Life after death

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Tomas
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Re: Life after death

Post by Tomas »

Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
jufa wrote:The problem is you are changing the question I asked:
When is one not discoherent and inconsistent? And when is one logically secure when one is always expressing opinions not coherent and consistent with the collective whole of logic?
to what you want to deal with.
The questions which formed my reply were the answer. Which meant to say that the questions were to me the same. But you don't think so which means there's quite a big difference here with the definitions. Is it really worth digging into that any further? As you say: "never give power to anything a person believes...". And the source of your strength looks like muddy conversation! It takes two willing participants to create clarity in any communication so this will never happen here.
Whoa! This should make for interesting chit-chat ..
Don't run to your death
Pam Seeback
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Re: Life after death

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
movingalways: Please note that the Buddha uses the word 'escape' when he speaks of attaining to the Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated and Unformed. Many times I have spoken of final enlightenment or nibbana or heaven as the being the exit from the world of the born into the Unborn and have been told I am deluded.
No.
What's been said is that while appearance persists,
Reason is the gateway to deal with suffering.

While appearance persists,
don't discount, minimise, deny, negate Reason.
Dennis, allow me to repeat for what seems to be the hundredth time that I do not discount, minimize, deny or negate Reason while the appearance exists. Did you not read these words from the same post from which you drew the conclusion that I deny and negate Reason?
In relating Jesus' words to the words of the Buddha above, Jesus came to fulfill the law [of nature], not to destroy it, and in doing so, ascended, upon his death, into his second aspect of nibbana, the cessation of the idea of birth in his consciousness. Being that logic is of the world of the born, of nature, it is the same as saying Jesus came to fulfill the law of logic, not to destroy it, but rather, to finish it in his consciousness.
So, once again, I fully acknowledge, as I have always done, this it is by Reason that we come to the same conclusion as the Buddha when he said:
"Verily, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible" (Ud.VIII.3).
Clearly the above statement is a statement of the highest logic, of ultimate reasoning.

So you are right, while the appearance persists, logic is the way, as you say, to deal with suffering. But the Buddha didn't come to show us how to deal with suffering, he came to show us the way to end suffering. Which means once logic brings you to the realization that there is a way to escape the appearance, one has to begin walking the path of the escape, the way of holding fast to the wisdom of the Unborn.

Diebert spoke of irony in a previous post. It is ironic to me that many wisdom seekers acknowledge the suffering of rebirth into the appearance, but fight tooth and nail, the permanent ending of this very same suffering.
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Re: Life after death

Post by Dennis Mahar »

escape from
what do you take that to signify.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Life after death

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote: It is ironic to me that many wisdom seekers acknowledge the suffering of rebirth into the appearance, but fight tooth and nail, the permanent ending of this very same suffering.
Seeking permanency is the problem of rebirth in a nutshell. It's still not clear to me Pam, what you are seeking to end or are advertising to have ended. Because it's the very nature of delusion to assume beginnings and endings where they are definitely not. This is why it's interesting or should be interesting to question it without end.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Life after death

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:I was unable to locate the source of these phrases
Just some bloke spamming the lines on message boards as far as I can see. I do expect some seriousness when someone makes an effort to throw "the book" at me. Especially with Eastern philosophy phrasings which are often exactly worded and tuned by the original author. It's already a pain that translations have to be used creating such a freedom of reading into things. Although that can sometimes also save them!
"Verily, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible" (Ud.VIII.3).
Please note that the Buddha uses the word 'escape' when he speaks of attaining to the Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated and Unformed. Many times I have spoken of final enlightenment or nibbana or heaven as the being the exit from the world of the born into the Unborn and have been told I am deluded.
You have picked this part because of the word "escape". But this is not correct as the better and I believe more widely used translation is "emancipation" or perhaps "emergence". This is of course then way more in tune with the whole body of teachings regarding discerning and awareness. You notice things by contrast: A and the rest of the totality which is "not A" or the Un-A'ed.
the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - (App.: Nibbāna).
This is describing perhaps no-self. Also no-escape. But it's also not a Buddha quote or even an original source so it needs no further addressing. But it shows an interesting lack of discernment to feel the need to scrape these bits from the web. Don't you ever question the need to do this? What do you need to prove? Can you not say it better yourself?
Jesus said the eye is the lamp of the body and that your whole body will be full of light, not that your mind will be full of the light of knowledge. There is a clear distinction between the two aspects of wisdom, the first is heavenly, the latter is earthly.
There's no distinction here. This is all about the means by which one knows. A torch, a vision, an eye or an understanding. The beauty of real wisdom it that it doesn't address just one realm: it unifies them all. It also destroys the artificial and feeble distinctions you keep creating to justify some untruthful stand which cannot last for long.
Jesus came to fulfill the law [of nature], not to destroy it, and in doing so, ascended, upon his death, into his second aspect of nibbana, the cessation of the idea of birth in his consciousness. Being that logic is of the world of the born, of nature, it is the same as saying Jesus came to fulfill the law of logic, not to destroy it, but rather, to finish it in his consciousness.
All ideas form and dissolve again inside consciousness. All forms ideate and finish throughout consciousness. This is a present teaching, not a disappearing act of a past icon.
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Re: Life after death

