To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

[turbatio]

*sigh*, I know you're probably right. And there are times when I'm able to not only "forsee" that this will be correct, but also so much so that I can "rest" in it, and no longer have the desire to really "confirm" it. But it never lasts. I don't think I'll be able to get passed this without actually going through with it.

On the other hand, participating in sex might now give you a female on your arms that depends upon you in some way: financially, emotionally, physically, whatever. Now you can proceed to live for two, or maybe more if she births a child and/or if she insists on making her family a part of yours, as most women tend to do. Now when the universe inevitably fails you, an entire entourage of individuals have the option of placing the blame squarely on your shoulders. Congratulations, now is when the real fucking begins.

I truly lol'ed at that one.

[brokenhead]

To get to the point, I personally think that I too am reasonably intelligent. When I made my initial post I was in an altered state of mind. I've been very confused lately. Maybe I was so excited during my drunken experience because it felt like I had stumbled onto a simple explanation for all of my ills. I still think there is something to it. We are living organisms. Why should we be any different than any other species - of whom it seems that life is composed of the following 1. Get food. 2. Reproduce.

And 3. Don't get killed.

Surely you see the difference between "fucking everything in sight" and "reproducing." Because "reproducing" means 1. Get food for the offspring and 2. Don't let the offspring get killed. That seems to happen in other species as well.

Males are always aware that there is this one-eighty in life, and it seems the faster you run from it, the more you are going to feel it if you fall into it. There's a big difference between don't get killed and I'd take a bullet for my son. They are not mutually exclusive, of course, but they certainly aren't the same.

[Carl G]

Haha, kissaki, I got a laugh out of that. Lot of truth in what you wrote, though, and pretty well put. There are exceptions, of course, many of them, but yeah, that's the general routine for a lot of folks.

[turbatio]

OR, alternatively you can just secure sexual relief in some way that is simply meant to relieve a desire that is at root not yours, one that you simply cannot rationally take any pride or shame in. Sex is not to your credit, it's to the universe's. It's not personal, just business. You understand.

Yeah, my therapist is trying to get me to see this. Though, she isn't very good at it.

[maestro]

What you say sounds right and wise. Maybe the best one can hope for is just to be able to recognize when what one thinks is true is not lining up with what one observes. And maybe it's unrealistic to to think that this "tinkering" will ever not be required. How much tinkering do you have to do at this stage in your life?

Initially it requires a lot of painful tinkering, as closely grasped and false beliefs are discarded, eventually as the mind relinquishes its central position and realizes how little it knows and matters clarity happens automatically. Clarity occurs in flashes of insight, which have little to do with deliberate thinking or mulling over.

I still think there is something to it. We are living organisms. Why should we be any different than any other species - of whom it seems that life is composed of the following 1. Get food. 2. Reproduce.

It is a bit simplistic, but as a stable pattern of the universe, which the living being is, most of its energy is spent in these tasks. We are no different, and perhaps in a worse condition as we create a lot of delusional ideas myths taboos and psychosis around the reproductive drive. Survival and reproduction lead to the drive for power which runs the insane world. Everybody is frightened insecure and confused.

There is the hypothesis of enlightenment. A knowledge that gives near perfect insight into the world. That leads to dissolution of these destructive complexes. That the mind is capable of this feat and it would become healthy and whole again.

[Alex Jacob]

Turbatio wrote:

"Well, I'm not sure there is much point in discussing this (it seemed a little self serving on your part), but for the record my parents were fairly intelligent people. Certainly above average. My Father has a University degree. My sister is a lawyer. There were a few years (most of my formative years) where my parents were very much into fundamentalist type Christianity. This had an incredible impact on my life."

I don't mean to offend you, expose you or put you in a position of defending yourself. You are very right that what I wrote was self-serving---it serves me in defining what are my opinions about what is happening in 'our modernity'. I pursue certain angles, trying to follow things back to their beginnings. For a host of different reasons, some 'positive' and some 'negative', people in Western cultures cut a rope connecting them to their own traditions, their own formative matrix. There is a line in the I-Ching "The Ting is broken. The prince's meal is spilled. Misfortune." (Fourth line Hexagram No 50). Something has been lost that should not have been lost. It is not just our own selves who have 'dropped the Ting' (mishandled 'sacred' cultural heritage, in a manner of speaking) but our own parents and previous generations. The whole culture, it seems, is derelict, decadent, thoughtless. This is the modern state of things, the exceptions are extraordinary.

