The Perfect Woman?

[sue hindmarsh]

Watching “Louis Theroux and the Brothel”, I found one of the brothel’s clients, Malcolm, (8mins 12sec in) held mostly what I reckon is a fairly sensible take on women. He told Louis that he’d been in relationships but found, to his regret, that there’s, “A little bit of whore in everything.” His experiences caused him to frequently visited brothels because, as he says, “I felt myself a lot more comfortable when I was with someone who was at least honest.”

If he held that view alone, I could have respected him for it. But no, he also describes that, “In a relationship, I would never mess around on anybody, or even think about anyone else”. This shows him to be just another ordinary guy who is stuck in the dream that there are better women to be had than the honest-whores. And that his driving desire is to find one of these women to call his own.

But even though Malcolm has experienced the two types, you get the feeling that he knows that he’s trapped no matter which way he goes. He ends his visit to the brothel by saying, “To the wonderful world of women. Or, the wonderful world of brothels, eh.”

[Shahrazad]

Was there a question there somewhere? Or a point? I know it's probably just me.

[Remo]

Sounds like he's tickling around the subject of the book "the Manipulated man"

[Pye]

The “honesty” that so impresses this fool is sexual honesty. And the pro can afford it, because she depends on him for nothing but his money. And since she depends on his money, I’d wager some valuable things that even her body will “lie” to him to seal the deal. Honesty my ass. This dude is afraid of all kinds of truth. And this pro can never be honest until she ceases to depend upon him for anything.

[Alex Jacob]

Actually, in this sort of system, everybody depends on each other for many different things, and the professional women are not at all outside of the loop of needing and getting. I watched the whole thing through (except No. 4 which was not there), and I noted that everyone in this system has emotional expectations and investments as well as monitory. In the end though what you mostly see and feel is all kinds of levels of dysfunction and the core underpinning, unhappiness, the sense of powerlessness and lack of faith in being able to get what one wants and needs (in life, in relationships, between men and women, economically). No matter how you turn it over, no matter what spin you put on it, it has the look and the feel of prostitution, something ugly, sad, something dead-end.

Sue, you seem much more than a mere cynic, you seem to have your own desire to perform violence 'on women' with your characterizations. You participate quite actively in something very ugly, a wishful-ugly-thinking toward your own sex, which must almost be interpreted as against your own person. The whole thing is quite psychologically suspect, I think.

I doubt that Malcolm was being 'honest' or finding 'honesty'---it would seem that is just a line he rehearses, for whose benefit who knows? Each of the people represented in that system suffer from very real defects of character, it seems to me. There is likely a path, a way, to something in life that could satisfy them, but the internal defect prevents this, and so they accept 'love's substitutes' (Hubert Selby Jr, Last Exit to Brooklyn), just to keep on living, to manage to somehow get by, until the point where living becomes intolerable.

Once again, here on GF, the ugly invisible beast raises its head, its the thing that explains some people here...

I HAVE THE CURES, I AM WILLING TO SHARE THEM...

[Dan Rowden]

But no, he also describes that, “In a relationship, I would never mess around on anybody, or even think about anyone else”. This shows him to be just another ordinary guy who is stuck in the dream that there are better women to be had than the honest-whores. And that his driving desire is to find one of these women to call his own.

A man is always craving the best possible reflection of his ideations of woman possible (because that's what he really loves, his ideations), therefore where it doesn't exist he has to artificially impose it in some way. Such is man's vanity.

[Blair]

Humans stink. Especially Women, they stink so bad.

Their vagina stinks, their ass stinks, their breath stinks.

Their character stinks.

They stink.

[BMcGilly07]

Watching “Louis Theroux and the Brothel”, I found one of the brothel’s clients, Malcolm, (8mins 12sec in) held mostly what I reckon is a fairly sensible take on women. He told Louis that he’d been in relationships but found, to his regret, that there’s, “A little bit of whore in everything.” His experiences caused him to frequently visited brothels because, as he says, “I felt myself a lot more comfortable when I was with someone who was at least honest.”

If he held that view alone, I could have respected him for it. But no, he also describes that, “In a relationship, I would never mess around on anybody, or even think about anyone else”. This shows him to be just another ordinary guy who is stuck in the dream that there are better women to be had than the honest-whores. And that his driving desire is to find one of these women to call his own.

But even though Malcolm has experienced the two types, you get the feeling that he knows that he’s trapped no matter which way he goes. He ends his visit to the brothel by saying, “To the wonderful world of women. Or, the wonderful world of brothels, eh.”

