Thought is the problem

[mansman]

balls out,

embrace this moment; remember: we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion.

If it's an illusion, how come I'm suffering? And how come I can't just turn the pain off by will power?

You could! if you believed you could.

[Shahrazad]

I don't believe you.

[maestro]

balls out,

embrace this moment; remember: we are eternal, all this pain is an illusion.

If it's an illusion, how come I'm suffering? And how come I can't just turn the pain off by will power?

You could! if you believed you could.

It is not that simple: The "I" is a creation of the left brain, while the pain is again a creation of the left brain. For the right brain there is neither pain nor pleasure nor health nor disease, since these are labels on sensations. Therefore, the "I" can never get rid of its various afflictions. What can happen is a shift in the functioning or the organism in which the afflictions and the associated questions do not arise.

[Jamesh]

For the right brain there is neither pain nor pleasure nor health nor disease, since these are labels on sensations.

Nope...the hemispheres are like right handed and left handed. Being right handed just indicates more control and power for that arm/leg or whatever, not that the left hand is totally lacking in ability.

[maestro]

To make myself clear I do not fully believe in this localization of thinking and the "pure sensate" process along the hemispherical lines. In my experience the thought system comprises of the whole body and not just the brain. I just label the thought based system that lives on concepts and labels and past and present as left handed and the other pure sensate experience as right handed. Neither is dispensable, but right handed dominance is the way to be to live an infinitely richer life, than the neurotically left handed dominant default. Concepts are useful in their place, but not if they color each and every moment. IMO for a normal person the ratio of left to right experience over a lifetime might be 99.99:0.01, and these 0.01 are termed as experiences of great bliss beauty etc. Best is to turn the ratio to 10:90, 10 percent time is enough to navigate the conceptual world well enough.

[David Quinn]

She did refer to her experience as "nirvana" and she indicates that she believes in reincarnation, describing death as a "transition".

I cannot see any problem with that
Nirvana because the self no longer existed.

And yet there she is, gorging on her mother as though nothing ever happened.

Death is a transition like any other, a reshuffling of the universe, which anyhow happens moment to moment.

That is a very generous reading of her thoughts and behaviour. I have little doubt that she meant literal reincarnation - for example, her saying that her impending death was an "intersection between two different planes of reality". It is the reason why the likes of Oprah have sidled up to her.

-

[guest_of_logic]

Oh, but Laird's dictionary.com says otherwise.

Somebody died and left me a dictionary? Why didn't anyone tell me earlier? I'd love to have known that I now have QRS-like powers.

[Dan Rowden]

I guess it must be tough to lack the flexibility and depth of mind to not be able to think outside or beyond or more deeply than the dictionary meaning of everything. You have my sympathy.

[guest_of_logic]

Jeez mate, that's a bit harsh. Using words to mean what they're communally agreed to mean simply promotes effective communication. It says nothing about one's flexibility or depth of mind, and is completely consistent with an ability to consider concepts and meanings other than those associated with existing words.

[Cory Duchesne]

I doubt this very much. The enlightened person you speak of is thought bound, but the nature of the thinking is significantly different. It's just a different way of thinking, a way of thinking that has as many debilitating limitations as the more 'left brained' way of thinking.

The thinking is limited, but it does not bound the enlightened. The difference is that thought has a dictatorial rule over the unenlightened.

I don't think it's fair to not mention emotions and the relationship they have to these problematic thoughts. I think that certain types of thought processes are the foundation of emotions, creating emotion-bound thought processes. If you override these inferior thought processes with superior ones, then you can override the emotions/attachment.

"me" "you" "food" "bed" "woman" "tree" - having those left brained thoughts is necessary to function. The problem starts when the organism becomes attached to various things. The culprit of course is poor quality thought processes. The fault lies with a lack of quality thought processes, not all thought. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This is the problem I have with Bohmian/Krishnamurtian philosophy. They want to throw thought out the window altogether. Plus, if you look into their work closely enough, you'll see that they both believe in attaining some kind of literal immortality and nirvana through cosmic consciousness. Ultimately, I think both Bohm and Krishnamurti have suffered a sort of reoccurring psychosis throughout their lives, despite producing some value here and there.

[Cory Duchesne]

Bohm & Krishnamurti talking about how the mind is separate from the the brain

Part 2

Believing in a super consciousness that exists apart from the brain is so tempting for some. Even to a great mind like Bohm, he just couldn't resist.

Krishnamurti was such a master at bamboozling people with sentiment and verbal manipulations.

[bert]

"Mystical" really just means outside perceptual norms. It might involve notions of the supernatural, but need not do.

when you experience more of yourself than you can express,that...is a mystic.

[mansman]

I don't believe you.

And why not?

[Shahrazad]

And why not?

Because I have been around for long enough to know that the world doesn't work that way. Placebos probably only work with people who are sabotaging their own health, and even then, the effects are subtle.

[mansman]

And why not?

Because I have been around for long enough to know that the world doesn't work that way. Placebos probably only work with people who are sabotaging their own health, and even then, the effects are subtle.