'A degree' means absolutely nothing, yet because we suppose it means something, must mean something, we assume we have more or less arrived at a desirable platform. So, we have a plebeian society that imagines it is educated when---let us be realistic and truthful---they are semi-literate peasants with big heads. Most of the lawyers I know are vile human specimens, so that is no indication of anything noble at all. (There are many lawyers in my family by the way).

I don't know exactly what you mean by 'fundamentalist Christianity' but, in comparison to expressions of Christianity that are elevated, noble, eclectic and tolerant, fundamentalist Christians are a kind of under-species of dog. This is sort of what I am getting at: plebeian, common, vulgar culture that invades sacred grounds and despoils them. Better to have 1) become drunks and drug addicts or 2) blown their brains out.

I have no doubt that it had a profound impact on you---I mean, if you say so. It is safe to say that one thing or the other has fucked-up so many of us, and that we are recovering. But what I see, and what I shout about, is how we have become alienated from what is really valuable in our own traditions such that if asked we couldn't even name them!

This has been a part of my criticism of QRS (Quinn, Rowden, Solway, the ones who run this theatre) and one of the reasons I find them shallow, though they lay sophisticated discourses over their shallowness and emptiness. There are still huge peices that are simply absent.

"I'm not sure this is the best way to seek help."

This is not a place to 'seek help', friend. Here, is a group of people who are not at all unanimous in opinion and where discussions are hashed out. This has been going on for months, years. One seeks help from a professional, a good therapist, a disinterested person, a true friend, but not from a forum full of strangers, each of whom has their own agenda, and whom you don't know from Adam. If you did want someone to help you with a specific issue, you'd be better off communicating by private messages.

"But it never lasts. I don't think I'll be able to get passed this without actually going through with it."

Blessed are they who get past without having to go through. Let he who has ears, hear.

[Alex Jacob]

"Happiness is like coke---something you get as a by-product in the process of making something else."

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you mad."

---Aldous Huxley

[skipair]

This has been a part of my criticism of QRS (Quinn, Rowden, Solway, the ones who run this theatre) and one of the reasons I find them shallow, though they lay sophisticated discourses over their shallowness and emptiness. There are still huge peices that are simply absent.

I have to agree with this, and see it as a matter of choice whether or not having "missing pieces" is better than the warm wettness of our childhood. Though the interesting part for me is that it seems no matter how deliciously wonderful a thing may be, I also get pleasure in bathing it in the light of reality, undermining its perceived value, destroying it. It is a different kind of pleasure that can be thought of as creating missing pieces, though once they are gone they seem to go mostly unmissed.

This is not a place to 'seek help', friend.

That really all depends, I think. Frankly my experience with professional psychologists (and I've had lots due to my parent's past distress on my not completing homework, and probably just my individuality in general) is that they have not an inch, not even a millimeter more value as a helper than the "plebian commoner". Because that is precisely what they are. At the very best, they can shut up and listen. As a general rule.

If you (impersonal) really need to vent, call the operator. It's free.

One other thing. Assuming that it's not just a dangling carrot mirage designed to trick people into thinking, and there actually is a finish line of intellectual development we call 'enlightenment', the only people who should be answering the topic question with finality is guess who. So why am I seeing otherwise?

[Jason]

I think the key thing in all of this is my near TOTAL lack of sexual experience with women. There have been girls that I have liked, and there have been girls that have liked me (never did the two match up unfortuanetly). But I have never had sex, and have not even so much as kissed a girl. Once I left high school, these limited "dealings" stopped as I now pretty much keep to myself.

It seems that renunciation and celibacy are pretty popular around here - I'm one of the few other young males on this forum who also wants to fuck everything in sight. Obviously I know little about you and your situation Turbatio, but at this point my advice would be for you to just have sex.

If it's on your mind a lot and you are constantly yearning for it, it seems reasonable that you should at least know and actually experience what you're yearning for. You may find that it's quite different to what you thought it was going be. It's possible that the experience could lead to some sort of psychological/emotional/philosophical progression for you.