Post by jufa »

Tomas wrote:
Diebert van Rhijn wrote:
jufa wrote:The problem is you are changing the question I asked:
When is one not discoherent and inconsistent? And when is one logically secure when one is always expressing opinions not coherent and consistent with the collective whole of logic?
to what you want to deal with.
The questions which formed my reply were the answer. Which meant to say that the questions were to me the same. But you don't think so which means there's quite a big difference here with the definitions. Is it really worth digging into that any further? As you say: "never give power to anything a person believes...". And the source of your strength looks like muddy conversation! It takes two willing participants to create clarity in any communication so this will never happen here.
Whoa! This should make for interesting chit-chat ..
Tomas, I'm going to ask you the same questions, which are two different questions
When is one not discoherent and inconsistent? And when is one logically secure when one is always expressing opinions not coherent and consistent with the collective whole of logic?
You babble, and say the question are one and the same by your definition. Yet in the muddy conversation you fail to bring a clear vision which will definitely cause the readers to say, I understand what Tomas is talking about. In other words you have failed to define there is no difference except your babbling on about
It takes two willing participants to create clarity in any communication so this will never happen here
This statement in and of itself needs to be buried, because I don't need your permission to think for myself.

Persuasion is the name of the game. Persuade me there is not difference in the combined questions I ask. Any claim which comes out of a persons mouth, should have the source of power of their beliefs to back them up.

If you are a willing participant, lets roll. If you are just running rhetoric, I don't look for you to define the no difference you talk about.

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - Jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com
Last edited by jufa on Wed Mar 14, 2012 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Pam Seeback
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Re: Life after death

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
escape from
what do you take that to signify.
To be free of all attachments so that the light body or truth body is realized. I am a long way off such an attainment, but practice makes perfect!
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Re: Life after death

Post by Pam Seeback »

More succinctly, to escape the suffering of birth, of relativism, is to realize omniscience.
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Re: Life after death

Post by Pam Seeback »

You have picked this part because of the word "escape".
Yes. It is a word that means 'final', a word that means "finished".
But this is not correct as the better and I believe more widely used translation is "emancipation" or perhaps "emergence".
I do not care about the more widely used translation. For me, to enter full Buddhahood or Christhood is to enter omniscience, and while omniscient, there is no emergence of thought or image or word present in your awareness. It is finished.
This is of course then way more in tune with the whole body of teachings regarding discerning and awareness. You notice things by contrast: A and the rest of the totality which is "not A" or the Un-A'ed.
Contrast belongs in the world of relativism and emergence. We are debating because of this contrasted world of relativism and emergence. But there is another world where contrast, relativism and emergence does not exist; God willing, I plan to be of and in that world one 'day'.
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Re: Life after death

Post by Dennis Mahar »

To be free of all attachments so that the light body or truth body is realized. I am a long way off such an attainment, but practice makes perfect!
Your argument appears to be:
In terms of having a Vision.

The use of 'conceptualising mind' for bringing a postulated benefit.
As distinct from the use of 'conceptualising mind' for entertainment or creating soap operas.

It's 'grokking' the nature of 'conceptualising mind' that stills it.
How it comes to know itself thoroughly.
How it knows itself as the mediator in all its suffering.
How it realises with astonishment the bullshit its been perpetrating for aeons.
It simply 'melts' in to peace.
Nothing matters!