As an infant we are suckled and cradled in the all consuming, ocean-like consciousness of early ego formation where safety's confidence is soft cooing and supple breasts. Than, around the age of reason the young man is suddenly thrown to and fro, at the mercy of his hormones, he seeks to establish his individuality apart from mother and father yet is ingrained with the need for the comfort and assurance, the very validation of and meaning to his existence which is fulfillment through the feminine-other, in whose embrace he may yet again for an instant melt back into the ocean-like consciousness. Again he can feel his hollowness not as a burden, but as a vessel for the warmth and adoration "she" radiates.

Thus every man is born into this world of ego and identity, initially handicapped with his original sin, the need for another, even if she only comes from his flesh. Upon tasting the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil he must be cast from paradise because now the weight of consciousness - the very same weight which slingshots him into the heights, causes him to judge, and opens his eyes. One may ask why she doesn't remain in paradise, but being a creation of his mind, as if as his proxy she is made to do that most unnatural of functions, she must be made to think she is to judge for herself; and as Weininger rightfully pointed out this is the source of her hysteria, trying to force upon her finite animal nature the strictures and discipline of concepts and logic which come naturally to him but against which her inner nature cannot help but to rebel.

Personally speaking, my libido has all but vanished in the past few years since I was last involved with a merged void. I still have compulsions, but they are fleeting and very short-lived. Kierkegaard mentioned in his writings that an unusually traumatic or melancholic childhood often precludes the spiritual genius, I believe that is so because just as the age of reason begins to stir in the youth, he is assaulted on all fronts by his hormones and libido, and by tackling this inner urge he may come to hone his idealism- sparked from an earlier tragedy which he has internalized- however trivial, however insignificant such an event may be judged by others, he has chosen to judge himself against a standard and so he evolved and developed a character and profundity which may conspire to doom his romantic ventures. And so, even though the hypodermic needle of flesh competes with the ideals and romantic notions of his mind he may begin to open the doorway into the nature of mind, existence and what his true nature really is.

Long is the journey of the camel in the dark cold desert night, the starlight does not warm and the moonlight yet illuminates no distant destination; when he spies this distant destination and never reaches it, he comes to know with absolute certainty that it is in fact, a phantom city. Then he must morph into a lion and be his own master, his own lawmaker, his own law destroyer and his very own destiny. Then the real struggle begins, to be at last the laughing, life-affirming child with the mirror, fulfilled of himself.

[sue hindmarsh]

Dan Rowden wrote:

A man is always craving the best possible reflection of his ideations of woman possible (because that's what he really loves, his ideations), therefore where it doesn't exist he has to artificially impose it in some way. Such is man's vanity.

It's man's love of "his ideations" that set him apart from woman. It's this belief that there are heights yet to conquer, that make man suited for the philosophical life. And we do see that happening in Malcolm, for he does believe that he has in him a higher level of man than the one that uses prostitutes to "reconnect with the opposite sex". But what is so comical (and disappointing) is that the higher level of man to which he aspires to is that of the lowly 'married man'. To him that's heaven! It's his reaching for the stars! The highest of the high!

As I said in my opening post, I would have held him in some respect if he lived by his belief that, at base, all women are whores. But I can't find anything in him to respect when he's just another spineless wretch, castrated by woman, and at the complete mercy of a world that worships her.

[Pye]

Sue is good at pointing out problems, but void of the visionary thinking/acting needed to address them. You all should be used to that by now. This is a victim-view of cause and effect, rather than a conscious participator in same. That's what happens when you think the human being has no role in its own agency, has no-self with which to direct that role.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

What kind of visionary thinking or acting would lie beyond pointing out stuff, or the consciousness involved in being able to do that, or encouraging others to?

With whoring it's obvious there's no solution in participating. The participation is here the problem when it involves sacrificing principles for personal gain. The people working in the brothel are not really the whores, they already lack most principles or higher aim. But at least they do not pretend, nor does the visitor have to pretend much, compared to the average husband.

One first has to grow some principles, some real conscience before one can even talk about conscious participation, or even before one can become a whore. That can be facilitated with pointing out problems and really there's not that much more that can be done for someone else at this stage.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan Rowden wrote:

A man is always craving the best possible reflection of his ideations of woman possible (because that's what he really loves, his ideations), therefore where it doesn't exist he has to artificially impose it in some way. Such is man's vanity.

