Cowards

[Nick]

The statement: "Politicians lie about their records and they continue to lie again even when shown a video tape of their lies. They have no respect for us. They think we only care about the Britney's and Paris's of the world. They think if they continue to say their lies over and over, we'll believe them." written by Bob Poole in this article made me think about how dense this guy must be to think that people actually do realize how badly they are being taken advantage of but "choose" not to do anything about it. Obviously if the majority of the people knew, or cared about the way their lives are being directed by a relative hand full of people they wouldn't let politicians get away with it. So yes, Bob Poole, people do only care about the Britney's and Paris's of the world, so stop blaming the leaders instead of the sheeple that empower them. This guy's basically just making a villain out of politicians so he can have something to write about that makes people feel like they have to battle something outside of themselves instead of looking within.

[Loki]

What, are you saying politicians are not villains?

[Nick]

I'm saying that idiot politicians exist because of the idiot masses.

[Loki]

I don't think that's true.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I think that the majority of the people do know that we are being lied to and taken advantage of. One problem is that no one knows a quick and effective way to fix the problem. The related problems are that most people don't have either the time or the patience to go about fixing things no matter how long it takes, and those who have dedicated their lives to fixing the problems are still working on them.

This monster wasn't grown overnight. To kill the monster without killing the people in its jaws is taking a bit of doing.

[Jason]

made me think about how dense this guy must be to think that people actually do realize how badly they are being taken advantage of but "choose" not to do anything about it. Obviously if the majority of the people knew, or cared about the way their lives are being directed by a relative hand full of people they wouldn't let politicians get away with it.

So how exactly is your life being directed, and how exactly are you being taken advantage of? And how are you trying to stop politicians getting away with it?

[Carl G]

made me think about how dense this guy must be to think that people actually do realize how badly they are being taken advantage of but "choose" not to do anything about it. Obviously if the majority of the people knew, or cared about the way their lives are being directed by a relative hand full of people they wouldn't let politicians get away with it.

So how exactly is your life being directed, and how exactly are you being taken advantage of? And how are you trying to stop politicians getting away with it?

Cultural control and personal programming is a vast subject. Personal deprogramming and counter programming is equally so. Are you suggesting that most of humanity is not effectively livestock? And obviously the relative handful of people to which Nick refers is not comprised of all politicians. But government is the sanctioning arm for what is going on. It is the lawmaker and ultimate enforcer for the agenda.

[Jason]

made me think about how dense this guy must be to think that people actually do realize how badly they are being taken advantage of but "choose" not to do anything about it. Obviously if the majority of the people knew, or cared about the way their lives are being directed by a relative hand full of people they wouldn't let politicians get away with it.

So how exactly is your life being directed, and how exactly are you being taken advantage of? And how are you trying to stop politicians getting away with it?

Cultural control and personal programming is a vast subject.

Absolutely, and it extends far far beyond government. I'd say it's part and parcel of human life on just about all levels. Control, deceit, manipulation and domination between people is the norm. I question those who would point to any "hand full of people" who are supposedly doing the directing. The politician isn't necessarily controlling, lying, manipulating or dominating on a daily basis any fundamentally differently than the average housewife or salaryman or family member does. We are them, they are us.

The politicians have been programmed and controlled themselves, they are as much a product of the system as anyone. Maybe that is one reason why people are willing to forgive and put up with the bullshit that politicians continually spin - would they do any differently themselves given the same position and circumstances?

Maybe I am in fact putting forward a perspective that is very similar to Nick's.

Personal deprogramming and counter programming is equally so. Are you suggesting that most of humanity is not effectively livestock?

No, I'm not suggesting that. But I'd also caution against underestimating the average person. Elizabeth made some good points that relate to this.

And obviously the relative handful of people to which Nick refers is not comprised of all politicians. But government is the sanctioning arm for what is going on. It is the lawmaker and ultimate enforcer for the agenda.

The politicians aren't the ones who will throw you in jail, overrun your country or put the gun to your head. The politicians arent the only ones who will support - in an infinite number of ways, those who will throw you in jail or overrun your country or put the gun to your head. Anytime anyone pays taxes, does business with, supplies with food or advice or help, or engages in any transaction and transfer of any power with anyone they are effectively helping the interests of others.

