Necessary character qualities to mature in any field

[Ryan Rudolph]

Here is a running list that you can add to for more accuracy:

1. The ability to absorb the work and training from the greats before you or presently among you, and admit when ones own ideas, methods and skills are incorrect.
2. Discipline, perseverance, calm, patience, focused commitment, inquisitiveness, and a suspension of immediate egotistical desires for personal achievement.
3. The desire to work towards being the best, while maintaining a sense of humility and politeness.
4. The desire to discover what is true based on how things work, rather than how the ego wished things were.
5. The desire to want to serve humanity by making the world better - meaning a more rational, efficient, beautiful and just world.

Moreover, I think this is a fairly positive mantra for anyone with the interest of pursuing any sort of goal, whether it be enlightenment, or some empirical or practical interest.

[kissaki]

I agree with points 1, 2, 4. I reject 3 and 5 because of the following reasons:

3.) If I do anything excellently, I do it for myself and not for others. If I do indeed remain truthful to myself then what does recognition or agreement from others matter? It matters nothing. In fact, I argue that not being humble and polite about what you have to say is that much more powerful because then you really see if your ideas are actually worth a damn and not just accepted because of your ability to play nice.

5.) The desire to make the world better and more beautiful and just for the sake of others is foolish. That's because such a thing requires you to be at the mercy of others and what they think such things mean. You might as well quit this bullshit right now, don a nun outfit, and call yourself mother Teresa and be the cute little symbolic play-thing of the world. Or just become a politician. I think any individual who dares to manifest such things in his own and away from the herd definitions is bound to clash with his surroundings.

Maturation is bullshit, unless you want to become an unspirited robot that is accepted by all the other unspirited robots. What's the alternative? To become a spirited robot of course! Maturation means I've gained the respect of my peers and that they allow me to take part in their lame and uncreative mature games of society: marriage, fatherhood, workforce. Alternatively, I recognize and accept the nature of reality and take responsibility for my own programming and so now I create my own games, which seem like raw chaos to most.

The sun is the ultimate enlightened entity in our local region. It serves everyone, humanity and non-humanity alike. It shines just for the sake of shining and cares not whether its energy is made use of efficiently or non-efficiently. It cares not whether its photons and sub-atomic particles are used for the betterment of a thoughtful human or whether they radiate out into space forever. This is the spirit of enlightenment.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Kissaki,

5.) The desire to make the world better and more beautiful and just for the sake of others is foolish.

To serve humanity is to serve yourself. You are an extension of others, others are merely a reflection of the self, so you are serving your higher self by serving others.

If I do anything excellently, I do it for myself and not for others

Yes, and by serving oneself, one is serving others at the same time.

Maturation is bullshit, unless you want to become an unspirited robot that is accepted by all the other unspirited robots. What's the alternative? To become a spirited robot of course! Maturation means I've gained the respect of my peers and that they allow me to take part in their lame and uncreative mature games of society: marriage, fatherhood, workforce. Alternatively, I recognize and accept the nature of reality and take responsibility for my own programming and so now I create my own games, which seem like raw chaos to most..

In my opinion, maturity means the ability to reject mainstream values, but continue living in the world of mainstream values without hatred and contempt.

[kissaki]

5.) The desire to make the world better and more beautiful and just for the sake of others is foolish.

To serve humanity is to serve yourself. You are an extension of others, others are merely a reflection of the self, so you are serving your higher self by serving others.

The sun serves humanity more than any human ever has and yet it cares not for such concepts. I am not saying that what you state is false, only that such a statement is easily interpreted as diarrhea by an undiscerning mind. Truly being in the service of man does not imply respect and love from your peers. In fact, such things seem to be more of an impedance, given the current and past state of human affairs.

Maturation is bullshit, unless you want to become an unspirited robot that is accepted by all the other unspirited robots. What's the alternative? To become a spirited robot of course! Maturation means I've gained the respect of my peers and that they allow me to take part in their lame and uncreative mature games of society: marriage, fatherhood, workforce. Alternatively, I recognize and accept the nature of reality and take responsibility for my own programming and so now I create my own games, which seem like raw chaos to most..

In my opinion, maturity means the ability to reject mainstream values, but continue living in the world of mainstream values without hatred and contempt.

