A very interesting TEDTalk with Neuroscientists Jim Fallon explaining the causal link between a gene (MAOA) carried on the X chromosome (as to be more expressed in males), regulates seratonin production, and when accompanied by environmental trauma/stress results in orbitofrontal brain damage and psychopathic tendencies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4
For a bullshit partial denial of this evidence check out reason.com
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34855.html
MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
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Elizabeth Isabelle
- Posts: 3771
- Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:35 am
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
Interesting. Even more evidence for "make peace or else."
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
could you detail the 'partial denial' of the evidence? I didn't see it.Animus wrote:A very interesting TEDTalk with Neuroscientists Jim Fallon explaining the causal link between a gene (MAOA) carried on the X chromosome (as to be more expressed in males), regulates seratonin production, and when accompanied by environmental trauma/stress results in orbitofrontal brain damage and psychopathic tendencies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4
For a bullshit partial denial of this evidence check out reason.com
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34855.html
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
He is beating around the bush, the "free-will" bush, he never says people have "free-will" but he continuously points to gaps in our understanding and even suggests "vengeance" would be a suitable solution to some of those gaps. Its fairly obvious to me that this author enjoys seeing people get punished, it's rather typical.syzygy wrote:could you detail the 'partial denial' of the evidence? I didn't see it.Animus wrote:A very interesting TEDTalk with Neuroscientists Jim Fallon explaining the causal link between a gene (MAOA) carried on the X chromosome (as to be more expressed in males), regulates seratonin production, and when accompanied by environmental trauma/stress results in orbitofrontal brain damage and psychopathic tendencies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4
For a bullshit partial denial of this evidence check out reason.com
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34855.html
"Clearly, we can go only so far down the slippery slope of genetic absolution. As the Science study shows, environment matters too. "
Then he goes on to argue that the "environment" is in top shape, and the only recourse is for us to lock people up. The whole article focuses in on justifying the status quo.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
"One can see how this line of argument could progress: Pyromaniacs have irresistible urges to commit arson. Stealing is a disease called kleptomania, whose victims can't help but filch expensive dresses from Rodeo Drive boutiques. Drunk drivers suffer from a genetic predisposition to alcoholism, which means they aren't responsible for ramming a school bus full of children while on a toot. "
What gets even crazier is the alternative... look up Powell vs Texas. This was a landmark supreme court case in the USA over Alcoholism and a man being "drunk in a public place". The courts determined that the man's alcoholism was in-fact a disease, one that forced his behaviour in such a way as to make him drunk, and although the aclohol inhibits the frontal cortex, again altering behaviour, the court determined that he was still responsible for "being drunk in a public place".
"was convicted, not for being a chronic alcoholic, but for being in public while drunk on a particular occasion."
Of course, we all know that alcohol disrupts the executive functions of the brain causing people to become uninhibited. Conversely, inhibition is what enables us to obey laws and other social customs. The fact is, it came down to his behaviour, in the one case he was not responsible for the drinking behaviour, but after the alcohol messed up his mind, now he is responsible?
Maybe I'm the only one who can see the contradiction and the obvious attempt to maintain the status quo in the face of damning evidence.
What gets even crazier is the alternative... look up Powell vs Texas. This was a landmark supreme court case in the USA over Alcoholism and a man being "drunk in a public place". The courts determined that the man's alcoholism was in-fact a disease, one that forced his behaviour in such a way as to make him drunk, and although the aclohol inhibits the frontal cortex, again altering behaviour, the court determined that he was still responsible for "being drunk in a public place".
"was convicted, not for being a chronic alcoholic, but for being in public while drunk on a particular occasion."
Of course, we all know that alcohol disrupts the executive functions of the brain causing people to become uninhibited. Conversely, inhibition is what enables us to obey laws and other social customs. The fact is, it came down to his behaviour, in the one case he was not responsible for the drinking behaviour, but after the alcohol messed up his mind, now he is responsible?
Maybe I'm the only one who can see the contradiction and the obvious attempt to maintain the status quo in the face of damning evidence.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
Also, if you look into that "Kleptomania" only effects wealthy women, in everyone else we call it "theft".
