Jed

[Dan Rowden]

Girls do like gurus. It's fun, directing your "devotion" onto something tangible. I think the sheer number of females in this position is what makes McKenna write the way he does. Over and over, he provides himself [fictional] opportunities to act from the male/female divide, and he doesn't. He treats the women like possible enlightened beings just like the males. But why would he do this if there are NO enlightened females on the planet? Beats me, but that is why I think he's a revolutionary. It gives me hope.

McKenna doesn't do heart; I don't do hope. Hope is a poor substitute for real purpose and determination. It can be a trap, one that we rest in when we should be working, like a comfy sofa.

Mm, I meant hope for humanity, and female-kind. That it is actually possible for us to stop being stupid. It makes me work harder, seeing that the possibilities are wide open. Maybe "hope" is not the right word. I will have to think about that.

Forget humanity and forget females. Fuck them! This is about you. Try not to address the matter in any sort of collective way. Even if you make progress, you can't necessarily extrapolate and project that success onto others, women or men. You may simply be exceptional. If and when such "success" happens, then you can consider those others, if you happen to be of that proclivity. From there it's very much just a scientific experiment that one engages in.

You really have to let others look after themselves right now. Their level of delusion isn't necessarily here nor there for you. You see the issues, at least to some extent, right? They don't, right? So, in that fact alone you've moved ahead. Might that possibility be so for those others? Who knows; who gives a fuck. Those others don't!

[Dan Rowden]

How about optimistic? Optimistic's okay.

But yeah, hope is a drug one should do without.

I don't care much for optimism either. I think one should just be as purposeful as one finds oneself being. Both hope and optimism can substitute for will and action. I mean, I don't have a huge issue with them, but I guess I find them somewhat redundant concepts in the face of genuine drive and purpose. If I have a burning ambition to achieve some end, what is there to be optimistic about? That I can? Well, I don't really know that, do I? Isn't it the purity and force of that ambition that will actually determine it? What if one day my optimistic feelings fail me? Will that undermine my determination?

Nevermind hope and optimism. Just get the hell on with it.

[Ataraxia]

Try not to address the matter in any sort of collective way.

To Jed's credit he does appear to really emphasise that.

[Jason]

I don't care much for optimism either. I think one should just be as purposeful as one finds oneself being. Both hope and optimism can substitute for will and action.

How about "possibility"?

[Dan Rowden]

Yep, that works. It's more realistic.

[rebecca702]

Both hope and optimism can substitute for will and action. I mean, I don't have a huge issue with them, but I guess I find them somewhat redundant concepts in the face of genuine drive and purpose. If I have a burning ambition to achieve some end, what is there to be optimistic about? That I can? Well, I don't really know that, do I? Isn't it the purity and force of that ambition that will actually determine it? What if one day my optimistic feelings fail me? Will that undermine my determination?

Nevermind hope and optimism. Just get the hell on with it.

Yeah, I see your point. Your actions will be their own reward. If you are dependent on optimism to fuel you, that is foolish as love and all the rest. Another related theme, independence. Independence is needed, outwardly from society, and also inwardly, from your own emotions. Courage to go into uncharted territory. Right... and courage does not need a motivator. If it's arising from something else, it's not true courage. Where does courage come from? Pure strength of will?

[mystex]

I know exactly why this sorta thing took place.

[Cory Duchesne]

How about optimistic? Optimistic's okay.

But yeah, hope is a drug one should do without.

I don't care much for optimism either. I think one should just be as purposeful as one finds oneself being. Both hope and optimism can substitute for will and action. I mean, I don't have a huge issue with them, but I guess I find them somewhat redundant concepts in the face of genuine drive and purpose. If I have a burning ambition to achieve some end, what is there to be optimistic about? That I can? Well, I don't really know that, do I?

To me, optimism isn't necessarily about knowing the future with certainty, but about valuing the achievement of something that is possible. In the case of enlightenment, one values the solution to the problem of one's ignorance.

Your point about how we shouldn't focus on changing the collective (before changing ourselves, at least) is a good one, of course. But I think optimistic is a reasonable word to describe anyone who is determined to achieve enlightenment (or anything). There are vastly different ways of allocating our capacity for optimism, and I think your beef is more about the allocation of our optimism, rather than with optimism itself. But maybe not.

Isn't it the purity and force of that ambition that will actually determine it?

The whole concept of 'will' doesn't even seem coherent to me unless it involves an observer who is attentive and watchful for particular possibilities.

What if one day my optimistic feelings fail me? Will that undermine my determination?

Burning ambition (as you said) sounds an awful lot like a feeling to me - and I see no reason why such a feeling would not be subject to fail.

I consider burning ambition, a form of optimism, but I don't think optimism has to involve strong feelings. It's simply having the mind's eye alert to certain stimuli that appear relevant to one's problem. If you have a burning desire, but no attentive, methodical watchfulness, then what hope is there for you?

[Dan Rowden]

Where does courage come from? Pure strength of will?

Pretty much, yes. Courage is really just conscious determination overcoming other forces such as fear and attachments of various kinds.

[Jason]

If I have a burning ambition to achieve some end, what is there to be optimistic about? That I can? Well, I don't really know that, do I? Isn't it the purity and force of that ambition that will actually determine it?

If purity and force of ambition are what determine success, and you have enough of these qualities that you think it likely that you will succeed, wouldn't that reasonably lead to optimism?

