What makes us special?

[Tomhargen]

What makes humans any different from any other system? We respond to stimuli based on cause and effect. There is the occasional mix up that we can't find the reason behind, but it's always there. I don't see how theres anything different between me and the tectonic plate movement system besides complexity.

[paco]

What makes humans any different from any other system? We respond to stimuli based on cause and effect. There is the occasional mix up that we can't find the reason behind, but it's always there. I don't see how theres anything different between me and the tectonic plate movement system besides complexity.

What's tectonic plate movement? Is that like the movements that are spectical to the eye? I've dreamed of something spectacularly similar when I was watering my roses. It seems that all life is fighting for survival.

The reason; because it is there.

[paco]

In other words, 2+2=4.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

The behavior of humans, especially communication, appears to be so much more complex and intricate that some degree of self-awareness, 'mirroring mind', has been developed as to make it work somehow. As a side-effect perhaps some have to deal with the nature of our existence in terms of this consciousness.

[brokenhead]

What makes humans any different from any other system? We respond to stimuli based on cause and effect. There is the occasional mix up that we can't find the reason behind, but it's always there. I don't see how theres anything different between me and the tectonic plate movement system besides complexity.

Then there is no difference except complexity between brain surgery and opening a zip-lock bag either, is there?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Despite its limitations, the human brain is probably one of the most evolved complicated systems to ever arise, if compared to anything else in the natural world, excluding human invention of course, which has progressively created complex systems.

The human experience is unique to all other things because it is only the human experience that can logically make true statements about the world, and reach conclusions, as well as explore the universe itself. Consciousness is unique in that regard, unique in its ability to be conscious... ; )

[skipair]

Ultimately, desires aside, I see everything as equally special, unspecial, and no more or less complex than anything else. So, maybe just "different" would be a better word, and seems to simplify the question.

[brokenhead]

Ultimately, desires aside, I see everything as equally special, unspecial, and no more or less complex than anything else. So, maybe just "different" would be a better word, and seems to simplify the question.

Interesting [non]view, Skippy.

If everything is equally complex, why can a second grader learn addition and multipication and not calculus or quantum mechanics?

Is your answer to say that basic math and QM are just "different"? Isn't that simplifying it to the point of being meaningless?

[skipair]

Sup Brokey, interesting questions. :)

If everything is equally complex, why can a second grader learn addition and multipication and not calculus or quantum mechanics?

I don't know, but it probably has to do with the moral breakdown of society: same-sex marriage, teen pregnancy, a slippery slope that condems children to wait years before they can grasp more complex logical systems.

J/K. I would say that the causes needed to sustain any given thing are infinite in number. Doesn't matter if it's a ziplock bag, a logical system, or any concept at all. Logic is a bit funny because you can't really measure it. It has a strange finality that nothing else really has, but at the same time, its existence is dependent on our existence, which within and without is infinitely complex - like everything else.

Is your answer to say that basic math and QM are just "different"? Isn't that simplifying it to the point of being meaningless?

Well, there's something still funny about logic as compared to infinite causation that I haven't totally clarified yet, so I'm open to discussion.

From what I see as the ultimate perspective, arithmetic, QM, and all the rest are just different because they both arise from the same infinite past. And yeah, it seems that applying this to everything does erase all objective meaning from reality. But this isn't to say that one isn't harder to learn about than the other, or that they don't have different uses and effects. But it's the difference between looking at it with the Causal Eye or the Practical Eye.

How's your lady situation?

[Shahrazad]

Ryan,

Despite its limitations, the human brain is probably one of the most evolved complicated systems to ever arise, if compared to anything else in the natural world,

Unless you have traveled extensively to all solar systems that exist in the whole universe, it is ridiculous for you to make such a claim.

[brokenhead]

Ryan,

Despite its limitations, the human brain is probably one of the most evolved complicated systems to ever arise, if compared to anything else in the natural world,

Unless you have traveled extensively to all solar systems that exist in the whole universe, it is ridiculous for you to make such a claim.

Good point, Shah. Ryan could make his point moe valid by limiting it to the known natural world.

[brokenhead]

Well, there's something still funny about logic as compared to infinite causation that I haven't totally clarified yet, so I'm open to discussion.

Infinite causation can be seen to precede any given thing if the thing is viewed as an effect. You might trace some of these causes, and you would want to be logical as you did so, but you could never trace all of them.

From what I see as the ultimate perspective, arithmetic, QM, and all the rest are just different because they both arise from the same infinite past.

So you are saying one is not more complex than the other. I think their complexity levels are not the same.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is what is invoked when physicists construct cosmological models about the large scale history of the Universe. They do not examine all internal causes and effects, for that would be impossible. You cannot say how Things As They Are came to be this way, but you can make the assumption that they have just come, at every instant, from a state of greater order. In other words, it is assumed that the entropy of the Universe always spontaneously increases and never spontaneously decreases.

