Unconsciousness as a threat to the Species

[1otherS]

Well, "let's hope" you got properly fucked up?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Nick,

I disagree completely. Enlightenment is not only a lifelong exercise, it's a life long commitment, and if we aren't on guard not just every day, but every hour and every minute, one could just as quickly lose everything they gained to the unconscious world they are fixated on. I know in my case I'm always fearful I might lose myself to the clutches of unconsciousness.

I don’t see a need to be that paranoid about losing what you gained. I don’t even have any knowledge of what I have gained, if I have gained anything, all I know is that I have much less emotions these days, so if in the future, I start becoming emotional/confused, then I know I should reexamine my life, and make some changes, and logically go through the steps to become clear in mind once more. Basically, I'm skeptical of what it means to be on guard every minute in a mental sense, it sounds like a pretty busy mental state to me…

I'm getting older now, and I've had enough busy mental states for one lifetime...

Enlightenment is by far the hardest thing anyone can accomplish. There is no set of instructions, no map, and no companion, just you and reason. The dedication required to achieve something you can't even see or touch or experience is incredible.

I don’t think there is as much perseverance as you would like to believe, I just think some people have the right genes for it, combined with the right environment. They are intellectuals by nature, and so they have to the mind power to become logical, and clear up the delusions in their minds. I just don’t see the need for anything in the mind that needs to persevere through something, unless there are delusions, but if a person keeps coming back, it is no choice of theirs anyway…

it reminds me of the outlook of Christians - they believe there is a cross that one must carry ones whole life, and one must persevere through it until the end. However, metaphorically I believe that the cross stands for one's delusions, one's negative habits, conditioning and so on. However, once the bulk of it has ended, the cross goes with them, and there is nothing significant left. The temptation is the desire to want to believe that there is always a cross there facing you head on, which gives you the illusion that you are struggling against something. The belief that there is a cross in your way creates the feeling of struggle. Basically, just thinking that there is a cross creates the illusion of one.

Brad,

Computers may be cheaper but they're inefficient and wasteful for entertainment. Typically the computer's interactive nature limits its use to one person at a time, whereas an entire Superbowl party can use one TV. Also the planned obsolescence of computer equipment creates massive amounts of toxic electronic waste. TVs easily last years or in some cases decades without losing usefulness.

It seems slightly wasteful now, but even in ten years, computers will be much smaller and faster, and more developed countries are now recycling their components.

If it got realistic enough, like a holodeck, many of people's materialistic desires, which today are desires for cars, houses, clothes, holidays etc, might be fulfilled in the virtual world instead of the real world.

Yeah, companies such as Nintendo and others will probably eventually merge with computer giants to produce halodecks consoles that fill entire rooms. An arcade might evolve to be a large number of empty rooms with halodeck equipment.

Cory,

My life is dictated by motivation, which is intrinsically tied to my likes and dislikes. Aside from that, sensual enjoyment on the most mundane level is not worth the trouble of avoiding - and in some cases is inescapable.

Yes, but some of your likes are indeed sensual if you examine them. And some of your sensual likes make your life much more enjoyable, no? Food, for instance, is both a necessity and a pleasure, and should be accepted as both containing both properties, rather than just one.

A man must negate all sensual experiences for a period until he reaches a state where no experience can ever have a hold over him, then he is mature and wise enough to enjoy sensual experiences again, both the beautiful and the ugly...

[Nick]

I don’t see a need to be that paranoid about losing what you gained.

I don't see it as being paranoid, I see it as understanding the reality of the situation, which is that sustaining consciousness takes conscious effort, and if one becomes lackadaisical about this they could easily slip back into mediocrity.

Basically, I'm skeptical of what it means to be on guard every minute in a mental sense, it sounds like a pretty busy mental state to me…

Well in my case my entire environment is unconscious, and for my consciousness to persist in such an environment it can be very difficult. It's like a crystal glass being placed in a meteor shower.

I don’t think there is as much perseverance as you would like to believe, I just think some people have the right genes for it, combined with the right environment. They are intellectuals by nature, and so they have to the mind power to become logical, and clear up the delusions in their minds. I just don’t see the need for anything in the mind that needs to persevere through something, unless there are delusions, but if a person keeps coming back, it is no choice of theirs anyway…

I get the feeling that you are very isolated from unconsciousness, which causes you to believe you perfected yourself as much as possible. I don't think you are tested or being pushed enough. Isolating one's self can be good for focus, but it can also work against you and cause complacency allowing one's delusions to simmer beneath the surface, waiting to be triggered.

it reminds me of the outlook of Christians - they believe there is a cross that one must carry ones whole life, and one must persevere through it until the end. However, metaphorically I believe that the cross stands for one's delusions, one's negative habits, conditioning and so on. However, once the bulk of it has ended, the cross goes with them, and there is nothing significant left. The temptation is the desire to want to believe that there is always a cross there facing you head on, which gives you the illusion that you are struggling against something. The belief that there is a cross in your way creates the feeling of struggle. Basically, just thinking that there is a cross creates the illusion of one.

