To QSR: Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

[turbatio]

Also, does it take effort to stay enlightened?

[Dan Rowden]

What do you mean by "peace"?

[turbatio]

Contentment and an understanding that "this" is it. An assurance that all the work is over and never again will you feel completely lost and confused.

I used to be a fundie christian and I thought that I felt this way - but I found myself always having to have these sort of re-affirmation sessions where I told myself that "this is the truth", and afterwards, I would be "good to go" until the next crisis of faith came, or I felt confused/unsure. I suppose I had to do this because my experiences were telling me that "this was NOT it", i.e. something wasn't right.

Do you and others who claim to have become enlightened experience anything like this? Or, once you arrive at where it is you have arrived, is it really hard to "fall out" of this space.

[Kevin Solway]

Also, does it take effort to stay enlightened?

So long as you aren't absolutely perfect, there is always effort.

You might come to understand truths that you are absolutely certain are true, such as the fact that all things are entirely caused to happen by things that have happened previously. But knowing that this is true, and living in accordance with this knowledge, are two different things. The first part isn't overly difficult, but the latter can require quite a deal of effort. The first part is theory, the latter is practice.

[turbatio]

You might come to understand truths that you are absolutely certain are true, such as the fact that all things are entirely caused to happen by things that have happened previously. But knowing that this is true, and living in accordance with this knowledge, are two different things. The first part isn't overly difficult, but the latter can require quite a deal of effort. The first part is theory, the latter is practice.

I see.


Are you glad that you have put in the effort to be where you are today? Or are there times when you think that you would have been better off had you not set off on this journey to begin with - i.e. was the amount of time and toil it took to get where you are - was it worth it? Or do you sometimes wish you had spent that time doing something else?

[DHodges]

Forget about enlightenment.

Seek after truth - not for what you will get out of it - but simply because it is truth. It's the right thing to do. It may not bring you happiness. There are no guarantees. But the right thing to do will always be the right thing to do.

Are you glad that you have put in the effort to be where you are today? Or are there times when you think that you would have been better off had you not set off on this journey to begin with - i.e. was the amount of time and toil it took to get where you are - was it worth it? Or do you sometimes wish you had spent that time doing something else?

Do you have something better to do? What is it?

[Kevin Solway]

are there times when you think that you would have been better off had you not set off on this journey to begin with - i.e. was the amount of time and toil it took to get where you are - was it worth it? Or do you sometimes wish you had spent that time doing something else?

To me, there's nothing more important than knowing the truth.

[turbatio]

Do you have something better to do? What is it?

I like this. A question I feel I can actually answer and be reasonably sure I can give a truthful response.

The "other option" is to keep pursuing the things that I have been pursuing my whole life. 1. Sex. 2. (I think, a distant number two) The desire to have other's look at me and say "That guy is something. How I envy him. I will give him adoration.

I'd like to give a little background as to what has led me to start this thread.

Last night, I got drunk. I found myself fairly suddenly being reasonably sure that all of the "issues", all of my problems in life, and actually "life" itself (for all of us), boiled down to "fucking and eating". It suddenly hit me really hard that if I did not ingest enough "fuel", I would die. I briefly felt a close identity to the fruit fly that was buzzing around my sink full of dirty dishes. Then, it also seemed incredibly real to me that like every other living thing in the universe, my only real "mission" was to "fuck everything in sight". All of my issues seemed to lead back to this fact. I felt an incredible kinship with every other male sexed living thing in nature. Then, it occured to me that our "sex" (gender) was incredibly important as far as our place on this planet goes. I am not a "person" first. I am a "man" first. This in turn reminded of the some of the themes of this site. Today (all sober...well, up till about an hour ago), I read through Quinn's "Woman: An exposition....", and these issues are starting to ring true again.

So, I come before you all, confused, yet apathetic. It's like I've been confused and without any "base program" for so long that a part of me no longer cares about anything. But I think there is another part of me that knows that this current state I find myself in will not last forever, and this part has already begun to seek out new theories that will be there for me should I find myself back in a more determined/enthusiastic state of mind.

Anyway, I think my cup may finally be empty and I may finally be ready to fill it up with something new. But I also sometimes just want to blow my brains out (ooooh, so real!), so who knows.

To me, there's nothing more important than knowing the truth.

I see.

[Alex Jacob]

A perfect new recruit for the QRS! If there were angels they'd sing Hosannas. A fundy Christian with no understanding of what a relationship to God means whose only major impetus is sex! Not love, not relationship, but sex. Devoid of a higher sense or purpose, with not even a sprarkle of it, he can easily be brought around to take up the QRS doctrines.

