baby goes home

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: baby goes home

Postby Carl G » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:00 pm

Me, too, Alex. I often read the first couple hundred words or so.

And I do find you a refreshing voice here, as Tomas did note earlier today.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:15 pm

David Quinn wrote:Both gospel and rap are 100% emotional and appeal to what is most base in humans. It is pure animal expression. Gospel is hysterical in nature and utterly depraved, while rap is violent in nature and equally depraved.

Both emanate out of black African mindlessness and impotency.

I can't find a single redeeming feature in either of them.

You can barely see the difference. How very sagelike.

"Pure animal expression." People getting together to sing with joy is "pure animal expression." Since you cannot find a single redeeming value to gospel music, I take it you mean this in the derogatory way that it sounds.

I know I accused you of thinly disguised racism, but it seems the disguise is thinner than I had imagined.

We know rap music is violent. It rises from violent streets. And Gospel music rises from people's hearts. You blithely dismiss them as being depraved. That means you consider both rap and Gospel as morally bad, evil, and degenerate.

So we are clear: I don't enjoy rap. But then, I'm a white guy. Rap is not intended for me. I'll leave the moral judgments to other people who might actually know something about rap music. But to call Gospel music depraved, well, I am just friggin' speechless.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Shahrazad » Mon Aug 18, 2008 1:31 pm

Tomas,

I failed to comment earlier, Shah, that it is my 10-year-old daughter that reads here, not the girlfriend (though she leans over the monitor now and then when Dan and/or David are in The Crucible having a go at it with a couple of the knuckleheads that rear their mojo..


OK, I was wondering if that was who you meant. Thanks for clarifying.

Alex,

I read your posts, usually the whole thing, especially if I have time. Sometimes I find them very entertaining. I'm not sure why QRS doesn't like them.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:06 pm

They have no depth. All shiny on the outside and nothing on the inside.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby Iolaus » Mon Aug 18, 2008 3:43 pm

Sez Alex,

What things do I do that you think 'suck the life'?

One man's meat is another man's poison.

Brokenhead,

You know, some rap music is not violent, is highly political and even spiritual, I've got a rap-reggae song that is pure upliftment of the spirit.

Actually, I think you missed the most racist of David's comments, in which he implied that the black race lacks the intellect for enlightenment. I doubt that is true.

I wonder though, if David has ever really met black people. They have the aboriginees in Australia, but I think they are different. I've never met them, so I don't have much of an impression.

I don't necessarily subscribe to the idea that all the races are exactly equal in all attributes. I find the black race to be gifted both emotionally and spiritually. American blacks, when at their best, are a fair shadow of the beauty of the African.

Rap music is probably an expression of that damage, but perhaps it is a healing modality.
I'm utterly thankful for our black people, and for having been exposed to Africans. Without that, I would be much poorer.

Black people have an emotional power that whites can't match.

Europeans can't even dance. Their discos are sad compared to an American disco/dance bar. The blacks taught us to dance is what it is.

What nation was more abused than Jamaica? And yet from Jamaica we get Bob Marley, who I think was a saint, and the Rastafarian One Love movement of healing and unconditional love and forgiveness.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:23 pm

Iolaus wrote:Actually, I think you missed the most racist of David's comments, in which he implied that the black race lacks the intellect for enlightenment. I doubt that is true.

I was commenting on cultural behaviour more than anything. If white people were to group together and engage in animal mob-fests (and they often do), then I would find this equally depraved.

I don't have any reason to think that a black person can't reach enlightenment, although I haven't yet come across any who have genuine potential.


Black people have an emotional power that whites can't match.

Does that mean white people have an intellectual power that blacks can't match?

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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Mon Aug 18, 2008 7:22 pm

But, David: Gospel music is depraved? You have never experienced it live, I'll wager. Sometimes I think you say things like this to shake the tree and see what falls out. I have to tell you that it really sounds ignorant. Meanwhile, I tell myself that since you are intelligent, you can't actually mean it. But shit - I've been wrong before.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:32 pm

DQ wrote:Does that mean white people have an intellectual power that blacks can't match?

Pay no attention to Anna's claim that blacks are somehow superior emotionally. The difference of intellectual power between any two randomly chosen people is far greater than any statistical difference between the races.
I don't have any reason to think that a black person can't reach enlightenment, although I haven't yet come across any who have genuine potential.