Continue living without hate and contempt? Without rejecting and making those rejections visible to others? Again, your statement has the possibility to be interpreted foolishly by an undiscerning mind. One can have hatred and contempt for fools in the practical sense without having hatred and contempt for humanity or the universe in the ultimate sense.

If you truly mean to communicate what you say, why do you choose to phrase it so nicely even though you are aware the implications are anything but nice? You may be creating more delusion than dispelling it by framing your statements so positively.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

6. Good judgment, a sense of fairness, and the application thereof.

[brokenhead]

Kissaki has a point. You can mature in any field, or in no field at all. Maturing doesn't require any field, but if you are in one, Ryan's program for maturing is not addressing success in that field.

It's a pain in the ass, but if you don't blow your own horn, you cannot expect anybody else to do it. The best you can hope for is some kind of harmony when everyone is doing it at the same time. To extend the analogy, when crunch time comes, the band member whom no one ever hears is the first to go. The real art is not being obnoxious about it.

I say it's a pain in the ass because it is. But I have been counseled by supervisors in my life that I was not doing enough of the "I did this and that" thing. They said they knew what I was doing, but their superiors needed to hear more of it to justify raises and promotions.

Office politics suck. Or more honestly and to the point, I suck at office politics.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I have been counseled by supervisors in my life that I was not doing enough of the "I did this and that" thing. They said they knew what I was doing, but their superiors needed to hear more of it to justify raises and promotions.

Office politics suck.

Yep, office politics suck. Don't forget to add the following reality to your above experience: Do a great job. Get noticed for doing a great job and watch your supervisors get nervous about their jobs. Watch your work either get sabotaged by your supervisor, or watch your supervisor take all the credit. Lose your job.

[Carl G]

One can spread manure in any field -- er, I mean become mature -- by playing the game and squeaky wheeling to get greased? I don't know about that! It may produce mature IRA funds at retirement, and may help mature those cancer malignancies due to the stress of kowtowing, but...

On the other hand, if there are any band members who, as brokenhead puts it, aren't being heard, well, they deserve to be shit-canned; if you can't toot your horn well enough to contribute to the overall corporate sound you shouldn't be there. By toot your horn I mean play your damn instrument, not hot dog to the boss. In the office politics I've experienced, it is usually best to not stick out, although a little well-timed self-promotion regularly is also important.

On the more esoteric morality list of Ryan's, well, those are fine attributes for anyone to strive to live by. Who could dispute it.

[Shahrazad]

I agree with number 3 if by being the best he doesn't mean striving to be better than others. I do my best and if I compete at all, I do it against myself, not others. Often other people's standards are lower than mine.

The other points seem ok.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

I'm not altogether sure if any but number two lists character qualities; I'd be generous saying that both one and three imply humility, which is the same quality. And, most of the qualities in number two are simply explications of discipline. So, we're left with discipline and humility, which implies that only a Stoic can possibly master his work. I can't agree with that.

That leaves the two options that are least like character qualities, four and five. Humaneness does not seem like a value that is needed for all fields, as one can certainly achieve mastery in many skills without any consideration of social implications. So only number four remains, which is valuing truth rather than falsity. It's easy to agree with that claim: a truthful mind is better at thinking about, and hence mastering, skills.

So of that entire list, only one, "the desire to discover what is true based on how things work, rather than how the ego wished things were", is necessary to mature in any field, although that is at best only derivative of other qualities, and not a character quality itself.

[Carl G]

And, we've forgotten the most important character quality of all, good genes.

[brokenhead]

I have been counseled by supervisors in my life that I was not doing enough of the "I did this and that" thing. They said they knew what I was doing, but their superiors needed to hear more of it to justify raises and promotions.

Office politics suck.

Yep, office politics suck. Don't forget to add the following reality to your above experience: Do a great job. Get noticed for doing a great job and watch your supervisors get nervous about their jobs. Watch your work either get sabotaged by your supervisor, or watch your supervisor take all the credit. Lose your job.

I don't need to add it to my experience because I have had it. I have had my work sabotaged by a supervisor because when I first began working with the company, I declined to "lunch" with her. I saw erase marke on my computations that I hadn't made, and the subsequent data written over it "corrected" in the margin. She was substituting mistakes and correcting them, which got me called onto the carpet. She had been there the longest, so there was no point in making it a her-word-against-mine scenario. So I picked the day that I knew would be the most stressful for her, and I went out to lunch and never returned. This would have been a permanent job in securities trading. The thought of this horrible woman occupying my future was literally giving me chest pains.