[rebecca702]

If I have a burning ambition to achieve some end, what is there to be optimistic about? That I can? Well, I don't really know that, do I? Isn't it the purity and force of that ambition that will actually determine it?

If purity and force of ambition are what determine success, and you have enough of these qualities that you think it likely that you will succeed, wouldn't that reasonably lead to optimism?

So optimism is a by-product, is that what you are saying?

[Jason]

So optimism is a by-product, is that what you are saying?

Optimism would be a product of believing that you have enough purity and force of ambition to succeed.

[Cory Duchesne]

I don't see why belief has to be involved. Why believe that something will happen, when it very well might not happen?

[mystex]

Courage is really just conscious determination overcoming other forces such as fear and attachments of various kinds.

I'd make a distinction between sane-courage and insane-courage. The former is when the odds of achieving something greater is in one's favor.

[Jason]

I don't see why belief has to be involved. Why believe that something will happen, when it very well might not happen?

I meant the belief that success is likely to occur given one's level of ambition and determination, not the belief that it certainly will occur.

[mystex]

The belief that it certainly will occur makes the former all that much more likely. There are realistic beliefs and then there are unrealistic beliefs. Two examples of both: you cut a limb off and believe that it'll grow back vs. you believe you'll ace your midterms even though you missed two-thirds' of the semester.

[Iolaus]

Asks Rebecca,

Does anybody have any comments on that?

I have to admit that I am, or have been, on a path with heart. And for the most part, I am sataisfied that it has brought to me wisdom and insight. I have yet to really understand this business about mysticism versus enlightenment. And I think his advice to Arthur is correct, that he should concentrate on his own situation and not worry about others. Nonetheless, I don't really see a conflict. For me, that is. Perhaps for Arthur, who was a fool.

Dan asks,

From that excerpt you can tell that McKenna gets that she doesn't get it, but you have to wonder why he continues. Does he think there's some chance she will?

Hell yes! I do think he is using her as a literary device, but I can think back on when I was a teenager, and met up with some hippies into zazen, and a few conversations that left me very perplexed, which if I had inquired further or someone had hammered away at me a little more, I could have saved 20 years. Our culture, the western christianity thing, teaches separatism very deeply, and it gets very entrenched and hard to uproot.

[David Quinn]

I'm with Carl here. It sounds like a sexual fantasy to me.

It may not be a fantasy, he is a guru after all. Girls have a thing for gurus. One of the reasons is due to the power and god like stature of the guru over his group.

Look at the last quote posted by Rebecca. McKenna displays a classic seducer's mentality.

First, he has the woman almost wimpering at his every movement. He paints her as though she is sitting at his feet in adoration, listening intently to his every word. But then he starts abusing her and womankind in general (in his mind, to the reader), labelling her dull-witted and uncomprehending. Then he tries again, paying her attention, reading her a passage from the Gita, building her up once more. Then he starts to abuse her again, recalling in the process that women historically have made no inroads into spiritual wisdom. And so it goes on.

This cycle of building up and then abusing the female is a classic seducer's technique. Marquis de Sade would have been proud of him.

I think he has serious woman issues which he hasn't resolved.

-

[rebecca702]

Courage is really just conscious determination overcoming other forces such as fear and attachments of various kinds.

I'd make a distinction between sane-courage and insane-courage. The former is when the odds of achieving something greater is in one's favor.

That strikes me as pure gibberish. Who's to judge what is sane and insane? Certainly not me, and certainly not some outside authority, some objective perspective. Only hindsight.

Look at the last quote posted by Rebecca. McKenna displays a classic seducer's mentality.

First, he has the woman almost wimpering at his every movement. He paints her as though she is sitting at his feet in adoration, listening intently to his every word. But then he starts abusing her and womankind in general (in his mind, to the reader), labelling her dull-witted and uncomprehending. Then he tries again, paying her attention, reading her a passage from the Gita, building her up once more. Then he starts to abuse her again, recalling in the process that women historically have made no inroads into spiritual wisdom. And so it goes on.

This cycle of building up and then abusing the female is a classic seducer's technique. Marquis de Sade would have been proud of him.

I think he has serious woman issues which he hasn't resolved.

What's wrong with using a classic seducer's technique to get people to look at the truth? He's abusing her indeed. But that's what she needs, don't you think? I know that's kind of like the "she was asking for it" argument, but he's not going near the sex issue with a ten-foot pole. What I mean is, in this situation it's his duty to not give her what she wants and instead break down her expectations. He would be doing her a disservice if he did any different.

If he were actively seeking out females, it would be manipulative and wrong. But they are coming to him.

"What is a good man but a bad man's teacher? What is a bad man but a good man's job?"

[maestro]

It seems Rebecaa, that you are trying to get QRS approval for Jed. How will this help, since either of these or both could be deluded.

[clyde]

Some doctors prescribe this medicine, some doctors prescribe that medicine.

This medicine works for these people, that medicine works for those people.

Why go on about such a simple matter?

clyde

[maestro]

Some doctors prescribe this medicine, some doctors prescribe that medicine.

This medicine works for these people, that medicine works for those people.

In the spiritual marketplace most are quacks, blind leading the blind.

[clyde]

maestro;

There are "quacks", but even placebos work, as long as the 'medicine' does no harm . . .

[maestro]

It is not about feeling better, it is about waking up. Shaking off centuries of conditioning.

[clyde]

maestro; I wrote "work", not "feeling better".