Yes, taking pride in one's struggles is complete idiocy, but my point is that delusions can slowly creep into our minds, so it is best to always be on guard for this reason.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Nick,

Yes, taking pride in one's struggles is complete idiocy, but my point is that delusions can slowly creep into our minds, so it is best to always be on guard for this reason.

yes, I agree. However, once you get to a certain stage, if you relapse a bit into emotionalism, there is a more solid foundation mentally, and therefore one can reason one's way out of unconscious cognitive patterns. Basically, it seems that the longer one remains conscious, the better it is as far as recovery from emotionalism is concerned.

[DivineIntercourse]

Basically, I'm skeptical of what it means to be on guard every minute in a mental sense, it sounds like a pretty busy mental state to me…

It doesn't have to be. For instance, when one repeats something over and over again, it becomes a habit and natural to oneself. It's kind of like meditation for newbies; it's difficult at first to remain concentrated and clear minded, but with each repetition, this exercise becomes less and less difficult. Eventually, it becomes second nature.

They are intellectuals by nature, and so they have to the mind power to become logical, and clear up the delusions in their minds. I just don’t see the need for anything in the mind that needs to persevere through something, unless there are delusions, but if a person keeps coming back, it is no choice of theirs anyway…

Of course it's a choice. Or rather it's not a choice when the choice has already been made, but it is a choice before it is made (That does make sense!). We don't always make the right choices, because no one was born perfect, so I think that which separates the smart from the not-so-smart is a matter of making the right choices. In order to make the right choices we need perseverance -- get knocked down, get up, brush off, and try again.

metaphorically I believe that the cross stands for one's delusions, one's negative habits, conditioning and so on.

It's also about physical pain and deriving some kind of meaning from it. If someone didn't believe that their pain meant something more then pure bad luck, then why bother living if it's so unbearable and pointless. During such extreme pain, delusions play a large part in softening the blow. It favors survival rather than demise.

The temptation is the desire to want to believe that there is always a cross there facing you head on, which gives you the illusion that you are struggling against something.

I've noticed this as well. I think this happens for a number of reasons: for one, we know that we're not perfect, so we create things that will motivate us to continue bettering ourselves.

The belief that there is a cross in your way creates the feeling of struggle. Basically, just thinking that there is a cross creates the illusion of one.

When we work towards achieving something and when we finally achieve it, we all have these reward pathways in our brains that make us feel... fulfilled. If we didn't have this, then there wouldn't be any such motivation to achieve anything, and if this happened then there would be no point in striving to perfect ourselves.

A man must negate all sensual experiences for a period until he reaches a state where no experience can ever have a hold over him, then he is mature and wise enough to enjoy sensual experiences again, both the beautiful and the ugly...

What prevents him from not becoming too attached to a form of that pleasure? Isn't it sort of like a former drug addict dabbling with drugs again?

Well in my case my entire environment is unconscious, and for my consciousness to persist in such an environment it can be very difficult. It's like a crystal glass being placed in a meteor shower.

Our minds are partly (if not more so) representations (for lack of a better word) of our environments. So it definitely makes sense. The following illustrates this point quite well: a child being raised in a dull and uneventful environment will most likely become dull and uneventful. Do the same, but within a completely opposite type of environment and the likelihood is that the child will now be exciting and full of energy.

New and exciting info of yesterday, becomes the old and boring info of today.

Yes, taking pride in one's struggles is complete idiocy, but my point is that delusions can slowly creep into our minds, so it is best to always be on guard for this reason.

What's wrong with getting a PhD and feeling proud of one's accomplishments? For ex. If I reach the 300lb bench-press mark, then I'll be happy, and that will fuel me to continue improving. The worst would be if I wasn't seeing any gains, then pride would definitely be idiotic.

yes, I agree. However, once you get to a certain stage, if you relapse a bit into emotionalism, there is a more solid foundation mentally, and therefore one can reason one's way out of unconscious cognitive patterns. Basically, it seems that the longer one remains conscious, the better it is as far as recovery from emotionalism is concerned.