On the other hand, you having been a fundie Christian and who knows what else, I don't know what sort of potential fallout could come from you having sex for sex's sake. Is there going to be guilt? Shame? A hit to the ego or self-esteem?

Just make sure that you don't end up with a kid or an STD. Wear a condom, and be careful what you do - you don't want a single act of sex to fuck up the rest of your life. It's unfortunate that sex can be so problematic for many of us horny males, there's a tightly controlled supply and artificial scarcity. Where do you live Turbatio? Are prostitutes an option?

[Kelly Jones]

Just adding to Jason's reasonable advice...

The desire for sex is insatiable, because it's psychological, not physical. You (generic) won't satiate lust by giving into it, once you have a taste for it.

Lust only fades when you don't need what sex gives. Meaning, when you stop needing and idealising sex.

Many men believe that young girls with tight pussies are a reward, that motivates them to slave away at some job, or even to exist. So they are happy to idealise sex, because it helps them feel like a decent and acceptable human being amongst other human beings.

Sexual desire is the greatest source of coarse dullness of the mind, in regards to philosophy.

[Nick]

It seems that renunciation and celibacy are pretty popular around here

Where did you get that impression? I don't recall a single person on here ever saying they have chosen celibacy. I think you are confusing the fact that certain members of this forum aren't as attached to women as the average man, which naturally leads to less sexual encounters, with the idea of making an actual decision to no longer have sex.

I'm one of the few other young males on this forum who also wants to fuck everything in sight. Obviously I know little about you and your situation Turbatio, but at this point my advice would be for you to just have sex.

I'm a relatively young male who also has a substantial sexual appetite, but at the same time I don't find myself motivated enough by it to actually go through the process of courting a female, e.g. impressing/entertaining them. It just seems like too much work for something that might not happen regardless of how well things go with the woman. Based on my observations, the males I know who get to sleep with women on a regular basis spend a great deal of their time thinking about how to get women into bed, on top of actually going out and courting women. It essentially takes up the majority of their thought processes and physical efforts. Anyone who is successful at courting women does so because it is what they have dedicated their life to, and one can be certain they have no potential for philosophy.

[mansman]

T:
If your still pure person that is first of all amazing, and honorable, and show a discipline that the rest of the world loses at. This is one area where YOU are the current winner, and soon as get the girlfriend your special status is OVER. You may feel like failure long time, consider.

Still all these years you fighting urges and worked very hard to stay pure your body and maybe mind, but if you thinking it is hard not fucking now just wait until you become stained like everyone else- then not fucking will seem impossible!

However if you MUST experience the womans body and have your way with her (since u deserve it, dont you?) never look for relationship never let mother lead you its time to be an un-attached (emotionally) fucking machine! Maybe just 1 or 2 screew will be enough, maybe you need enjoy women bodies (or men or ?) for 1 whole year, whatever it is always practice safe sex with the girls who DONT stay loyal. Those are the girls to find, fuck the girl your friend or sister is sleeping with, get ok if possible. Realize that sex with the woman ALWaYS has a price, no exception, you will PAY the more you have the more you will pay, an lucky you if payment is only cash!

Clean professional can be excellent choice too. Never tell anyone this. Never be ashamed for your urge and indulgence. Remember if the people and society in your life was really fine beings then only could you have a chance to escape this feminine magnatism.


BUT, if you dont care to get wise and reach Nirvana (said to be best prize in world) just ignore all of the above.

:) welcome
forgive my writing, not grew up in american english speaking home.

[mansman]

N, Yes, Jehu is a celibate one, just ask he tell you.
But the Australians are wankers just to relieve stress from being force by government to vote or be punished.

It seems that renunciation and celibacy are pretty popular around here

Where did you get that impression? I don't recall a single person on here ever saying they have chosen celibacy. I think you are confusing the fact that certain members of this forum aren't as attached to women as the average man, which naturally leads to less sexual encounters,

[Shahrazad]

Jason,

It's unfortunate that sex can be so problematic for many of us horny males, there's a tightly controlled supply and artificial scarcity.