Story is Story.
DonaldJ
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Re: Life after death

Post by DonaldJ »

Quoting: "By my calculations – a 50% possibility. Because we have no way of knowing what happens at death, and so there are only two possibilities – continuity or no continuity. It doesn’t get any simpler than that."


______________________________________


I sustained 7 over the line and back NDE's.. "continuity", only if you direct it all as you have practised for 20-years...
The only reason I survived those NDE's is that I spontaneously directed the whole thing each time the moment I realized I was inside death.. I rode those waves on my innocence and ingenuity..
Your thoughts, strengths, mind, loves, emotions, and goals, all go with you... The mind is the spirit's brain.. The soul is your cumulative memories.. It doesn't get simpler than that...
By my experiences, the reality of the afterlife is 101%...

"no-continuity" is accurate for about 6-billion of you..
You still don't have the first clue about realizing the afterlife, even after I've given it to you so clearly so much...
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David Quinn
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Re: Life after death

Post by David Quinn »

Most people aren't even alive to begin with, so I don't see how an afterlife will be of any use to them.

Is there death after death? That's a far more relevant question, I would have thought.

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Pam Seeback
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Re: Life after death

Post by Pam Seeback »

Dennis Mahar wrote:
To be free of all attachments so that the light body or truth body is realized. I am a long way off such an attainment, but practice makes perfect!
Your argument appears to be:
In terms of having a Vision.

The use of 'conceptualising mind' for bringing a postulated benefit.
As distinct from the use of 'conceptualising mind' for entertainment or creating soap operas.

It's 'grokking' the nature of 'conceptualising mind' that stills it.
How it comes to know itself thoroughly.
How it knows itself as the mediator in all its suffering.
How it realises with astonishment the bullshit its been perpetrating for aeons.
It simply 'melts' in to peace.
Nothing matters!

Story is Story.
If nothing mattered, compassion would be unnecessary. If nothing mattered, wisdom would unnecessary. If suffering did not matter, ending suffering would be unnecessary.

I am not speaking of a Vision that is conceptualized, please listen to my words before you respond. Be STILL and know I am God. Can one describe this stillness with a conceptualized vision? No. Can one say what needs to be done so that the movement between the opposites or contrasts of "it's all relative" can be finished in their consciousness? Yes. Jesus came to show the Way, the Buddha came to show the Way. Jesus spoke of loving the Spirit of God and one's neighbour with all one's heart and mind, the Buddha spoke of right view. Both these teachings keep the mind directed toward escape from duality and directed to the stillness of omniscience and its expansion in one's consciousness. These teachings are themselves a Story, as are all Words made flesh, but the difference between the Story of expansion into omniscience and the story of expansion into relativism is simple: the former ends suffering for good, [melting is finished] the latter perpetrates the turning wheel of the rising and falling of being in and out of suffering [melting, freezing, melting, freezing...].

One is either ready to completely die to their Story of relativism and be obedient to their Story of its death or they are not.
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Re: Life after death

Post by Pam Seeback »

David Quinn wrote:Most people aren't even alive to begin with, so I don't see how an afterlife will be of any use to them.

Is there death after death? That's a far more relevant question, I would have thought.

-
The only death that brings the end of suffering is the death of relativism.

To be conscious, to be alive to the death of relativism is to be conscious, to be alive to one's omniscience wherein a relative position cannot reside. To be alive to one's omniscience wherein a relative position cannot reside is to be conscious of one's continuing death of the relative position. This is why awareness of omniscience is Right View.

When one has expanded their Right View to the point where they can see relativism no where in their consciousness, final death has occurred and birth is no more.
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Re: Life after death

Post by Dennis Mahar »

Pam,

You've got a Story.

'One fine day if I practice a strategy I will hit the Jackpot.'

'The grass is greener over there.'

Conditional. Conditioned mind.

Using conceptual mind for a postulated benefit.

It's okay to have an empowering story.
Doesn't matter one way or the other.
Just know it's a story and is not unconditioned mind.

Kill the Buddha finally.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Life after death

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

David Quinn wrote: Is there death after death? That's a far more relevant question, I would have thought.
Jesus was once asked if there was still marriage after death and if so whose wife exactly a remarried widow would be.