If you could get the emotional part of you safely removed surgically, would you do so, so that there would be no chance of a relapse?

[Ryan Rudolph]

DivineIntercourse,

What prevents him from not becoming too attached to a form of that pleasure? Isn't it sort of like a former drug addict dabbling with drugs again?

There is always that possibility, and some forms of pleasure still have that potential. However, the emotionalism experienced can be reflected upon, and negated as delusions easier. It is almost as if an experienced philosopher who has abided in emptiness for some time isn’t as devastated by pleasure as in his younger days, but the pleasure can still have negative cognitive effects.

[DivineIntercourse]

Question: can one feel physical pleasure without an emotional involvement?

There is always that possibility, and some forms of pleasure still have that potential.

Which forms of pleasure do not?

It is almost as if an experienced philosopher who has abided in emptiness for some time isn’t as devastated by pleasure as in his younger days, but the pleasure can still have negative cognitive effects.

Would it make sense to think that a fully enlightened being does partake in pleasure, but the pleasure experienced has no emotional attachment involved to it (Hence, something can be very stimulating for quite some time, but once it is gone, it is not missed)? Would this be a correct assumption? Further, if these negative cognitive effects are experienced could the reason for this not be explored and fixed, in a different way, then to simply remove the pleasure -- I mean, if in that case, we were to remove the pleasure, it could be seen as a cop-out or running away as opposed to dealing with it and finding a solution (ex. you have a math problem which you don't know how to solve, so instead of looking it up (or whatever), throw it away and forget about it! Easy, isn't it?).

[Ryan Rudolph]

Divine Intercourse,

Which forms of pleasure do not?

If you are an experienced philosopher, you can enjoy simple things like food, good weather, exercise, a good book, a good film, and forget it afterwards. Sexual relations is the tricky one, as there seems to be more emotions involved.

Would it make sense to think that a fully enlightened being does partake in pleasure, but the pleasure experienced has no emotional attachment involved to it (Hence, something can be very stimulating for quite some time, but once it is gone, it is not missed)?

Yes, I would think so. One only negates the world as a means to fully understand it, thus one can enjoy certain pleasures easier because one is living moment to moment, rather than constantly longing to repeat a past moment.

Would this be a correct assumption? Further, if these negative cognitive effects are experienced could the reason for this not be explored and fixed, in a different way, then to simply remove the pleasure -- I mean, if in that case, we were to remove the pleasure, it could be seen as a cop-out or running away as opposed to dealing with it and finding a solution (ex. you have a math problem which you don't know how to solve, so instead of looking it up (or whatever), throw it away and forget about it! Easy, isn't it?).

Yes, I would think that one would have to decide whether a certain pleasurable experience is threatening in a spiritual sense, and if it is, and cannot be fixed or resolved logically on a permanent basis, then total negation may be the only viable option.

Eg:// Sex is perhaps one such case, although I personally noticed that sex with a young beautiful woman is much more threatening to ones spirit than with an average middle-aged woman. Young Beautiful woman invoke strong feelings of desire, and once one experiences sex and intimacy with them, one doesn’t want to lose their beauty, emotional comfort, and pleasure from one's life. Basically, the human mind naturally gravitates towards possessing fertile beautiful sexual things, but average things do not seem to have the same drastic effect, although they can have some sort of negative neurological effect, probably similar to a relatively weaker narcotic addiction, as you say.

[Nick]

However, once you get to a certain stage, if you relapse a bit into emotionalism, there is a more solid foundation mentally, and therefore one can reason one's way out of unconscious cognitive patterns. Basically, it seems that the longer one remains conscious, the better it is as far as recovery from emotionalism is concerned.

True, but isn't the point to stop slipping in and out of emotionalism, i.e. fully transcending Samsara?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Nick,

True, but isn't the point to stop slipping in and out of emotionalism, i.e. fully transcending Samsara?

That should be the ultimate ideal, but fully transcending samsara/emotionalism is very difficult given the fact that our genetic roots are so dark and flawed.

Some emotionalism seems to be present in most logical thinkers, despite how many years they dedicate to a strict habit of wisdom reinforcing behaviors. It is almost as if there is quite a bit of emotional imperfections at the root of our biological organism.

[mystex]

That should be the ultimate ideal, but fully transcending samsara/emotionalism is very difficult given the fact that our genetic roots are so dark and flawed.

No, I disagree. It starts off perfectly. We must somehow comeback to truth.

It is almost as if there is quite a bit of emotional imperfections at the root of our biological organism.

Negative emotions come from a flawed understanding of suffering during an experience (ex. revenge). This is why I don't hate my parents.