Swear off the drink and swear off the pussy---the Infinite awaits...

[Tomas]

.



-Alex Jacob-
A perfect new recruit for the QRS!

-tomas-
Aw, come on Alex. David, Dan, Kevin are three "completely different" entities..




-Alex-
If there were angels they'd sing Hosannas.

-tomas-
Much to your chagrin, there are angels. (see the book of Jude)




-Alex-
A fundy Christian with no understanding of what a relationship to God means whose only major impetus is sex!

-tomas-
I'll take this apart.

'A fundie Christian' is nothing more than a sanitized name for an organized Pagan religion, which is backed up with the 501c3 tax-exempt power of The State.

Did your parents give money to their favorite Temple? Did they take the tax-deduction allowed by the State. Did their Rabbi (a glorifed IRS agent) sign the IRS forum to keep an account of charitable giving (and a limited liability assessment) of what they orate on being permissable in the grand scheme of it all, meaning God did this, that and every thing inbetween?




-Alex-
Not love, not relationship, but sex.

-tomas-
It's:

1. Sex

2. Love

3. Friendship

3(b). Support structure

It's 3(b), that is where your QRS-rant falls apart.

I see this in Dan's limited, reserved response.

Kevin's more "open" response.

David will have a completely different view than Kevin, Dan.




-Alex-
Devoid of a higher sense or purpose, with not even a sprarkle of it, he can easily be brought around to take up the QRS doctrines.

-tomas-
Turbatio has the advantage over us as having lived the good life of 'living America to its fullest'. The Promised Land IS America..




-Alex-
---the Infinite awaits...

-tomas-
---the Infinite awaits?, What else is there (besides these pixels on the screen) that you have to offer, Alex?


Peace Up



Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason

VietNam veteran - 1971





.

[maestro]

Glad to see this discussion Turbatio. All these issues are close to my heart.

Is There Peace in Enlightenment?

Depends on how you define enlightenment. Sufficient skill in self-observation and control can bring peace as explained below:
Peace is disturbed by self perpetuating habits. Chains of thoughts/feelings which reinforce each other. An unpleasant chain reaction of the body-mind. In general the body/mind complex runs on habits, which are all chain reactions.

If you develop habits of observation and control these destructive habits at their weakest link the chain reaction will not occur. Eventually, the control will become part of the chain and the body/mind complex will arrange itself in a new configuration where the peace is never disturbed.

Also, does it take effort to stay enlightened?

Initially when you fight against the destructive habits it takes effort, when the whole complex is in a new configuration there is no effort.

Forget about enlightenment. Seek after truth - not for what you will get out of it - but simply because it is truth. It's the right thing to do. It may not bring you happiness. There are no guarantees. But the right thing to do will always be the right thing to do.

I would rephrase this as follows (even though Hodges may not have meant this). Your mind models the world. Truth value of the model, rather than being binary true/false is the closeness of the model to the behavior of the world. Diligently observe the internal and external (self and world). Whatever your model of the world/self, is it internally consistent and matches observations? If not then why not? Try to find a better model? Increasing truthfulness of the model of the world leads to more peace as you discover lots of false beliefs that engender destructive habits.

Are you glad that you have put in the effort to be where you are today? Or are there times when you think that you would have been better off had you not set off on this journey to begin with - i.e. was the amount of time and toil it took to get where you are - was it worth it? Or do you sometimes wish you had spent that time doing something else?

It does not take effort, which could be spent elsewhere. Self observation/ model refining can run concurrent to any other activity.

Contentment and an understanding that "this" is it. An assurance that all the work is over and never again will you feel completely lost and confused.

Even better is to lose the need to feel this security. This desire is related to anxiety and ego.

I used to be a fundie christian and I thought that I felt this way - but I found myself always having to have these sort of re-affirmation sessions where I told myself that "this is the truth", and afterwards, I would be "good to go" until the next crisis of faith came, or I felt confused/unsure.

This happened because your world model was incorrect and instead of doing a sane re-examination of your model you violently reaffirmed it.

You might come to understand truths that you are absolutely certain are true, such as the fact that all things are entirely caused to happen by things that have happened previously. But knowing that this is true, and living in accordance with this knowledge, are two different things. The first part isn't overly difficult, but the latter can require quite a deal of effort. The first part is theory, the latter is practice.

Myself I am a believer in matching of models to appearance, and thus a continuous spectrum of truth rather than 100% absolute certainty, which perhaps is an artifact of Aristotelian logic.

[Blair]

The short answer is no. No peace in enlightenment.

There are no shortcuts, but pursuing englightenment is the only thing you can do to make your life valid.