Same question perhaps.
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Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: Life after death

Post by Diebert van Rhijn »

movingalways wrote:For me, to enter full Buddhahood or Christhood is to enter omniscience, and while omniscient, there is no emergence of thought or image or word present in your awareness. It is finished.
Awareness arises always with the object. Omniscience is a dream, a concept designed to cover up any flaws in thought and all the errors of ones way.
But there is another world where contrast, relativism and emergence does not exist; God willing, I plan to be of and in that world one 'day'.
You want to escape to a world where contrast does not exist. Being desires non-being as life always desires death.

This is still the earthy cycle of rebirth and desire. We could talk about such greater things than these other worlds you hope to join.
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Re: Life after death

Post by jufa »

Awareness arises always with the object. Omniscience is a dream, a concept designed to cover up any flaws in thought and all the errors of ones way.
This is not true about awareness. Awareness is the emanation of projected purpose of Consciousness. Consciousness is the omniscient of Itself. That Self projects awakening in the form of ideas when the object of Its intent becomes alive as thought. Human interpretation presents a flaw in it interpreted thinking of individual thoughts by not comprehending there is no where in awareness where omniscient Consciousness is not the object of Itself.

Should this be untrue, then surely someone can direct me to a place when Consciousness is not found.

A genius challenge.

Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - Jufa


http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com
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Kunga
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Re: Life after death

Post by Kunga »

jufa wrote: direct me to a place when Consciousness is not found.
I hope you don't get knocked unconscious anytime soon....lol
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David Quinn
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Re: Life after death

Post by David Quinn »

That might explain the incoherence of his writing - he sleeps too little.

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DonaldJ
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Re: Life after death

Post by DonaldJ »

Add to that how fearful mindless humans effigy everything they can't understand nor have in any way, no matter how hard they bear down on their diaphragms.. For them, trying to process deep thought and strong prayer causes them serious hemorrhoids...
One culture they paint a dot on their heads to pretend they now have all that a "third-eye" is and does...
One prehistoric culture in Africa or SouthAm, the villagers saw a Cessna fly by overhead a few times, so they built a female Cessna out of twigs and grasses to invite the great sky god to land and hump their sky-god effigy, hoping it bestow its blessings upon them...
Another prehistoric net culture builds clay statues of their pretend gods and heroes, then prays to them constantly for favors and a good life...
The list of human insanities is endless.. What's your fav, that you live by..?
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Re: Life after death

Post by jufa »

Kunga wrote:
jufa wrote: direct me to a place when Consciousness is not found.
I hope you don't get knocked unconscious anytime soon....lol

Does being unconscious eliminate consciousness? Please explain or is this just your speculation. . .lol?
That might explain the incoherence of his writing - he sleeps too little.
Since we are on the might kick, you should be able to explain you assertion Nature has no beginning. To be sure, should nature have no beginning, it cannot operated from principles. Should this be untrue you should be able to say open sesame, and the logic for existence, and the patterned which you say has no cause to be, can be explained by you who made such an accusation.

Of course you are going to run from these immediate incoherence words as you and your counter-part did have always done when your reasoning have been challenged. Life goes on!

The genius challenge still stands because no evidence being unconscious eliminates consciousness. All I've witnesses here is speculation.


Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - Jufa


http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com
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David Quinn
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Re: Life after death

Post by David Quinn »

jufa wrote:Since we are on the might kick, you should be able to explain you assertion Nature has no beginning.

I already have, but you don't listen. There is no point going it over again.

To be sure, should nature have no beginning, it cannot operated from principles.

Ultimately, it doesn't.

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Kunga
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Re: Life after death

Post by Kunga »

jufa wrote:Does being unconscious eliminate consciousness? Please explain or is this just your speculation. . .lol?
Please explain what you mean by consciousness.
What is it ?
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Re: Life after death

Post by jufa »

David Quinn wrote:
jufa wrote:Since we are on the might kick, you should be able to explain you assertion Nature has no beginning.

I already have, but you don't listen. There is no point going it over again.

To be sure, should nature have no beginning, it cannot operated from principles.

Ultimately, it doesn't.

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Just as everything you say, you give nothing but speculation of relativism.

All you have every stated to me is speculation.

This is not speculation. Just as evolution could not emerge from a ball of fire, neither could Nature and find standing with the fore-running Consciousness which sat the entire universe in motion.

The genius challenge, which you have a knack of avoiding still stands before you.


Never give power to anything a person believe is their source of strength - Jufa

http://theillusionofgod.yuku.com
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