Walking off a job like that is not something I am proud of, but I felt I had no choice. I have been in other temp positions where when shit happens, as it always will, the temp guy somehow gets the blame because everybody else knows they are stuck with the place and they figure, what the hell, he is temporary anyway. So it's not like I don't know that work means you have to eat shit sometimes, but I'll be fucked if I'm going to say it tastes good.

[brokenhead]

I agree with number 3 if by being the best he doesn't mean striving to be better than others. I do my best and if I compete at all, I do it against myself, not others. Often other people's standards are lower than mine.

The other points seem ok.

I hear you on this one, Shah, but it's not alawys so easy a call. I had one gig with a state agency where everyone just seemed to stand around talking all day. I was aware of it, and I didn't want to do that. Call me old-fashiioned. But is that striving to be better than others? It was more like not letting myself be as unproductive as others. And I did get one of those "You're making the rest of us look bad." WTF? No, you are making yourself look bad. I am not trying to "look" any particular way. I am trying to do my job.

Oh, and the kicker of this job? It was a temp position which because of my work ethic, I completed two months before the job's alloted lifetime expired, so I was let go early, three weeks before Christmas, with suddenly no disposable cash for presents.

I even point-blank brought this up to my person at the temp agency and asked, "Since you are the employer, you ended up making less money on this contract than you would have had I worked more slowly. Yet I know the client was pleased. So you tell me: in the future, should I work more slowly?"

It's fascinating to watch somebody squirm over a yes or no question like that. The answer is clear - they would have wanted me to work as slowly as I could get away with, but obviously this is nothing they can say out loud or put into their "mission statement." I am supposed to somehow know this, and what's more, take the fall for it if I were deemed to be working too slowly.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Kissaki,

One can have hatred and contempt for fools in the practical sense without having hatred and contempt for humanity or the universe in the ultimate sense.

I think it is more mature to disapprove of foolish behavior without hatred or contempt. Hatred is a sort of ulcer of the soul, which distorts the quality of ones thoughts. For instance: any thought that is linked to hatred is usually violent in nature...

Sharz,

I do my best and if I compete at all, I do it against myself, not others.

Why wouldn’t you encourage people to live up to the standards you have set for yourself? In my opinion, there is nothing bad about judgment and encouraging people to be better than they presently are.

Trevor,

So, we're left with discipline and humility, which implies that only a Stoic can possibly master his work. I can't agree with that.

I do agree that someone can mature in their field without stoic qualities, but to be great or to be above the rest, or cutting edge requires a stoic mind combined with social awareness. For instance: Suppose you have a carpenter that has mastered his trade, but he works 6 days a week, taking any job for any price that comes his way, but his has mastered the technique well. However, I would only consider him a mediocre carpenter.

A great carpenter would be someone who educated himself on the latest energy efficient methods of creating minimalist living structures, and perhaps has a select number of skilled tradesmen that he uses to develop a small number of projects a year that are considered environmentally and technologically advanced. Or suppose you have a mediocre scientist that researches boring and inconsequential topics his entire life because he has no vision for the future of humanity, so he just number crunches all day, studies the mating behavior of rats or something, and lives a very dull and boring career. Moreover, a social awareness of what is wrong leads to a long-term vision, and a long-term vision leads to interest, which in return leads to action.

This is how great creative things happen in any empirical or pragmatic pursuit. And in ones philosophical life, it happens similar. An understanding of truth leads to interest in a long-term vision or change for humanity psychologically, which leads to communication, debate, influence, and action.

Brokenhead,

This would have been a permanent job in securities trading.

What company were you working for?

[Carl G]

A great carpenter would be someone who educated himself on the latest energy efficient methods of creating minimalist living structures, and perhaps has a select number of skilled tradesmen that he uses to develop a small number of projects a year that are considered environmentally and technologically advanced.

First, what you describe is not a carpenter but a contractor.

Second, his interest and education in the things you describe may make him great in your eyes, but those criteria are subjective. By another measure his ability to make money may make him great, and for another it may be his level of technical skill in the traditional craftsmanship area. Your idealized contractor may not be able to stay in business where he is located offering only the most energy efficient and technologically advanced structures. How great is he then?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Carl,

By another measure his ability to make money may make him great, and for another it may be his level of technical skill in the traditional craftsmanship area. Your idealized contractor may not be able to stay in business where he is located offering only the most energy efficient and technologically advanced structures. How great is he then?