Just when I pay for my groceries that money is going to people who cannot possibly use that power that I have transferred to them in ways that I agree with. And I'm not just talking about the megacorps and CEOs of the supermarket - I'm also talking about the checkout chicks, the trolley boys, those on the lowest rungs. No doubt, for example, somewhere along the line, part of my money and power transfer will end up buying bullets and bombs for the government who will use them in some unknown future time and place to kill people who I don't know and quite possibly would not want killed.

I also ask these question of Nick to make him think about and respond in a more pragmatic way(which might seem amusing given some of what I've written above.) It's easy to build up idealogical and imagined enemies, and to infuse them with powers and intentions to a degree that makes one lose a grip on reality - but what is the real situation on the ground for him and his life? He's throwing around very general ideas about control and directing from above, but how does that actually manifest, if it does, within his own personal experiences and daily life? Similarly how has he personally attempted, in the real world, to stop the things hes spoken about from occurring.

[Nick]

made me think about how dense this guy must be to think that people actually do realize how badly they are being taken advantage of but "choose" not to do anything about it. Obviously if the majority of the people knew, or cared about the way their lives are being directed by a relative hand full of people they wouldn't let politicians get away with it.

So how exactly is your life being directed, and how exactly are you being taken advantage of? And how are you trying to stop politicians getting away with it?

You know that's not an honest question, and if you have read anything I have written on this forum you should understand my point.

[Nick]

I think that the majority of the people do know that we are being lied to and taken advantage of. One problem is that no one knows a quick and effective way to fix the problem. The related problems are that most people don't have either the time or the patience to go about fixing things no matter how long it takes, and those who have dedicated their lives to fixing the problems are still working on them.

This monster wasn't grown overnight. To kill the monster without killing the people in its jaws is taking a bit of doing.

Whether they "think" they are being taken advantage of doesn't really matter. It's the way they passively support the system that oppresses them that matters.

[Jason]

made me think about how dense this guy must be to think that people actually do realize how badly they are being taken advantage of but "choose" not to do anything about it. Obviously if the majority of the people knew, or cared about the way their lives are being directed by a relative hand full of people they wouldn't let politicians get away with it.

So how exactly is your life being directed, and how exactly are you being taken advantage of? And how are you trying to stop politicians getting away with it?

You know that's not an honest question, and if you have read anything I have written on this forum you should understand my point.

I don't know about dishonest. Maybe I'm twisting things a bit to add a little more interest and challenge. I still think they're valid questions on their own. I assume you read what I wrote to Carl? That fleshed out the intent of my questions. Perhaps the problem is that I can't recall anything of what you've written on politics - I'm not that interested in the subject, I don't usually pay attention to those posts.

[Blair]

A coward is one who has not guts.

I have guts, cowardice.

[Nick]

I don't know about dishonest. Maybe I'm twisting things a bit to add a little more interest and challenge. I still think they're valid questions on their own. I assume you read what I wrote to Carl? That fleshed out the intent of my questions. Perhaps the problem is that I can't recall anything of what you've written on politics - I'm not that interested in the subject, I don't usually pay attention to those posts.

Like Carl alluded to, my post wasn't meant to be specifically about politics, but about humanity's passive support and acceptance of a system (not just government) that enslaves them, in relation to the article I put a link to.

[Jason]

Whatever dude. Fuck. Just answer the damn questions or don't. Fucken hell.

[Nick]

I thought maybe you might want to reword your questions after the clarification in my last post because they seemed a little misguided, but I guess not.

But to answer your questions, I, and others, are taken advantage of anytime we are forced to support a system that we don't agree with for any reason. What I'm doing to "stop the system" is non participation and using whatever ambition I have to speak truth instead of competing within the system.

Basically, if everyone were like me, the system would self destruct because nobody would have enough ambition to compete and accomplish anything of real value to the system. And as you can see, most people are content enough to lead lives that do in fact support the system, placing the blame for their enslavement squarly on their shoulders, which is why I wrote a critique of that article I found, as it implies that the majority of the people don't support the system which enslaves them.

[Leyla Shen]

It's easy to build up idealogical and imagined enemies,

And that's exactly what happens. We have religious groups, ethnolinguistic groups, nation-states, theocracies, democratic republics, monarchies, all idealised and ready to be pitted against or allied with any number of other groups arbitrarily, ideologically, like cancerous cells dividing and multiplying.

...and to infuse them with powers and intentions to a degree that makes one lose a grip on reality -

But they do have these things, Jason. It's called war. War, of course, isn't a reality within Australia's borders.