It's funny you would say that, since sex is a lot harder for females than it is for males. There are a few females who find getting lots of unattached sex easy, but those are a small minority.

[Kelly Jones]

Shahrazad, the video Taking sex differences seriously helps greatly to show why that is.

[Kelly Jones]

For those interested, an article entitled "Dialogue: Celibacy and the Perfect Buddha", from Genius News, Issue 6 June 2001.

By the way, the Genius News link at the top of the screen is broken.

[Shahrazad]

Kelly,

Shahrazad, the video Taking sex differences seriously helps greatly to show why that is.

Awesome speech. I agree with him on everything he said, and even though he didn't say anything that I didn't already know, I enjoyed the show.

I can't help but wonder: should I be worried that this video is in Kevin's site? Are some people going to take this kind of knowledge and argue that women are inherently inferior to men?

[turbatio]

Alex,

I don't mean to offend you, expose you or put you in a position of defending yourself. You are very right that what I wrote was self-serving---it serves me in defining what are my opinions about what is happening in 'our modernity'. I pursue certain angles, trying to follow things back to their beginnings. For a host of different reasons, some 'positive' and some 'negative', people in Western cultures cut a rope connecting them to their own traditions, their own formative matrix. There is a line in the I-Ching "The Ting is broken. The prince's meal is spilled. Misfortune." (Fourth line Hexagram No 50). Something has been lost that should not have been lost. It is not just our own selves who have 'dropped the Ting' (mishandled 'sacred' cultural heritage, in a manner of speaking) but our own parents and previous generations. The whole culture, it seems, is derelict, decadent, thoughtless. This is the modern state of things, the exceptions are extraordinary.

I see, and if you're saying what I think you're saying, I can't see how anyone couldn't agree.

'A degree' means absolutely nothing, yet because we suppose it means something, must mean something, we assume we have more or less arrived at a desirable platform. So, we have a plebeian society that imagines it is educated when---let us be realistic and truthful---they are semi-literate peasants with big heads. Most of the lawyers I know are vile human specimens, so that is no indication of anything noble at all. (There are many lawyers in my family by the way).

I agree with this.

Last night I had the insight that I have an intense need to be seen as smart or clever in the eyes of others. I'm thinking that maybe because I feel so inadequate as far as "sex" goes (sexual prowess, feelings of not being a "real man"), my own "self image" is now built in large part on the idea that "I am smart". I often have the urge to tell people that "my sister is a lawyer" because I feel it reflects well on me. I'm thinking maybe I should be looking into psychology instead of philosophy right now. I think with a little work in that regard, I could get a better sense of what is going on with me - sort of an intial "mental sorting", before I go any further with philosophy, if I still want to do that.

Lawyers vile? Lol, yes. I agree that that is often the case.

This is not a place to 'seek help', friend. Here, is a group of people who are not at all unanimous in opinion and where discussions are hashed out. This has been going on for months, years. One seeks help from a professional, a good therapist, a disinterested person, a true friend, but not from a forum full of strangers, each of whom has their own agenda, and whom you don't know from Adam. If you did want someone to help you with a specific issue, you'd be better off communicating by private messages.

Yes. I'm realizing this now.



Jason,

A concern I have is that were I to go to a prostitute, I would like it so much and become even hornier than I am now. I can't afford (money) that. I may be even worse off than I am now. The ideal thing would be to get a girlfriend of whom I could have as much sex with as I wanted. But that is obviously easier said than done.

As far as the option of prostitutes goes - yes, I could with a little effort go this route, and I might. But I'm thinking it might not be a wise thing to do.



Kelly,

The desire for sex is insatiable, because it's psychological, not physical. You (generic) won't satiate lust by giving into it, once you have a taste for it.

Yeah, I can definetly see that happening. That's why I think maybe a prostitute is a bad option.



mansman,

If your still pure person that is first of all amazing, and honorable, and show a discipline that the rest of the world loses at.

All these qualities have nothing to do with this. Were the option given to me, I would have had sex looooooooong ago.



Shahrazad,

It's funny you would say that, since sex is a lot harder for females than it is for males. There are a few females who find getting lots of unattached sex easy, but those are a small minority.

Really? Really?