Life, on the other hand, is a local decrease of entropy, or a local ordering of the Universe. This is evident with the complexity of organisms, which tend toward greater complexity with time if viewed in an evolutionary sense. Life cannot become more ordered except at the overall expense of order in the Universe as a whole.

To me, that the past is necessarily more ordered, and that life itself tends toward greater order, is large scale evidence of a Creator or at least creative agency. Not proof, but suggestive evidence, IMO.

What makes us special is that we also perform this ordering. We go against the grain. Life is special in this manner; we (humans) are special among living things in that we can perceive ourselves and make abstract external representations of internal processes, such as thoughts and ideas.

In addition, these external representations are not of equal complexity. More energy must be spent learning the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus than must be spent learning 1+1=2. A deck of cards does not get into order, it must be put there. More energy is spent, say, arranging the cards into perfect order than would be spent on arranging it so that the top half is the red suits and the bottom half the black suits. The level of complexity, and therefore order, available to the human mind is greater than that of other known minds.

How's your lady situation?

Fine, thanks. Out of respect for the forum, and to minimize the shrapnel, I will confine my comments to the What is Love? thread.

[skipair]

Infinite causation can be seen to precede any given thing if the thing is viewed as an effect.

Agreed. The other option is to view it as a cause. Like currents in a portion of the ocean, they wouldn't be how they are unless the rest of the ocean is how it is. Co-dependent.

You might trace some of these causes, and you would want to be logical as you did so, but you could never trace all of them.

I don't think you can trace anything logically through time. I think that's more an empirical matter, saying, "This seems to cause this, and I can rely on that...for now." This is the Practical Eye.

S: From what I see as the ultimate perspective, arithmetic, QM, and all the rest are just different because they both arise from the same infinite past.

B: So you are saying one is not more complex than the other. I think their complexity levels are not the same.

If you are treating them as discrete objects and comparing them, I agree. One is more complex.

What I'm talking about is looking at them in a larger context, to zoom out until everything and anything that can be imagined is included, and to consider the causal ramifications of these particular things in that context. From there, whether it is different math systems, or a rock or a human, nothing is special and nothing is unspecial, complex or simple.

The only reason I have values at all is because some things give me pleasure, and I like that.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics is what is invoked when physicists construct cosmological models about the large scale history of the Universe. They do not examine all internal causes and effects, for that would be impossible.

I have to say, I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you trying to use some scientific theory as supportive evidence for God and needing to feel special? :(

You cannot say how Things As They Are came to be this way, but you can make the assumption that they have just come, at every instant, from a state of greater order.

What do you mean by things as they are, and what is your evidence that they come from a greater order? This is highly suspicious. :(

Life, on the other hand, is a local decrease of entropy, or a local ordering of the Universe. This is evident with the complexity of organisms, which tend toward greater complexity with time if viewed in an evolutionary sense.

Personally, I don't find it useful to distinguish life from non-life. There isn't really a difference to me. Same with consciousness.

The reason why I don't see what you call life as more complex than anything else is because no matter where you draw the line for anything, there are an infinite number of causes working within it and without it. There is no such thing as a pocket of happenings with more causes going on than some other pocket.

Life cannot become more ordered except at the overall expense of order in the Universe as a whole.

Ultimately, there is no such thing as order. There is only CHAOS!!!

To me, that the past is necessarily more ordered, and that life itself tends toward greater order, is large scale evidence of a Creator or at least creative agency. Not proof, but suggestive evidence, IMO.

:(

we (humans) are special among living things in that we can perceive ourselves and make abstract external representations of internal processes, such as thoughts and ideas.

Saying special makes it sound like you think we have inherently higher value than other things. It does feel nice to think that, but it's also kinda girly. I know that I am NOT special and that I am ALONE. And I'm ok with that.

In addition, these external representations are not of equal complexity. More energy must be spent learning the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus than must be spent learning 1+1=2. A deck of cards does not get into order, it must be put there. More energy is spent, say, arranging the cards into perfect order than would be spent on arranging it so that the top half is the red suits and the bottom half the black suits. The level of complexity, and therefore order, available to the human mind is greater than that of other known minds.

Your perspective is too zoomed in to see the bigger picture. You need to spend more time seriously questioning your beliefs if you're still interested in what is real and what is not. Or, if you're out of questions, so be it. :)

[brokenhead]

Your perspective is too zoomed in to see the bigger picture. You need to spend more time seriously questioning your beliefs if you're still interested in what is real and what is not. Or, if you're out of questions, so be it. :)

And

What I'm talking about is looking at them in a larger context, to zoom out until everything and anything that can be imagined is included, and to consider the causal ramifications of these particular things in that context. From there, whether it is different math systems, or a rock or a human, nothing is special and nothing is unspecial, complex or simple.

I can do that, too. Do you know what your navel is really for? It's there so you can have some place to keep salt when you are eating celery stalks in bed.