Its more about our perspective than anything else, if a wealthy woman steals, we assume it wasn't a choice, why wouldn't she just buy the item? But if a poor woman steals we right it off as "need" and thus "theft". So we criminalize the needy and excuse the wealthy. It also has sexual bias, as its not considered to be a disease of the male mind, men and poor women who steal are all thieves.
This was noted in 1922 by Clarence Darrow in "Crime, Its cause and treatment", but nothing has changed.
Its not that Kleptomania isn't a valid disorder, it is and probably shares something in common with OCD. The bullshit part of it is when we try to rationalize it all away, if we see a poor women stealing we immediately move to "monetary gain" and not "kleptomania", thus poor women don't get the disorder in our books.
"Not everyone who shopflifts is a thief. But, asks Sarah Boseley, why does kleptomania affect mostly women - and what is the link with eating disorders?
Hilary had no reason to steal. But reason did not come into it. She was a professional, middle-class woman with a good job. And she was a compulsive thief.
This is how she describes the beginnings: "My first dip into the murky world of theft had been a spoon from a cafe. As spoons go it was nothing special but somehow the act of taking it seemed to soothe me. I was hooked.
"Other small, ridiculous things followed but soon my compulsion was a hungry monster, demanding a daily fix of more dangerous booty."
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/ ... 81648.html
When I was a teenager, I was a thief, and this is exactly what it was like. Call it "kleptomania" if you will, but for me it was "Theft under 5k", 2 months in juvenile assessment, 18 months of probation and 120 community hours. Then again, I wasn't a rich woman.
Anyway, you see how ridculous our justice system is on these issues.
Its more about our perspective than anything else, if a wealthy woman steals, we assume it wasn't a choice, why wouldn't she just buy the item? But if a poor woman steals we right it off as "need" and thus "theft". So we criminalize the needy and excuse the wealthy. It also has sexual bias, as its not considered to be a disease of the male mind, men and poor women who steal are all thieves.
This was noted in 1922 by Clarence Darrow in "Crime, Its cause and treatment", but nothing has changed.
Its not that Kleptomania isn't a valid disorder, it is and probably shares something in common with OCD. The bullshit part of it is when we try to rationalize it all away, if we see a poor women stealing we immediately move to "monetary gain" and not "kleptomania", thus poor women don't get the disorder in our books.
"Not everyone who shopflifts is a thief. But, asks Sarah Boseley, why does kleptomania affect mostly women - and what is the link with eating disorders?
Hilary had no reason to steal. But reason did not come into it. She was a professional, middle-class woman with a good job. And she was a compulsive thief.
This is how she describes the beginnings: "My first dip into the murky world of theft had been a spoon from a cafe. As spoons go it was nothing special but somehow the act of taking it seemed to soothe me. I was hooked.
"Other small, ridiculous things followed but soon my compulsion was a hungry monster, demanding a daily fix of more dangerous booty."
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/ ... 81648.html
When I was a teenager, I was a thief, and this is exactly what it was like. Call it "kleptomania" if you will, but for me it was "Theft under 5k", 2 months in juvenile assessment, 18 months of probation and 120 community hours. Then again, I wasn't a rich woman.
Anyway, you see how ridculous our justice system is on these issues.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
BTW I got busted for stealing 5 cents worth of stickers from a super market.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
Fact is there is a causation in any case and it doesn't matter if you know what it is or not, causation excuses all of us on the grand scheme of things, so its not about finding the gaps or justifying vengeance, it should be about formulating an effective means for dealing with things.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
I see what you are saying; I had noticed that for sure.Animus wrote:He is beating around the bush, the "free-will" bush, he never says people have "free-will" but he continuously points to gaps in our understanding and even suggests "vengeance" would be a suitable solution to some of those gaps. Its fairly obvious to me that this author enjoys seeing people get punished, it's rather typical.syzygy wrote:could you detail the 'partial denial' of the evidence? I didn't see it.Animus wrote:A very interesting TEDTalk with Neuroscientists Jim Fallon explaining the causal link between a gene (MAOA) carried on the X chromosome (as to be more expressed in males), regulates seratonin production, and when accompanied by environmental trauma/stress results in orbitofrontal brain damage and psychopathic tendencies.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4
For a bullshit partial denial of this evidence check out reason.com
http://www.reason.com/news/show/34855.html
"Clearly, we can go only so far down the slippery slope of genetic absolution. As the Science study shows, environment matters too. "
Then he goes on to argue that the "environment" is in top shape, and the only recourse is for us to lock people up. The whole article focuses in on justifying the status quo.