Do you come across "any" in the first place?
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Legend

Postby Leyla Shen » Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:18 pm

Well, that certainly fits with your particular Judaeo - Christian mentality.

I, on the other hand, saw him for what he was--one of several dope-saturated men who brought me many moments of pleasure. Dunno if I'd call it saintly! [reggae-two-steps smoothly across the floor] Quench me, when I’m thirsty--come on cool me down, baby, when I’m hot… That was until one day many years later--to a sweet reggae rhythm--I had this really strange trip and a blinding revelation that really damaged my boyfriend's ego and completely changed my perception of sex.

Reckon this one’s my all-time favourite, tho. [laughs] So, yeah. A s-a-a-a-a-a-int?? In a rub-a-dub style, I guess. Dem a go ti'ed fo' see we face, can' get me out of the race...

(Looking for that thread where our latest “conversation” hangs-a loomin’...)
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Iolaus » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:16 am

Pay no attention to Anna's claim that blacks are somehow superior emotionally
.
Ha, ha, well, I know what I see and feel. I said power, not superior. I am not entirely sure whether it is innate, that is inherited and genetic, or simply that civilization slowly beats it out of people over the hundreds and the thousands of years. But I suspect the former.
The difference of intellectual power between any two randomly chosen people is far greater than any statistical difference between the races.

This is so and there are plenty of intelligent blacks. As to whether they as a race would hit the same curve as whites, or whether whites hit the same as orientals, is a question. So far, if there is a difference in large numbers, it appears the orientals are ahead. Then too, there is more than one type of intelligence.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:08 am

Iolaus wrote:This is so and there are plenty of intelligent blacks. As to whether they as a race would hit the same curve as whites, or whether whites hit the same as orientals, is a question. So far, if there is a difference in large numbers, it appears the orientals are ahead. Then too, there is more than one type of intelligence.

Anna, you do know that antiques or carpets can be Oriental, but the people you are referring to are called Asians? Calling Asians "Orientals" would be like calling black people "coloreds." Not as bad as "nigger," but still improper.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby maestro » Tue Aug 19, 2008 5:30 am

brokenhead wrote:Pay no attention to Anna's claim that blacks are somehow superior emotionally. The difference of intellectual power between any two randomly chosen people is far greater than any statistical difference between the races.

I think a randomly chosen white (likely to have better educational/economic opportunities) would beat a randomly chosen black, (who is likely to be poor etc). Plus culture and upbringing plays a large part, Jews and Asians excel in studies due to this very reason.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Alex Jacob » Tue Aug 19, 2008 7:47 am

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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:17 am

brokenhead wrote:But, David: Gospel music is depraved? You have never experienced it live, I'll wager.

Death metal is pretty impressive live, but it is still a depraved art-form nonetheless. Opeth excluded, of course.


Sometimes I think you say things like this to shake the tree and see what falls out. I have to tell you that it really sounds ignorant. Meanwhile, I tell myself that since you are intelligent, you can't actually mean it. But shit - I've been wrong before.

I do mean it, but it is evident that we have different ideas of what constitutes depravity, which in turn comes from having different values and goals. For example, I like to emphasize individuality and wise understanding over emotionalism and mob-behaviour.

I see Gospel music as being very black, and I'm not talking about the colour of people's skins here. It emanates from a dark, sickly place in the same way that death metal does. The "joy" that is expressed is contrived and forced, as though the singers are desperately trying to convince themselves that they are not really in hell.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby Dave Toast » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:36 am

David Quinn wrote:Death metal is pretty impressive live, but it is still a depraved art-form nonetheless. Opeth excluded, of course.

Hehe yep, the mosh pits at Opeth gigs are a most edifying and sagely affair.


Alex, I must say I'm reading more of your posts than ever these days - the really short ones, sometimes.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Alex Jacob » Tue Aug 19, 2008 9:43 am

David,

Acha, I think I am beginning to understand better. If you feel that way about Gospel religious music, you would likely also feel that other expressions of religious music are similarly depraved, because they come from an emotional place, or express group sentiments, erroneous ideas about Christ as Savior, redemption, etc. I doubt that you could see much that is positive in Bach Cantatas or other devotional music, since it expresses the same sentiments, those that come pretty directly from Biblical scripture, emotional and sentimental 'feelings' toward God, and takes place in a group setting, a 'mob-activity'. If Gospel music is 'black' in the sense you mean, I'd be hard-pressed to name a human activity that was 'white'.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:42 am

I definitely think Bach's music is a lot purer than Gospel music. It is more serene and contemplative, as well as more structured and cerebral. It doesn't gush out violently from the realm of hell.