I have to say, I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you trying to use some scientific theory as supportive evidence for God and needing to feel special? :(

No, I am explicitly trying to use my education to grapple with Big Questions.

I have been to where the dual parsing of information ceases. I used legal drugs in not recommended doses, but I am sure some illegal drugs would take you there as well. That was then, this is now. It seems I have retained an inordinate proportion of my brain cells. So I am "zooming" (as you put it) back to where thinking is allowed.

What do you mean by things as they are, and what is your evidence that they come from a greater order? This is highly suspicious. :(

The Second Law of Thermodynamics. I would prefer not to reinvent the wheel.

Saying special makes it sound like you think we have inherently higher value than other things. It does feel nice to think that, but it's also kinda girly. I know that I am NOT special and that I am ALONE. And I'm ok with that.

You cannot be serious. Are you still living on peanut butter and raw broccoli, Skip? It's perfectly all right with me if you don't feel special, and I certainly do not want to intrude upon your being alone. But if you want me to agree that a human - a generic human with a soul - is not special compared to a rock, we must part ways.

I happen to think it is empty-headed to not prefer the company of a living thing, say a dog, to the company of a rock. And empty-headedness is kinda girly in my book.

[skipair]

It's perfectly all right with me if you don't feel special, and I certainly do not want to intrude upon your being alone. But if you want me to agree that a human - a generic human with a soul - is not special compared to a rock, we must part ways.

I happen to think it is empty-headed to not prefer the company of a living thing, say a dog, to the company of a rock. And empty-headedness is kinda girly in my book.

I like dogs until I've had enough of them, then they can run along. I like chill and/or passionate, interesting, intelligent people, until it's time for something else I like doing. I like crisp, juicy apples. Hot, juicy pussies. Nature shows with bears. Sitting on a rock by a mountain stream. Super Mario 3. Navel gazing. Hawaiian beaches. Genius Forum. Cheese, steak, yoga, and gin.

And there are all kinds of things I don't like. Please don't mistake my ability to get cold and detached for someone who is ALWAYS cold and detached. That is a potentially dangerous aspect of talking philosophy and this forum in general, that because of a serious, single minded examination of this life we find ourselves in (and seeing others do the same), that we might forget that not everything is a serious matter. It's also dangerous to live too lightly and without enough serious consideration. There MUST be a balance.

The point as I see it is not to deny that an interesting person is often better company than a rock. It is to always keep in mind the greater context of this or any experience by opening the causal eye. I never had one sip of alcohol or did any drugs when mine first started to open. No one taught me how just as I can't teach you or anyone else. The situation just needs to be set up so that through curiosity it gets discovered. It's the world, plus a little something extra.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Brokenhead,

Good point, Shah. Ryan could make his point moe valid by limiting it to the known natural world.

yes, I can only be certain of the known world when making such a claim, and that is why I used the word "probably" which Shah failed to notice. To expand, the brain could be one of the more complicated systems in the universe because we know that natural selection must work the same everywhere, and we know that natural selection is a crude, slow, wasteful process that often times creates lower levels of organization that must be added upon before anything more complex can arise. IE: the Neocortex is implanted nicely on the reptile and mammalian brains. Thanks for the emotional baggage Natural Selection! And so here we are, highly evolved brains, with huge imperfections. So one could deduce that on other planets, it must happen very similar - meaning small slow steps of lower order organization leading to higher order complexity by sloppily evolving one on top of the other...

However, if another intelligence was able to alter their brains with technology such as robotics or genetic engineering then they would have a cognitive instrument much more stable, powerful, and complicated than ours, but that is another story altogether...

[dysfunctionalgenius]

The above queston (topic) and use of the word 'special' with its obvious connotations can only suggest

ego!

[Pincho Paxton]

What makes humans any different from any other system? We respond to stimuli based on cause and effect. There is the occasional mix up that we can't find the reason behind, but it's always there. I don't see how theres anything different between me and the tectonic plate movement system besides complexity.

We use more message pulses. The tectonic plate uses some simple pulses like hold your shape, and pass messages of heat, and pass particles in the direction of flow, pass colour information, pass electron energy between the next particle. We use the messages, and also analyse them to convert them into much more complex messages.

[yana]

Well, what makes us special is one simple thing: our capacity for rational thoughts. Simple as that.

[ali.b]

The above queston (topic) and use of the word 'special' with its obvious connotations can only suggest

ego!

thats a meaningless comment,we have knowledge of facts and we tend to make statements out of thaem,we gather our facts ,think,then clearly realize that we are special,meaning we are different ,very different from every other species that we know on this planet that are ALIVE.so beacause of all the facts us saying we are special has got shit to do with ego!!!.thats saying something realistic and very much true not being egotistical :|

[RWI]

The human mind, whilst being based on simple stimuli response and basic cognition, has grown into an infinitely engrossing organ far surpassing anything similar to it.

Conscious Thought is the ultimate power on the planet, to dispute the significance of humanity's innovations is to be disputable, at least from my point of view.