It's man's love of "his ideations" that set him apart from woman. It's this belief that there are heights yet to conquer, that make man suited for the philosophical life. And we do see that happening in Malcolm, for he does believe that he has in him a higher level of man than the one that uses prostitutes to "reconnect with the opposite sex". But what is so comical (and disappointing) is that the higher level of man to which he aspires to is that of the lowly 'married man'. To him that's heaven! It's his reaching for the stars! The highest of the high!

And that's the double-edged-sword nature of man's ideations - they can aim for the stars, or the dirt; too often, they are stuck in the mud.

Man aims for ideal bullshit.

[Ataraxia]

Interesting that Louis reaction when one of the girls indicated that the average penis of Asians was finger size,and even after she said they were comfortable with their size, he said she was being racist.

It seems to me people are just so conditioned to charge people with racism or bigotry at the drop of the hat these days without even thinking.

The girl was just reporting what she saw as an empirical fact for crying out loud.

[Jason]

Don't be fooled, Louis definitely goes in with various personal and "professional", conscious and unconscious agendas, and they play themselves out quite obviously in every show of his that I've seen. The asian penis size comment was either the product of idiocy, or I think just as likely he was simply trying to stir up some commotion for the camera.

[Jason]

The “honesty” that so impresses this fool is sexual honesty. And the pro can afford it, because she depends on him for nothing but his money.

Here you seem to say she can afford honesty...

And since she depends on his money, I’d wager some valuable things that even her body will “lie” to him to seal the deal. Honesty my ass. This dude is afraid of all kinds of truth. And this pro can never be honest until she ceases to depend upon him for anything.

Here you seem to say she cannot afford honesty...

I think it's possible to be honest to someone who you rely upon for money. It's also no certainty that honesty would disrupt the monetary transaction.

Are you focusing specifically on prostitutes in your argument? Because if a supermarket checkout worker were honest with all their customers, "You're so fat, you're hideous, it pains me to look at you." they'd probably lose customers too.

[Jason]

Actually, in this sort of system, everybody depends on each other for many different things,

What system? Conventional human society?

and the professional women are not at all outside of the loop of needing and getting. I watched the whole thing through (except No. 4 which was not there), and I noted that everyone in this system has emotional expectations and investments as well as monitory.

You must definitely be talking about conventional human society.

In the end though what you mostly see and feel is all kinds of levels of dysfunction and the core underpinning, unhappiness, the sense of powerlessness and lack of faith in being able to get what one wants and needs (in life, in relationships, between men and women, economically).

Definitely conventional human society.

No matter how you turn it over, no matter what spin you put on it, it has the look and the feel of prostitution, something ugly, sad, something dead-end.

Well, you're a sex-phobic prude, of course that's the only thing you'd ever be able to see in it.

I doubt that Malcolm was being 'honest' or finding 'honesty'---it would seem that is just a line he rehearses, for whose benefit who knows? Each of the people represented in that system suffer from very real defects of character, it seems to me. There is likely a path, a way, to something in life that could satisfy them, but the internal defect prevents this, and so they accept 'love's substitutes' (Hubert Selby Jr, Last Exit to Brooklyn), just to keep on living, to manage to somehow get by, until the point where living becomes intolerable.

You realize that the brothel owners were a former prostitute and one of her clients who had gotten married, right? Just because money changes hands for a sexual service doesn't eliminate the chance of sharing of honesty, empathy, caring, truth, love and so on that occurs outside of that context. But seeing as how demonized prostitution is, many people seem incapable of opening their minds to such possibilities. Prostitutes are human, clients are human, you may like to experiment with considering this and its ramifications at some point.

[sue hindmarsh]

Jason wrote:

Prostitutes are human

That's why Louis was there at the brothel. To show that the girls and women working as prostitutes all had personality illnesses that made them vulnerable to being in that situation. He was interested to see how others (the brothel owners, the staff, the clients, and over-all, how society) treated these vulnerable humans.

Don't be fooled, Louis definitely goes in with various personal and "professional", conscious and unconscious agendas, and they play themselves out quite obviously in every show of his that I've seen.

Louis has some definite ideas about life. He's able to express them and not be bashed up because he looks and sounds like a big kid. Just one look at that mop of dark hair, those glasses, that skinny overly tall body, and hearing that slightly nasally English accent - who really could take him seriously?! And that's exactly how he's able to get that close to the people in the interviews. They all must look at him and think, "He's just a nerdy teenager. He's harmless." Then he has them sharing their most intimate secrets with him so that he can telecast them for all the world to see.