I see that as being a difference of view on a philosophical level. Rather than being a denial of the scientific evidence, I see it as being a different interpretation of the evidence. The philosophical ramifications of the evidence is outside the parameters of the scientific model.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
It's my understanding that most people, whether they believe in free-will or not, believe in everyone being held responsible for their choices. Not necessarily "freely willed" choices, but choices just the same.
I agree with this.
It's a consequence of being conscious. Reality holds us to the consequences of our actions all the time. including when masses of others would like to be arbiters of such justice.
At the same time, I, like you, can see the rampant ignorance that goes on in society, regarding how such problems come into being. I, too, see how society generally wields the duality good/bad sword of justice, which complicates things. And still, I'm all for a justice system that reflects the natural law of holding one accountable for what they do, and the consequences of such.
I agree with this.
It's a consequence of being conscious. Reality holds us to the consequences of our actions all the time. including when masses of others would like to be arbiters of such justice.
At the same time, I, like you, can see the rampant ignorance that goes on in society, regarding how such problems come into being. I, too, see how society generally wields the duality good/bad sword of justice, which complicates things. And still, I'm all for a justice system that reflects the natural law of holding one accountable for what they do, and the consequences of such.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
Punitive measures only go so far, they don't always work, especially when they are carried out with vengeance, then they are seen as retribution rather than consequence.
I lean toward the Consequentialist theory of punishment. In general consequentialism holds that the "moral rightness" of an act be determined by its consequences. As this relates to punitive corrective actions, it is the consequence of punitive correction that justifies punitive corrective actions. Such that, if punitive punishment is effective in "correction" then it is justified, otherwise it is not, if punitive punishment has a negative effect then it would be morally reprehensible itself.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/
This is different than retributivist thought which is largely based on the "free-will" assumption, and seeks retribution as justification for punitive measures. That is, if the victims of a crime feel better or more secure, than that justifies the punishment without regard for the psychological consequences for the "criminal".
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/punishment/
I lean toward the Consequentialist theory of punishment. In general consequentialism holds that the "moral rightness" of an act be determined by its consequences. As this relates to punitive corrective actions, it is the consequence of punitive correction that justifies punitive corrective actions. Such that, if punitive punishment is effective in "correction" then it is justified, otherwise it is not, if punitive punishment has a negative effect then it would be morally reprehensible itself.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/
This is different than retributivist thought which is largely based on the "free-will" assumption, and seeks retribution as justification for punitive measures. That is, if the victims of a crime feel better or more secure, than that justifies the punishment without regard for the psychological consequences for the "criminal".
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/punishment/
syzygy wrote:It's my understanding that most people, whether they believe in free-will or not, believe in everyone being held responsible for their choices. Not necessarily "freely willed" choices, but choices just the same.
I agree with this.
It's a consequence of being conscious. Reality holds us to the consequences of our actions all the time. including when masses of others would like to be arbiters of such justice.
At the same time, I, like you, can see the rampant ignorance that goes on in society, regarding how such problems come into being. I, too, see how society generally wields the duality good/bad sword of justice, which complicates things. And still, I'm all for a justice system that reflects the natural law of holding one accountable for what they do, and the consequences of such.
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
Society has a loonnnggg way to go before people realize that judgment and blame are not the same as understanding. When we are not understanding a situation, and we act, and act judgmentally, and punitively, we are creating new harmful consequences.Animus wrote:Punitive measures only go so far, they don't always work, especially when they are carried out with vengeance, then they are seen as retribution rather than consequence.
I lean toward the Consequentialist theory of punishment. In general consequentialism holds that the "moral rightness" of an act be determined by its consequences. As this relates to punitive corrective actions, it is the consequence of punitive correction that justifies punitive corrective actions. Such that, if punitive punishment is effective in "correction" then it is justified, otherwise it is not, if punitive punishment has a negative effect then it would be morally reprehensible itself.