Humm...
well all along ive been under the impression that you're here to better your life, yourself, to embrace new ideas, learn, to change, to suffer this process now so as not to suffer later, anymore, advancement, perhaps not the exact words you would use but you get the point right.

Well maybe I am mistaken! Maybe you not now, not before, seriously considered becoming fully conscious-- as Jehu often says, Awakened. Maybe you're just here like so many for the pleasure of challenging self-proclaimed Brains and any other benefit you may receive from your activity here- such as improved spelling, learning new words, learning new facts, making new friends, being heard, nothing ground-breaking.
Worse even, in collusion with past detractors intent on exacting justice. Goodness No!

Who really knows why you are here other than you yourself- and possibly myself if only you would tell me.

So then I am almost ready now to respond to your answer to my question, to point out the flaws and to be of some service. Just got to be sure its worth my trouble.

:)

[Shahrazad]

mansman,

well all along ive been under the impression that you're here to better your life, yourself, to embrace new ideas, learn, to change, to suffer this process now so as not to suffer later, anymore, advancement, perhaps not the exact words you would use but you get the point right.

All that is true.

Well maybe I am mistaken! Maybe you not now, not before, seriously considered becoming fully conscious-- as Jehu often says, Awakened. Maybe you're just here like so many for the pleasure of challenging self-proclaimed Brains and any other benefit you may receive from your activity here- such as improved spelling, learning new words, learning new facts, making new friends, being heard, nothing ground-breaking.
Worse even, in collusion with past detractors intent on exacting justice. Goodness No!

You concluded all this only because I don't believe all pain can go away just by believing it will? Wow.

Who really knows why you are here other than you yourself- and possibly myself if only you would tell me.

I am here because I like the philosophy that is discussed. Becoming a Buddha isn't my cup of tea, as it is incompatible with my stated goals, but that doesn't mean I can't become a more mature adult and increase my understanding. I believe suffering can be reduced even if not completely eliminated.

And why are you here?

[mansman]

mansman,

well all along ive been under the impression that you're here to better your life, yourself, to embrace new ideas, learn, to change, to suffer this process now so as not to suffer later, anymore, advancement, perhaps not the exact words you would use but you get the point right.

All that is true.

Well maybe I am mistaken! Maybe you not now, not before, seriously considered becoming fully conscious-- as Jehu often says, Awakened. Maybe you're just here like so many for the pleasure of challenging self-proclaimed Brains and any other benefit you may receive from your activity here- such as improved spelling, learning new words, learning new facts, making new friends, being heard, nothing ground-breaking.
Worse even, in collusion with past detractors intent on exacting justice. Goodness No!

You concluded all this only because I don't believe all pain can go away just by believing it will? Wow.

Who really knows why you are here other than you yourself- and possibly myself if only you would tell me.

I am here because I like the philosophy that is discussed.

Shahrazad, I appreciate you saying so I appreciate knowing but im finding myself stuck here re-reading this sentence because it appears to have several possible interpretations and i dont know which belongs to you! Now I dont wish to limit or shape your expression with specific ideas of my own except to say Id very much appreciate it if you would clarify your position.
Then I would better know what to say, where to get involved and where not to, etc.

Becoming a Buddha isn't my cup of tea, as it is incompatible with my stated goals, but that doesn't mean I can't become a more mature adult and increase my understanding. I believe suffering can be reduced even if not completely eliminated.

And why are you here?

Would you believe-- to learn how to write in this language!
Please bear with me as as i previously explained English is not my original language which is all i can say at this point. I often try very hard to chose the best words but sometimes even when i get it right and the meaning is clear my sentences appear clumsy and strange as im sure you've noticed.

M

[Ignius]

You see Dan, this is what happens when people don't understand each other -> "Thought is the problem" (lol)

[Trevor Salyzyn]

I muted the speakers when she started talking about the right hemisphere. Her movements were animated enough to read. Looks like her conscious interpretation was utterly inane.

[Ignius]

Well, what did you expect? I read the title and made a post! I dislike stupid sounding titles.

[dysfunctionalgenius]

Thoughts are not the problem.

If you have ever enjoyed happinnes, contentment or anything alike you would understand that surely.

It is the meaning we give thoughts that create the problems. Just like desires.

If i think about needing 2 buy a motorbike every day and cannot afford one i surely create a problem, if i think less of it and concentrate 'thought' on what i have as well as on the 'now' i have less of a problem.

Sounds cliched but it feels right

[Anders Schlander]

What she is describing when she appearently lost her internal voice, connecting her to the external world almost sounds like me on the occasions, When I've been in touch with nature without these everyday life disturbances, so to speak.

I would disagree that such an experience has no thought, that the experience has thought, but free from the influence of any other motivations but observing nature, and nature's reality, and is thus not putting emphasis on the 'I' and ones personal needs.



The insight in how she explains her normal brain shift in perception is not new to me, but its the first time i've heard of a person like that knowing herself, how 'the other side' was like. She's obviously still holding on dearly to her developed left-brain.