No two ways about it, he's not altogether an uninteresting bloke.

[sue hindmarsh]

Pye wrote:

Sue is good at pointing out problems, but void of the visionary thinking/acting needed to address them. You all should be used to that by now. This is a victim-view of cause and effect, rather than a conscious participator in same. That's what happens when you think the human being has no role in its own agency, has no-self with which to direct that role.

Some people do think for themselves, but as Diebert points out, to be able to do so "they first have to grow some principles, some real conscience". Those principles and conscience grow from correctly defining what things are. The more correct the definitions, the closer your principles and conscience reflect the truth. Until that’s the case, some, or all action maintains the lies and falsehoods, and fosters new ones.

I want real change. I’m not interested in just patching up the world. I leave that to the politicians, charities, the UN, organisations like Amnesty International, Greenpeace, and the Médecins Sans Frontières. For real change to occur, the "visionary thinking/acting needed to address" the suffering of the world is to expose the core of that suffering. But as Dan pointed out, most people are "stuck in the mud". They know what they like; and like what they know. They're content to put up with periods of suffering as long as they also have periods of happiness. They laughingly see themselves as conscious participators in lives they know nothing about!

[Jason]

Prostitutes are human

That's why Louis was there at the brothel.

Louis was arguably at the brothel because he is a "whore" too. He uses his body and mind, puts himself in dangerous situations, for the almighty dollar. You think he would have done any of that if he didn't think he'd be paid for it? You think he would have acted the same way he did if he didn't have the expectation of being paid for it?

To show that the girls and women working as prostitutes all had personality illnesses that made them vulnerable to being in that situation. He was interested to see how others (the brothel owners, the staff, the clients, and over-all, how society) treated these vulnerable humans.

The vast majority of humans are vulnerable and ill. The vast majority of humans do the work they do because they are vulnerable and ill in various ways. Anyone not doing exactly what they want is settling for less because they are vulnerable. Who would choose to clean toilets for a job if they didn't have the vulnerability that comes with lacking an education, say? The average "respectable" businessman is desperate, ill and vulnerable too as I'm sure you'd agree.

It's too easy to approach taboo work like prostitution as some deeply different thing. It pains me that the focus is on them because it just once again tends to reinforce the idea that sex like this is inherently damaging and degrading.

Don't be fooled, Louis definitely goes in with various personal and "professional", conscious and unconscious agendas, and they play themselves out quite obviously in every show of his that I've seen.

Louis has some definite ideas about life. He's able to express them and not be bashed up because he looks and sounds like a big kid. Just one look at that mop of dark hair, those glasses, that skinny overly tall body, and hearing that slightly nasally English accent - who really could take him seriously?! And that's exactly how he's able to get that close to the people in the interviews. They all must look at him and think, "He's just a nerdy teenager. He's harmless." Then he has them sharing their most intimate secrets with him so that he can telecast them for all the world to see.

No two ways about it, he's not altogether an uninteresting bloke.

He's obviously very self-conscious, controlled and manipulative in his approach. He intentionally and habitually projects the false image that he is ignorant, innocent, coy and harmless.

[sue hindmarsh]

Jason,

You’re right about Louis. He uses people like the prostitutes do to get what he wants. But there is something that sets him slightly apart from the average pleasure addicted wanker. For though he is an adult, he still has a bit of that childhood sensibility that all people and things are in some way interesting. It’s kept that horrible adult glibness that the majority of adults have from completely permeating his personality. It comes through in his approach to the issues that he is researching. Like when he said to the prostitute that she was being racist saying that Asians have small penises. That's a very strange thing to say to a person who's ability to discern is obviously critically impaired (she's a prostitute!), and who’s life’s work of sucking thousands of men’s penises places her at the very bottom end of society, and thereby making her "unequal" to nearly everyone else. To ask her to make a judgment about an issue of equality seems highly insensitive. But I don’t believe he is being insensitive. I think he believes the best about people (like young children do) and treats them accordingly. It must sometimes have an effect on the people he interviews. I suspect that a few would come away feeling somewhat ruffled. I know that when those things happen in his interviews, I’m forced to stop and take stock of what just happened. For a TV show - that’s pretty unusual. That's why I always record them.

[sue hindmarsh]

Jason wrote:

It's too easy to approach taboo work like prostitution as some deeply different thing. It pains me that the focus is on them because it just once again tends to reinforce the idea that sex like this is inherently damaging and degrading.