Kelly,

Shahrazad, the video Taking sex differences seriously helps greatly to show why that is.

Will you tell me? Or are you going to make me watch that video?

[Kelly Jones]

Do you have a slow internet connection?

[kissaki]

turbatio,

I don't think you actually wish to solve your dilemma. I suspect you are holding out because it creates meaning and the hope that when/if you decide to have sex it will be with a female who proves everything you've observed in others regarding sex wrong. You're not sure your interested in enlightenment anymore because your great enlightenment is to come in the form of a female.

Your refraining further feeds the illusion. Kill the Buddha, fuck a female, pop the zit.

[Shahrazad]

Turbatio,

Shah: It's funny you would say that, since sex is a lot harder for females than it is for males. There are a few females who find getting lots of unattached sex easy, but those are a small minority.

Turbatio: Really? Really?

I am serious as a heart attack. I've been a female a long time, so I would know.

Kelly: Shahrazad, the video Taking sex differences seriously helps greatly to show why that is.

Turbatio: Will you tell me? Or are you going to make me watch that video?

I’ll tell you. A woman’s fantasy is to be able to have sex for the sake of sex. She wants to have sex with a stranger, go home, forget the stranger exists, and in a couple of weeks (or months, depending on her libido), repeat the same experience with another stranger, or maybe even the same stranger. But it will never work that way, ever. This is because as soon as she has sex with a man, he is not a stranger any more -- they have been intimate, and her brain has released oxytocin, which makes her feel great, and makes her associate this feeling with the man she is with at the time. She cannot escape this chemical trap, except of course by avoiding sex.

If the man she has casual sex with is not compatible with her, and she does not enjoy the act, then there will be no oxytocin, and therefore no emotional attachment. However, this is no consolation to her, as she just wasted her time and will never want to see him again.

In spite of my explanation, why not watch the video?

-

[Alex Jacob]

Turbation,

Everyone here is working their angles, trying to make a case for their way of seeing things, making recommendations left and right, and all this with a tone of authority. It is a pretty interesting place, not very common at all, and I think it is getting better too. It is worthwhile to stick around and see what you think about all of it. But, I would not recommend taking anyone too seriously, especially those who offer opinions about 'enlightenment'. First, no one who writes here is, in fact, 'enlightened', and you can easily uncover whole invisible armies of neurosis and conflict in what they write. That 'by the way'.

Like Dante making a decent into Hell, you might think of contracting with a Guide, a Beatrice! Someone needs to explain the different features you'll see here, the hellish configurations, the elaborate contortions of the inmates as they live out their eternity of punishment, and as they tell you the story of their lives, someone to keep you from being pulled into their story and devoured by the complexes that devour them.

Carry a little sop of bread with you always, something to satisfy the dog-creature who guards the boat-crossing.
__________________________________________________________

"I'm thinking that maybe because I feel so inadequate as far as "sex" goes (sexual prowess, feelings of not being a "real man"), my own "self image" is now built in large part on the idea that "I am smart".

No one here, from what I have seen to date, will ever recommend what is the simplest thing in the whole world: just to find some woman that you really like and develop a relationship with her. Some of the fellows here have taken the 'I am smart' neurotic defense to great lengths, and have more or less sworn-off sentiments. From what I see, it looks a lot like pure fear, with a good deal of existential angst.

[Carl G]

the simplest thing in the whole world: just to find some woman that you really like and develop a relationship with her.

Hahaha

[Shahrazad]

Alex,

No one here, from what I have seen to date, will ever recommend what is the simplest thing in the whole world: just to find some woman that you really like and develop a relationship with her.

Simplest thing in the whole world? Are you insane?

-

[Alex Jacob]

When you are in your twenties---I assume Turbatio is in his twenties---it is the absolutely easiest thing to find women to hang-out with and to do all the things that people do together. I did it dozens of times!

"F.8 and be there..." [A photographic term, f.8 is the f-stop on a camera lens, the meaning is just be there, make the rounds, be ready.]

To create a long-enduring relationship with one person that will last one's whole life---well, that is another story.

Keep in mind that some on this thread are recommending paying prostitutes! I am recommending what is infinitely more simple and more rewarding.