[Carl G]

The short answer is no. No peace in enlightenment.

There are no shortcuts, but pursuing englightenment is the only thing you can do to make your life valid.

The problematic word here is 'valid', which indicates 'meaning', which indicates subjectivity. In other words enlightenment is not the 'only' thing for any or every one; for someone it may be riding all of the world's great roller coasters. So, you are speaking only for yourself, and therefore instead of saying ''you" and "your" it would have been truthful to have written "I" and "my."

*unfurls umbrella for verbal abusive fallout from prince*

[Carl G]

turbatio wrote:

Last night, I got drunk. I found myself fairly suddenly being reasonably sure that all of the "issues", all of my problems in life, and actually "life" itself (for all of us), boiled down to "fucking and eating". It suddenly hit me really hard that if I did not ingest enough "fuel", I would die. I briefly felt a close identity to the fruit fly that was buzzing around my sink full of dirty dishes. Then, it also seemed incredibly real to me that like every other living thing in the universe, my only real "mission" was to "fuck everything in sight". All of my issues seemed to lead back to this fact. I felt an incredible kinship with every other male sexed living thing in nature. Then, it occured to me that our "sex" (gender) was incredibly important as far as our place on this planet goes. I am not a "person" first. I am a "man" first. This in turn reminded of the some of the themes of this site. Today (all sober...well, up till about an hour ago), I read through Quinn's "Woman: An exposition....", and these issues are starting to ring true again.

Seems to me that the revelation you experienced was of The Young Man's Curse, that of his bondage to his raging hormones. This is a significant self-observation, and can bear fruit if put into a useful context. By that I mean, for one, seeing that ""life" itself (for all of us), boiled down to "fucking and eating"" is only one part of the picture, not the ultimate truth. Or that maybe it is, for you. Are you more than an animal? This was a chance to ask yourself. Can you, will you ever, transcend the animal survival mode of thinking and being?

You sound as if you are a young man. Perhaps you will survive this difficult stage of a man's life, to be able to practice some detachment, to begin focus on what is inner and what is higher than the flesh.

[brokenhead]

I briefly felt a close identity to the fruit fly that was buzzing around my sink full of dirty dishes. Then, it also seemed incredibly real to me that like every other living thing in the universe, my only real "mission" was to "fuck everything in sight".

That poor fruitfly better be able to fly pretty fast...

[brokenhead]

You sound as if you are a young man. Perhaps you will survive this difficult stage of a man's life, to be able to practice some detachment, to begin focus on what is inner and what is higher than the flesh.

The late Earl Butz, former Secretary of Agriculture recommends these for happiness:
"Tight pussy, loose shoes, and a warm place to shit."

[Carl G]

You sound as if you are a young man. Perhaps you will survive this difficult stage of a man's life, to be able to practice some detachment, to begin focus on what is inner and what is higher than the flesh.

The late Earl Butz, former Secretary of Agriculture recommends these for happiness:
"Tight pussy, loose shoes, and a warm place to shit."

Who the fuck cares?

[Shahrazad]

prince,

There are no shortcuts, but pursuing englightenment is the only thing you can do to make your life valid.

Why? Because you say so? You're an idiot.

[Alex Jacob]

Carl, who every once in a while gets a wee bit grumpy, wrote:

"You sound as if you are a young man. Perhaps you will survive this difficult stage of a man's life, to be able to practice some detachment, to begin focus on what is inner and what is higher than the flesh."

Reminds me of something from La Rochefoucauld: We flatter ourselves that we have left our vices when in fact they have left us.

I don't want to treat Turbation too much like a lab-rat, but what I pick-up from what he has written is another sort of tragedy, the tragedy of a young person grown up in our modern environment of TeeVee, mass religion of the low-brow variety, parents that are likely complete, uneducated idiots who imparted very little of the 'higher' cultural values and treasures. In short, a sort of Beevus and Butthead bleak little dead-end world where in a very real sense the alternatives are self-medication or suicide. I am not at all joking though I try to write about it in a clever, cynical way. When we lose contact with the intellectual, spiritual, ethical, moral culture which has produced us, which used to be strong in even average middle class families; when we have lost contact with our own religious traditions, be it Judaism or Christianity (and other traditions too), and they seem to us like hammers that smash our heads, and we don't even recognize in them what is sublime, deeply beautiful and deeply relevant; we are like empty vessels that beg to be filled---with whatever comes along to fill it. We have been robbed, I submit, but the tragedy is if there is nothing left in the individual even to feel, through a kind of sympathy, a longing for those high and elevated things. That arises in the spiritually innocent, and it is a real shame that this 'spiritual innocence of youth' is lost, or destroyed, too soon in life.

