stand on one's own feet, and no longer has any doubts, then it is possible to socialise with others without needing their company or advice.

And is this the same great book writer i keep reading about, are these quotations out of the "greatest book" ever written? ha!
Is this the great author at his best, page after page of exhortation.
Id like to read some of his best material, could someone print it here, preferably something that hasnt been said already, hasnt been recorded before.
Id really like to understand why this..whats the name...Poison..something book is so highly acclaimed here in this group. What exactly is so earth shattering about it.
All that i have read thus far is nothing to go on about.
But dont leave it up to me to pull out the best-of-poison, some admireer please if you will id love be impressed, but im not counting on it!
Read it for yourself. No one is trying to impress anyone here. I quoted some writings that succinctly expressed an idea I was trying to convey to Ryan. It's not about glorifying others, but conveying an idea.

Ok, lets not worry about "experiencing enlightenment" and lets not worry about emotions, etc... so, the obvious question is: What should he worry about?
Is there anything at all we should, at least at times, worry about, anything at all?
And if not what the hell are you saying, and what is the point of communicating like this.
Feels so worldly, so typically feminine.

So social-service-agencic.
Just focus on truth, not the manifestations.


..
Conservationist
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Conservationist »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:Is logic strong enough to override our biology completely and totally?
Anecdotally, only if the person is high intelligence (starting at 125, usually far above) and also possessed of a will toward reality (nobility).

In other words, the proles and artisans (vaishya) will not be doing that.
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by cousinbasil »

Kelly wrote:
And is this the same great book writer i keep reading about, are these quotations out of the "greatest book" ever written? ha!
Is this the great author at his best, page after page of exhortation.
Id like to read some of his best material, could someone print it here, preferably something that hasnt been said already, hasnt been recorded before.
Id really like to understand why this..whats the name...Poison..something book is so highly acclaimed here in this group. What exactly is so earth shattering about it.
All that i have read thus far is nothing to go on about.
But dont leave it up to me to pull out the best-of-poison, some admireer please if you will id love be impressed, but im not counting on it!
Read it for yourself. No one is trying to impress anyone here. I quoted some writings that succinctly expressed an idea I was trying to convey to Ryan. It's not about glorifying others, but conveying an idea.
Wasn't sure if this was still awakeninggenius you were quoting here, Kelly.

But I take it awakening is speaking of Poison for the Heart.

I find it is written in a very useful way. One can begin anywhere and a similar effect occurs, which is the old mental ball is kicked and sent rolling. It is not something written to read and agree with or not. I think if it is read properly one begins actually to write more of it oneself, in one's head, at least it has had that effect on me and I honestly cannot recall having read anything else which has. I don't know if this is what you would call "earth-shattering," but it does tend to send not a few seisms to one's ego, and that can be extraordinarily useful. If nothing else, Poison is accessible and more down-to-earth than earth-shattering.
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Talking Ass »

Cousin Basil wrote: "It is not something written to read and agree with or not. I think if it is read properly one begins actually to write more of it oneself, in one's head, at least it has had that effect on me and I honestly cannot recall having read anything else which has. I don't know if this is what you would call "earth-shattering," but it does tend to send not a few seisms to one's ego, and that can be extraordinarily useful. If nothing else, Poison is accessible and more down-to-earth than earth-shattering."

Is there a part you might quote, one that you found particularly interesting/useful?
fiat mihi
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Kelly Jones »

cousinbasil wrote:Wasn't sure if this was still awakeninggenius you were quoting here, Kelly.

But I take it awakening is speaking of Poison for the Heart.
Yes, on both.

I find it is written in a very useful way. One can begin anywhere and a similar effect occurs, which is the old mental ball is kicked and sent rolling. It is not something written to read and agree with or not. I think if it is read properly one begins actually to write more of it oneself, in one's head, at least it has had that effect on me
I agree. There is very little in Poison for the Heart that isn't high quality. One only needs to have a look for oneself. It's all equally venomous.

And, like you say, it challenges one not to hold onto to anything. One idea will contradict another, deliberately. It forces one to see for oneself. If one simply copied the words, they would be dead.


...
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by cousinbasil »

Talking Ass wrote:Cousin Basil wrote: "It is not something written to read and agree with or not. I think if it is read properly one begins actually to write more of it oneself, in one's head, at least it has had that effect on me and I honestly cannot recall having read anything else which has. I don't know if this is what you would call "earth-shattering," but it does tend to send not a few seisms to one's ego, and that can be extraordinarily useful. If nothing else, Poison is accessible and more down-to-earth than earth-shattering."