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consequentialism/
This is different than retributivist thought which is largely based on the "free-will" assumption, and seeks retribution as justification for punitive measures. That is, if the victims of a crime feel better or more secure, than that justifies the punishment without regard for the psychological consequences for the "criminal".
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/punishment/
syzygy wrote:It's my understanding that most people, whether they believe in free-will or not, believe in everyone being held responsible for their choices. Not necessarily "freely willed" choices, but choices just the same.
I agree with this.
It's a consequence of being conscious. Reality holds us to the consequences of our actions all the time. including when masses of others would like to be arbiters of such justice.
At the same time, I, like you, can see the rampant ignorance that goes on in society, regarding how such problems come into being. I, too, see how society generally wields the duality good/bad sword of justice, which complicates things. And still, I'm all for a justice system that reflects the natural law of holding one accountable for what they do, and the consequences of such.
Not to mention all that about society projecting their own inner unacknowleged lack, fears, shame, etc. outward, onto others, and thusly perpetuating the crime they seek to stop, etc. It's not pretty. We continue to create our own fallout, and continue point the finger at those who are marginalized. It's great to have a fall guy... oh, how I love the pointing of the finger.... [/sarcasm]
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
.
-Animus-
When I was a teenager, I was a thief, and this is exactly what it was like. Call it "kleptomania" if you will, but for me it was "Theft under 5k", 2 months in juvenile assessment, 18 months of probation and 120 community hours. Then again, I wasn't a rich woman.
-tomas-
In another thread (Celibacy?) you write something about having the hots for women in the way some of them dress.
Are you saying that you are a lesbian, or bisexual?
You proffer the Wynona Ryder article, Wynona was/is bi-sexual..
As far as stealing goes, the chopping off of the right hand works for me :-/
Why waste tax money on losers .. whatever age.....
Good article > Men must champion feminine women
A feminine woman has the effect of a sunrise on a man's soul. (photo)
http://www.henrymakow.com/051201.html
-Animus-
When I was a teenager, I was a thief, and this is exactly what it was like. Call it "kleptomania" if you will, but for me it was "Theft under 5k", 2 months in juvenile assessment, 18 months of probation and 120 community hours. Then again, I wasn't a rich woman.
-tomas-
In another thread (Celibacy?) you write something about having the hots for women in the way some of them dress.
Are you saying that you are a lesbian, or bisexual?
You proffer the Wynona Ryder article, Wynona was/is bi-sexual..
As far as stealing goes, the chopping off of the right hand works for me :-/
Why waste tax money on losers .. whatever age.....
Good article > Men must champion feminine women
A feminine woman has the effect of a sunrise on a man's soul. (photo)
http://www.henrymakow.com/051201.html
Don't run to your death
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
Don't let the Jungian usage of "Animus" confuse you Tomas, I am a man.
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Talking Ass
- Posts: 846
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:20 am
Re: MAOA Gene, Childhood Trauma and Psychopathy
animus (English definition): animosity: a feeling of ill will arousing active hostility.
Anima. The archetype of feminity in man.
Animus. The archetype of masculinity in woman.
Latin: animus : courage, vivacity, bravery, will, spirit, soul.
Latin: animus : character, intellect, memory, consciousness, often mind.
Latin: Anima : Anima-, refers to “a living being” from a Latin form meaning, “of air, having a spirit, living”, which in turn comes from another form meaning, “breath of air, air, soul, life”.
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The only thing Talking Ass ever stole was young girl donkey's hearts. Then came the payback. The Sisterhood never forgets...
Anima. The archetype of feminity in man.
Animus. The archetype of masculinity in woman.
Latin: animus : courage, vivacity, bravery, will, spirit, soul.
Latin: animus : character, intellect, memory, consciousness, often mind.
Latin: Anima : Anima-, refers to “a living being” from a Latin form meaning, “of air, having a spirit, living”, which in turn comes from another form meaning, “breath of air, air, soul, life”.
____________________________________________________
The only thing Talking Ass ever stole was young girl donkey's hearts. Then came the payback. The Sisterhood never forgets...
fiat mihi