You’re correct. All sex is “inherently damaging and degrading” because of its relationship with the emotions. Just thinking about someone as desirable creates horrific violence and further social decay.

[Jason]

Jason,

You’re right about Louis. He uses people like the prostitutes do to get what he wants. But there is something that sets him slightly apart from the average pleasure addicted wanker. For though he is an adult, he still has a bit of that childhood sensibility that all people and things are in some way interesting. It’s kept that horrible adult glibness that the majority of adults have from completely permeating his personality. It comes through in his approach to the issues that he is researching. Like when he said to the prostitute that she was being racist saying that Asians have small penises. That's a very strange thing to say to a person who's ability to discern is obviously critically impaired (she's a prostitute!),

Unbelievable. Your discernment is obviously critically impaired in this area. Believe it or not prostitutes can be knowledgeable, insightful, intelligent, thoughtful and reflective people.

and who’s life’s work of sucking thousands of men’s penises places her at the very bottom end of society, and thereby making her "unequal" to nearly everyone else.

Maybe that'd give them particular insight into matters of equality and inequality. Tell me, can you, by chance, think of anyone else in the immediate vicinity whose life's work places them at or near the very bottom end of the mainstream social hierarchy? Would it be insensitive to ask them about matters of equality and inequality?

To ask her to make a judgment about an issue of equality seems highly insensitive. But I don’t believe he is being insensitive. I think he believes the best about people (like young children do) and treats them accordingly.

Perhaps he just doesn't make crazy and unfair pre-judgements about prostitutes like you do. Prostitutes are people too. I feel I have to keep pointing this out to y'all - they are people. You need to stop making caricatures out of them, it's intellectually lazy and undeveloped.

It must sometimes have an effect on the people he interviews. I suspect that a few would come away feeling somewhat ruffled. I know that when those things happen in his interviews, I’m forced to stop and take stock of what just happened. For a TV show - that’s pretty unusual. That's why I always record them.

I think I might share some of Louis' characteristics, maybe I should get a camera crew to follow me around.

[Jason]

Maybe I misread what you wrote. Do those comments that I found offensive/flawed represent your personal thoughts on these issues? Or were they meant to represent the "horrible adult glibness" that you see in others(which may not reflect your personal views)?

[sue hindmarsh]

Yes Jason, I do think that for someone to become a prostitute, their discernment has to be critically impaired. I’ll add that I also think marrying, or lusting after someone, are also examples of critically impaired discernment. And though I haven't seen any evidence of Louis agreeing with me about the latter (he’s in a relationship), I know he’d agree with me that for a person to take up prostitution, they first have to have a mental impairment. For how could he not! No child ever dreams of becoming a prostitute. Neither do they dream of becoming a serial killer. Growing up with nothing but illness, they too become ill, and search out niches in the ill society that raised them.

But Louis would agree with your observation that the women at the brothel were "knowledgeable, insightful, intelligent, thoughtful and reflective people". Because, like I said in a prior post, Louis is mostly an ordinary adult. He’s as you said, and as I agreed - a whore. This means that the need to be consistent hardly ever, if at all, enters into his evaluations of people. And that spark of his that I mentioned doesn’t appear to be making much of an impact on his reasoning ability. He’s nearly forty, and even though he’s slightly more interesting than the average person, too much of his thinking is far too average to ever expect anything of any significance from him.

[Alex Jacob]

Hi Jason, we were already having this conversation a month ago but you never kept up with it. I have NO sex-phobias, my brother, but if you like getting fucked in the ass that's cool with me, but as you know I am 'opposed' to prostitution, a culture of irresponsible sexuality, or more accurately a culture that takes sex out of the context of relationship and relatedness (and affection, etc). I believe that all human values, especially these sorts of values, are taught and learned and that we have to be careful what we expose ourselves to, what we start to un-learn, and also be a ware of underlying dysfunction that will incline us to 'perversions' and excesses in sexual expression. I completely understand that I have no power (and no interest) to convince anyone else of my values and decisions, nevertheless I think I could make a very good expository case to defend what I think, which is all I was and am trying to do. There is a reason why the sexual appetite is focalized, and why there are 'controls' applied to it, and why these values are connected to our 'spirituality'. The unfettering of sexuality, I submit, is sort of abstractly desirable, and defensible, but it turns out that we humans seem to need cultural brakes, and ethical controls on the way we engage in sex. That has been my observation as I see sexual license play out in the culture. I know this is not a very popular opinion, and goes against the popular appetite, but it is what I think.