Is there a part you might quote, one that you found particularly interesting/useful?
Well, one could start anywhere. I find this quote quite pithy, for example:
A mind bathed in spirit is not within time, but time is within it. A boat is meant to go into water, but the water must not get into the boat. In the same way, we are meant to be in the world, but the world must not get into us.
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by jufa »

Has anyone considered when the biological conditions of an individual cease to be, so does that individual's logic? Would appear that the biological conditions and logic are not in opposition with one another, but fighting for supremacy of independent rule. And for independent rule of either comes from the Source of awareness which is life. In the reality of this picture I have drawn, each entity is being upheld by and illusion which will collapse the world of materialism when the earth recalls that which has been man's clothes.

Thinking out loud.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

http://www.theillusionofgod.yuku.com
Last edited by jufa on Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Kelly Jones
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Kelly Jones »

jufa wrote:Has anyone considered when the biological conditions of an individual cease to be, so does that individual's logic? Would appear that the biological conditions and logic are not in opposition with one another, but fighting for supremacy of independent rule.
A person needs to be conscious to have thoughts. Consciousness isn't in conflict with logic, by any means. The completely conscious person is also highly logical.


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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by jufa »

Kelly Jones wrote:
jufa wrote:Has anyone considered when the biological conditions of an individual cease to be, so does that individual's logic? Would appear that the biological conditions and logic are not in opposition with one another, but fighting for supremacy of independent rule.
A person needs to be conscious to have thoughts. Consciousness isn't in conflict with logic, by any means. The completely conscious person is also highly logical.


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Kelly, if a person needs to be conscious to have thoughts, tell me then, does not a person need to be conscious to be logical? and if not, give logic for thought and its source without being conscious.

So the question remains, which did not deal with thought, and which you ignored. If the body is dead, can the logic which is issused forth because of the life, not the body exist?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa

p.s. there can be no biological conditioning, nor logic where there is no life.

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Kelly Jones
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Kelly Jones »

jufa wrote:
Kelly Jones wrote:
jufa wrote:Has anyone considered when the biological conditions of an individual cease to be, so does that individual's logic? Would appear that the biological conditions and logic are not in opposition with one another, but fighting for supremacy of independent rule.
A person needs to be conscious to have thoughts. Consciousness isn't in conflict with logic, by any means. The completely conscious person is also highly logical.
Kelly, if a person needs to be conscious to have thoughts, tell me then, does not a person need to be conscious to be logical?
Yes. Logic only arises with rational thoughts.

If the body is dead, can the logic which is issused forth because of the life, not the body exist?
Logic only arises with rational thoughts, thoughts only arise with consciousness and are the "sine qua non" of consciousness, and consciousness requires the bodily organism to be living. Thus, there is no experience of logic when one is dead.

In case I have to clarify this, this doesn't mean that illogicality is experienced when one is dead, or that a dead body turns logic upside-down for the conscious perceiver of a dead body. :-)


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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by jufa »

Kelly stated: In case I have to clarify this, this doesn't mean that illogicality is experienced when one is dead, or that a dead body turns logic upside-down for the conscious perceiver of a dead body. :-)
This is and irrational and illogic statement you have presented. Why? because to know what you have stated means you have to have experience death of the grave, and returned with the knowledge of non-conscious activity beyond physical death.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Anders Schlander »

jufa wrote:
Kelly stated: In case I have to clarify this, this doesn't mean that illogicality is experienced when one is dead, or that a dead body turns logic upside-down for the conscious perceiver of a dead body. :-)
This is and irrational and illogic statement you have presented. Why? because to know what you have stated means you have to have experience death of the grave, and returned with the knowledge of non-conscious activity beyond physical death.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
knowldge of the non-conscious can't exist, it's a contradiction, yes, but that also means illogicality cannot exist upon being unconscious and dead, and this proves kellies first statement that illogicality isn't experienced when dead.
However, as for the second statement: logic can't be turned upside down, or compromised, in any world, as a thing cannot violate A=A.

Think of a square circle, it is impossible for it to be both things at the same time, a thing must have one existence, and that existence is only possible if it is itself.

We can also say that because existence is only possible if things are themselves, things can never exist if they do not follow the logic that they are themselves.
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by jufa »

Nice conversation we have here!
Anders Schlander states:knowldge of the non-conscious can't exist, it's a contradiction, yes, but that also means illogicality cannot exist upon being unconscious and dead, and this proves kellies first statement that illogicality isn't experienced when dead.
However, as for the second statement: logic can't be turned upside down, or compromised, in any world, as a thing cannot violate A=A.

Think of a square circle, it is impossible for it to be both things at the same time, a thing must have one existence, and that existence is only possible if it is itself.

We can also say that because existence is only possible if things are themselves, things can never exist if they do not follow the logic that they are themselves.
Knowledge of non-conscious can't exist because there is no such things as non-conscious. So where can non-conscious find a place of objective rational, and logic a place of subjective objectivity in the minds of men if they do not exist?