I don't think we should underestimate the effect of 'porn-culture' and what these images and sensations do to youthful innocence that, I submit, should never approach the beginnings of sexuality through this kind of imagery.

It is frankly ugly that a young man---this young man or all young men---seem to have lost, if ever they had, a normal, desirable, youthful affective innocence toward girls.

[kissaki]

turbatio,

There is no peace and there is no rest in enlightenment. Think about it, you intuitively already know this is the case. The entire reason you ask this question is because you think there is some ultimate state where activity stops, where all the things in the world and your mind cease to disappear and reappear.

But what if enlightenment is knowing that such a state is impossible and fundamentally opposed to the nature of reality? What if enlightenment is knowing that there is always activity at every scale and that you are not separate from said activity, and so searching for this state of rest is actually a kind of delusional need? After all, how can what is composed of and surrounded in activity find rest anywhere or in any thing?

Your heart organ works tirelessly day and night regardless of whether you individually remain awake or sleep for rest. Likewise, enlightenment is to recognize the heart of the entire universe, and thus to be ejected from the comfort of conventional notions of rest and peace for all of time.

Recognition of cessation and creation as inseparable pairs is to stop deluded parsing of reality into samsara and nirvana, non-enlightenment and enlightenment. Every cell in your body must recognize this.

[kissaki]

Carl, who every once in a while gets a wee bit grumpy, wrote:

"You sound as if you are a young man. Perhaps you will survive this difficult stage of a man's life, to be able to practice some detachment, to begin focus on what is inner and what is higher than the flesh."

Reminds me of something from La Rochefoucauld: We flatter ourselves that we have left our vices when in fact they have left us.

I don't want to treat Turbation too much like a lab-rat, but what I pick-up from what he has written is another sort of tragedy, the tragedy of a young person grown up in our modern environment of TeeVee, mass religion of the low-brow variety, parents that are likely complete, uneducated idiots who imparted very little of the 'higher' cultural values and treasures. In short, a sort of Beevus and Butthead bleak little dead-end world where in a very real sense the alternatives are self-medication or suicide. I am not at all joking though I try to write about it in a clever, cynical way. When we lose contact with the intellectual, spiritual, ethical, moral culture which has produced us, which used to be strong in even average middle class families; when we have lost contact with our own religious traditions, be it Judaism or Christianity (and other traditions too), and they seem to us like hammers that smash our heads, and we don't even recognize in them what is sublime, deeply beautiful and deeply relevant; we are like empty vessels that beg to be filled---with whatever comes along to fill it. We have been robbed, I submit, but the tragedy is if there is nothing left in the individual even to feel, through a kind of sympathy, a longing for those high and elevated things. That arises in the spiritually innocent, and it is a real shame that this 'spiritual innocence of youth' is lost, or destroyed, too soon in life.

I don't think we should underestimate the effect of 'porn-culture' and what these images and sensations do to youthful innocence that, I submit, should never approach the beginnings of sexuality through this kind of imagery.

It is frankly ugly that a young man---this young man or all young men---seem to have lost, if ever they had, a normal, desirable, youthful affective innocence toward girls.

Porn has some positives. It allows a receptive and thoughtful man to understand that what females essentially have to offer is raw. Put another way, it is to recognize that all the great and wonderful presentations of female sexuality which you mentioned, society and moral culture, judiasm and christian, are but finely painted veils over this rawness of earth. The reason those who esteem society and all its values poo-poo on porn is because it can point out exactly this and destroy previously held illusions about women's roles in society. Furthermore, one might begin to realize that sexuality is re-programmable, and thus fundamentally outside the scope of all the boundaries imposed by institutions -- not good for our modern Pharisees.

To recognize the programmable nature of reality, not just sexuality, is to be given the keys to your own kingdom. Most individuals who are lucky to even get that far in recognition seem to jump right back into a system, method, or institution that is provided by another. It's simply easier to do that than to stand alone in reality. Jesus Christ is arguably the greatest example of such a societal crutch. He stands as a seemingly insurmountable Messiah in service to institutions. It's been over 2000 years, hasn't the man suffered enough for everyone's cowardice? Time to take the fucker down from the cross.

[Carl G]

Alex, who sometimes resides in South America, and who occasionally gets a tad pompous, wrote:

Reminds me of something from La Rochefoucauld: We flatter ourselves that we have left our vices when in fact they have left us.

Good one. Don't know if I agree, though.

[turbatio]

So many opinions. I can't keep up. I'm not sure this is the best way to seek help.