Marx called it the contradiction between civil (bourgeois) society (private interest) and human life. Concrete freedom manifests for bourgeois society as the state. It doesn't manifest in an individual's daily life, but is abstracted into the state much like God is an anthropomorphism of one's own humanity. Thus, only bourgeois--that is, again, civil--societies (rather than human ones) wield the greatest military power always in their own private interests.

[Loki]

Ok, I agree with Nick.

[Ryan Sepulvado]

Government blows. We should take after the monkeys!.. no... the muskrats! Their species' live; they must have some system that affectively ensures that. Oddly, less intelligent creatures are not so fond of government. Oddly.

Who says humans are intelligent anyway? They're probably lying. Those guys that say that. The women, too. Fragment.
It's not as though we evolved over bunches of years and created government to maintain stability as our increasing population requires a system that leads to peaceful coexistence, or else the weak who are also integrated into society can not survive amongst strong competitors.

ANARCHY! ANARCHY! ANARCHY!

You're hanging on my tree! Die!
I am stronger, you are weaker, so you die!
Oh, we can't just let the strong and capable survive, says the crippled fellow (who obviously speaks English).
Agreed! says the crippled crowd.
Well, I do fear the strength and superiority of that guy, say the able. Perhaps we should congregate.

Yay! Everyone wins!




FUCK! NOT ENOUGH FOOD! NOT ENOUGH WATER! TOO MANY BABIES! DISEEEEASE!

400 more years, I estimate, presuming I don't see to that span being shortened.
Though I prefer to not measure time relative to human existence. Then.

[Leyla Shen]

Oi, bugger off!

[Ryan Sepulvado]

We should exchange colloquialisms some time. I'd enjoy that.

[Leyla Shen]

It seems the ball is squarely in your court, then. No?

Personally, I'd appreciate a less dramatic explication of your point. Preferably reduced to a few coherent lines.

[Ryan Sepulvado]

I'm from Texas. I should know plenty, but I never use them!

hm... I'll research and then we'll go at it. <-- is that one? nah, not quite.

[Jason]

Marx called it the contradiction between civil (bourgeois) society (private interest) and human life. Concrete freedom manifests for bourgeois society as the state. It doesn't manifest in an individual's daily life, but is abstracted into the state much like God is an anthropomorphism of one's own humanity. Thus, only bourgeois--that is, again, civil--societies (rather than human ones) wield the greatest military power always in their own private interests.

I'm not sure I really understand any of that.

[Leyla Shen]

Concrete freedom manifests for bourgeois society as the state. It doesn't manifest in an individual's daily life, but is abstracted into the state…

It’s a matter of definitions. I’m sure if you tried a few on, you’d have been able to make something out of it! Nevertheless, private interest is, of course, about competition. The state abstractly (or, philosophically) expresses but directly, concretely, enforces the unity of the nation and of an abstract rather than concrete “we, the people.”

It’s so absolutely essential to understand what follows before one gets a full and complete understanding of the above (and Marx, period):

Inasmuch as philosophy as will turns toward the world of appearances, the [philosophical] system is reduced to an abstract totality and thus becomes one side of the world confronted by another side. Its relation to the world is a reflexive relation. Caught up in the drive to realise itself it comes into tension with everything else. Its inner self-sufficiency and rounded completeness is destroyed. What was an inner light becomes a consuming flame, turned outward. We thus arrive at the consequence that the world’s becoming philosophical is at the same time philosophy’s becoming worldly, that the realisation of philosophy is at the same time its loss, that what it struggles against outside is its own inner defect, that it is precisely in this struggle that it falls into the defects which it fights in its opponents, and that it can transcend these defects only by falling victim to them. That which opposes philosophy and that which philosophy struggles against is always the same thing as philosophy, only with the factors reversed.

Can you make anything out of it, or do you want me to do all the work for you? :-[ <—That's my moustache. Actually, since I'm Turkish, it should probably look more like this: :-]

[tek0]

"Similarly how has he personally attempted, in the real world, to stop the things hes spoken about from occurring."



This is where good people fail in "helping" humanity in general.

In todays day and age if you even attempt to dent the system whether violently or intellectually you may find yourself renditioned or worse.

I do not believe it is fair to call the people of this world cowards for passively resisting the thugish behavior of the world leaders whoever they may be.

After all water boarding and being poked in the bum by agents with broomsticks is not my idea of a beautiful death.