What is illogical is all the while we are discussing this matter, consciousness and non-conscious is alive and well in the death which is brought to life in the biological conditioning in the aware of thought, not logic which we are now speak uipon.

One more point, what is the logic for logic to exist in life or death when there is no logic for existence?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Kelly Jones »

jufa wrote:
Kelly stated: In case I have to clarify this, this doesn't mean that illogicality is experienced when one is dead, or that a dead body turns logic upside-down for the conscious perceiver of a dead body. :-)
This is and irrational and illogic statement you have presented. Why? because to know what you have stated means you have to have experience death of the grave, and returned with the knowledge of non-conscious activity beyond physical death.
You misinterpreted it, but I'm glad you realise that interpretation would have been irrational. That's why I didn't make it!

I've experienced lots of dead bodies. Mostly dead possums, dead cats, dead wallabies, dead potaroos, dead penguins and dead rabbits in this part of the world. Entrails and eyes squished out on the road, with ravens tucking in for lunch.


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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

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Hi Kelly, you wrote: You misinterpreted it, but I'm glad you realise that interpretation would have been irrational. That's why I didn't make it!

I've experienced lots of dead bodies. Mostly dead possums, dead cats, dead wallabies, dead potaroos, dead penguins and dead rabbits in this part of the world. Entrails and eyes squished out on the road, with ravens tucking in for lunch.
It is impossible for you to experience dead bodies. It is possible for you to observe what is deemed to be dead. When you get to the gut of the matter, you will understand dead does not stop a body from decay. How can that which is dead have a conscious memory of what the next stage of dead is to do being death, it is believed, halts the activity of consciousness?

Seeing a dead body is an experience of observation which is a experience of outer objective vision, but it is not an experience of being dead.

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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

Post by Kelly Jones »

jufa, I think you're getting too caught up in the use of words. "Dead" and "alive" are figures of speech, and there are many, many ways to interpret the words.

One of those ways recognises that the boundary between biological death and life is often drawn for convenience, making the difference purely arbitrary. For instance, viruses are alive, are made of molecules, yet molecules are not alive. In that sense, all living things - being made of molecules - are made of non-living matter.

In another way, a Zennish way, I see myself as a dead body, knowing there's no ultimate difference between life and death. I am like the ashes.

In another way, if being consciousness is an indication of life, then death is meaningless, and therefore life also.

For such reasons, it's possible to speak of dead bodies, like decomposed penguins on the road, and not be deceived. Try not to be so literal.


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Re: Biological Conditioning Vs Logic

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Kelly Jones wrote:jufa, I think you're getting too caught up in the use of words. "Dead" and "alive" are figures of speech, and there are many, many ways to interpret the words.

One of those ways recognises that the boundary between biological death and life is often drawn for convenience, making the difference purely arbitrary. For instance, viruses are alive, are made of molecules, yet molecules are not alive. In that sense, all living things - being made of molecules - are made of non-living matter.

In another way, a Zennish way, I see myself as a dead body, knowing there's no ultimate difference between life and death. I am like the ashes.

In another way, if being consciousness is an indication of life, then death is meaningless, and therefore life also.

For such reasons, it's possible to speak of dead bodies, like decomposed penguins on the road, and not be deceived. Try not to be so literal.


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Hi Kelly, I cannot get, nor you, or anyone get caught up in words. What we get caught up in is our own interpretation of words. Word interpretations are as deep and as high as the expansion of one relativity of comprehending words are for the very purpose for which you and I are engaging them from our independent pictures of imaginative thought formation.

You cannot say molecules are not alive because you do not know what life is beyond your comprehension of awareness of only the things you know of of your life. Is a stone alive in the sense of life, or is it dead in the sense of your interpretation of death? And then, back to molecules, if the molecule did not life, it could not bring life forth to awaken that which is dead without them.

Conversations are always literal, even when enlightenment has expanded ones mind beyond the structure of relative exactness.

To myself, every man, woman, child has a conscious meaning for existing in this world. I envision it is their purpose to find a way to start to look, to feel, to touch, to taste, to smell, to hear, the inner voice of their inner conscience directions within them to accomplish that purpose; which to me is for the benefit of the whole of mankind. To do this, I perceive, will start a chain reaction from the point of endeavor and change attitudes and lives for the better.

The way is not taught in speaking words, but in demonstration

I's also like to say it is not true, as some believe, the only consciousness known of is that created by thought. What thought does a tree possess to make it consciously adapt to the seasons?

If thought created consciousness, what name is given to that which creates thought?

Consciousness is like time. Every human being lives their life in their own time frame, giving substance and essence to that conscious timed world they live in only. Everything they absorb and recognize is unique, and what they interpret of that which they observe is their experience of exactness no one else can ever know of. People can only relate to things in their time frame of relativity relative to only themselves.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
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