Maestro,

What you say sounds right and wise. Maybe the best one can hope for is just to be able to recognize when what one thinks is true is not lining up with what one observes. And maybe it's unrealistic to to think that this "tinkering" will ever not be required. How much tinkering do you have to do at this stage in your life?


Carl,

Seems to me that the revelation you experienced was of The Young Man's Curse, that of his bondage to his raging hormones. This is a significant self-observation, and can bear fruit if put into a useful context. By that I mean, for one, seeing that ""life" itself (for all of us), boiled down to "fucking and eating"" is only one part of the picture, not the ultimate truth. Or that maybe it is, for you. Are you more than an animal? This was a chance to ask yourself. Can you, will you ever, transcend the animal survival mode of thinking and being?

You sound as if you are a young man. Perhaps you will survive this difficult stage of a man's life, to be able to practice some detachment, to begin focus on what is inner and what is higher than the flesh.

Well yes, If I live to the average age of death, I'm somewhere near the end of the first third of my life. But truth be told in many ways, I am fairly inexperienced. Ever read Dostoyevsky's The Idiot? When I read it, I identified strongly with Myshkin - Inexperienced in some areas of life. And, after writing this post I think I'll be demonstrating that I share his tendency to reveal things about myself that other's would keep to themselves. I suppose the difference (and it is big) is that I DO feel a sense of embarressment when I talk about this stuff. I DO care what other's think, very very much so, most of the time.

I think the key thing in all of this is my near TOTAL lack of sexual experience with women. There have been girls that I have liked, and there have been girls that have liked me (never did the two match up unfortuanetly). But I have never had sex, and have not even so much as kissed a girl. Once I left high school, these limited "dealings" stopped as I now pretty much keep to myself.



Alex Jacob,

I don't want to treat Turbation too much like a lab-rat, but what I pick-up from what he has written is another sort of tragedy, the tragedy of a young person grown up in our modern environment of TeeVee, mass religion of the low-brow variety, parents that are likely complete, uneducated idiots who imparted very little of the 'higher' cultural values and treasures. In short, a sort of Beevus and Butthead bleak little dead-end world where in a very real sense the alternatives are self-medication or suicide.

Well, I'm not sure there is much point in discussing this (it seemed a little self serving on your part), but for the record my parents were fairly intelligent people. Certainly above average. My Father has a University degree. My sister is a lawyer. There were a few years (most of my formative years) where my parents were very much into fundamentalist type Christianity. This had an incredible impact on my life.


To get to the point, I personally think that I too am reasonably intelligent. When I made my initial post I was in an altered state of mind. I've been very confused lately. Maybe I was so excited during my drunken experience because it felt like I had stumbled onto a simple explanation for all of my ills. I still think there is something to it. We are living organisms. Why should we be any different than any other species - of whom it seems that life is composed of the following 1. Get food. 2. Reproduce.


Kissaki,

I'm not at all sure I even want to be "enlightened" anymore. I'm not sure I even care. I think maybe I just want to have sex.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

.


Swear off the pussy?, Well, David has a daughter (who's probly at that age where she is checking out the guys) so there goes Darwin...

---the Infinite awaits?, What else is there (besides these pixels on the screen) that you have to offer, Alex?


Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason

VietNam veteran - 1971





Peace Up




.

Actually David and Sue have a son. You actually thought that they would have kept it if it was a girl? Sue had a girl once and didn't get along with it, so she handed it over to the guy who wouldn't give up a Y chromosome for her.

As for peace in enlightenment - yes, when one is enlightened, one realizes that everything will be okay - and will know what "okay" really means.

[kissaki]

Kissaki,

I'm not at all sure I even want to be "enlightened" anymore. I'm not sure I even care. I think maybe I just want to have sex.

The sooner you do it, the sooner you'll be disappointed. It's the biggest non-secret ever. The worst part about having bought into society's great construction of sex, however unwillingly, is that you'll realize that it was the biggest nothing and that you were deceived. You'll realize that you essentially aren't any more privy to the nature of the universe solely due to participating in the act of sex.
On the other hand, participating in sex might now give you a female on your arms that depends upon you in some way: financially, emotionally, physically, whatever. Now you can proceed to live for two, or maybe more if she births a child and/or if she insists on making her family a part of yours, as most women tend to do. Now when the universe inevitably fails you, an entire entourage of individuals have the option of placing the blame squarely on your shoulders. Congratulations, now is when the real fucking begins.

OR, alternatively you can just secure sexual relief in some way that is simply meant to relieve a desire that is at root not yours, one that you simply cannot rationally take any pride or shame in. Sex is not to your credit, it's to the universe's. It's not personal, just business. You understand.