Greatness in a pragmatic field should not be measured by financial success alone; that is very mediocre, it should be measured by setting an example to others as to what is elite behavior. It should be saying to humanity: “this work sets an example as to the direction we should be moving in as a species” that is greatness. Not the blind pursuit of material gain.

And even though that is a subjective statement, it is absolutely true. Moreover, even if a contractor goes out of business due to unpopularity, the long term goal for his work is for others to stumble upon his creations, examine them, and be inspired, thus causing them to continue carrying the torch, allowing for a stronger light to shine into the future.

[Shahrazad]

Broken,

I hear you on this one, Shah, but it's not alawys so easy a call. I had one gig with a state agency where everyone just seemed to stand around talking all day. I was aware of it, and I didn't want to do that. Call me old-fashioned. But is that striving to be better than others? It was more like not letting myself be as unproductive as others. And I did get one of those "You're making the rest of us look bad." WTF? No, you are making yourself look bad. I am not trying to "look" any particular way. I am trying to do my job.

I don’t get it, broken. In what way are you disagreeing with me? It is an easy call. You don’t give a fuck what the others are doing; you are doing what you are compelled to do. It would not take much to do better than people who do nothing all day, so if all you do is try to be better than them, you’re not doing your best.

Ryan,

Sher: I do my best and if I compete at all, I do it against myself, not others.

Ryan: Why wouldn’t you encourage people to live up to the standards you have set for yourself? In my opinion, there is nothing bad about judgment and encouraging people to be better than they presently are.

That is exactly what I was saying. I want to encourage people to get better and better at what they do by competing against themselves (for example, improving their own past scores). There is no need to focus on beating others.

-

[Carl G]

Carl,

By another measure his ability to make money may make him great, and for another it may be his level of technical skill in the traditional craftsmanship area. Your idealized contractor may not be able to stay in business where he is located offering only the most energy efficient and technologically advanced structures. How great is he then?

Greatness in a pragmatic field should not be measured by financial success alone; that is very mediocre,

I agree. What I meant was that some people may measure greatness differently than others.

it should be measured

"Should" meaning 'in your opinion'. Fair enough.

by setting an example to others as to what is elite behavior. It should be saying to humanity: “this work sets an example as to the direction we should be moving in as a species” that is greatness.

I happen to agree, and that is actually what I personally have always striven to do. I do think this idea of greatness is tricky, simply because it tends to stem from subjectivity. For example, the elite behavior should be saying to humanity, the direction we should be moving in; shoulds, when applied to others, are problematic, as there is no objective standard that I know of by which this can be measured, i.e. According to whom? WHO SAYS?

I think it is better to say which direction I should be -- wish to be -- going in.

Not the blind pursuit of material gain.

And even though that is a subjective statement, it is absolutely true.

Sounds contradictory, but OKAY!

Moreover, even if a contractor goes out of business due to unpopularity, the long term goal for his work is for others to stumble upon his creations, examine them, and be inspired, thus causing them to continue carrying the torch, allowing for a stronger light to shine into the future.

Some time back, I as a builder used to exceed the local standards regularly. Not only was my work not appreciated, the lack of profits starved me out of the business. I doubt future builders will visit the rural enclave in which I toiled, to investigate the cutting edge work and say, "this is how we should construct things!"

[brokenhead]

I don’t get it, broken. In what way are you disagreeing with me? It is an easy call. You don’t give a fuck what the others are doing; you are doing what you are compelled to do. It would not take much to do better than people who do nothing all day, so if all you do is try to be better than them, you’re not doing your best.

You are right, we aren't disagreeing. The point is that I was not trying to outdo my coworkers, but some of them still saw it that way. They didn't get that I was focusing on the task and not on them. By "not an easy call," I meant that while I was doing what I was compelled to do, I realized I wasn't necessarily making friends or fitting in with the "team." But on that job at least, it was because the team wasn't accomplishing much.

[Shahrazad]

Broken,

I agree that by doing your best you are not going to be well liked by those who are not doing the same, because you are setting the bar high. But it is not your fault that they are mediocre.