But it is still a depraved activity compared to the unsullied worship of God which flowers through understanding.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby Iolaus » Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:43 pm

Brokenhead,

Calling Asians "Orientals" would be like calling black people "coloreds."


What? Have I missed the latest politically correct phraseology?

C'mon. I never heard of this. Many times I read in respectable tomes of the Caucasian, Negroid and Oriental races. Asian is used too, no doubt.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:22 pm

Iolaus wrote:Brokenhead,

Calling Asians "Orientals" would be like calling black people "coloreds."


What? Have I missed the latest politically correct phraseology?

C'mon. I never heard of this. Many times I read in respectable tomes of the Caucasian, Negroid and Oriental races. Asian is used too, no doubt.

From Wiktionary:
NounSingular
oriental
Plural
orientals


oriental (plural orientals)

A person from the Orient, or with ancestry from the Orient.
Note: this term is considered by some to be objectionable in American English.

[edit] Usage notesThe term "oriental", with connotations of exoticism, at one time referred to the people, culture, and nations of the Near East. More recently it has been used more to refer generically to the people, culture, and nations of the Far East. Even more recently, in some places it has come to be considered objectionable or offensive, particularly in its noun form. While "the Orient" has become a somewhat dated term, "oriental", particularly as an adjective, still sees frequent use.

One complaint has been its frequent use by some to denigrate Asian people and people of Asian descent, which many feel has given the word itself a bad connotation. Others object to the term being used as a blanket term for people of Asian or East Asian descent, since that ignores the varied and often disparate cultures and histories of that area, thus emphasizing the sameness or indistinguishability of those cultures and peoples (and in reverse, imputing on the user a lack of awareness and concern for the cultural difference within Asia). A third reason given is that the term is so a vague that it is never clear which countries are included within the term. Most users, however, do not employ the term with any malicious intent whatsoever, and view it as a convenient and innocent generic term in the absence of more precise information.

Major objections to the term are fairly recent, and so it still sees frequent use, often by people unaware that objections to it exist. As awareness of the cultures in Asia has increased, its usage has decreased. Its occasional replacements, such as "Asian" and "East Asian", can also be seen as offensive by others. It can still be found in the mainstream media, though less frequently than in decades past. When used to describe Asian foods and other products, it raises fewer objections, and this remains one of the most acceptable ways of using the term. The atmosphere of sensitivity surrounding "oriental" suggests that it should be used with caution.


I used to manage a major oriental art gallery in New York and the term "Asian" was just becoming the PC preference when speaking of a person as opposed to an antique. I never noticed anyone reacting negatively to the use of "Oriental." But one wouldn't. Though we live in modern times, the cultured Asians with whom I interacted would have refused to exhibit any sign that an offense had been taken. It would be considered ill-mannered and weak to overtly bristle at a careless faux pas. But the gallery owners were Jewish and mindful of things like this, and I was well instructed in what was considered acceptable. My point is, it is possible to offend and not be aware you're doing it.

And, of course, "chink" and "chinaman" are right out.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Iolaus » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:04 pm

Major objections to the term are fairly recent, and so it still sees frequent use,


Well, I'll keep it in mind but I have little patience for this kind of silliness.

And, I'm offended that you would put chink and chinaman.

You know the world would go around a deal faster if people weren't all about how they can possibly get offended right and left.

Blessed is he who is not offended.

And, I got out my dictionary, the cover has fallen off but it's less than 20 years old, and I have decided that it is too tedious to type out the five defs, but none were bad, that's my point, and I don't want to buy a new dictionary.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:05 pm

I do mean it, but it is evident that we have different ideas of what constitutes depravity, which in turn comes from having different values and goals. For example, I like to emphasize individuality and wise understanding over emotionalism and mob-behaviour.

Implying, of course, that I like to emphasize emotionalism and mob-behavior.

It is still highly amusing to me that your "wise understanding" is that Gospel music is "depraved."

Your problem is you cannot differentiate between emotions. You lump them all in together. You think anger and love are different facets of the same basic thing, for example. They may reflect different aspects of humanity, but they are just not the same beast.

When I lived in New York, I used to go visit my brother who lived on Washington Avenue in Brooklyn. Many Saturday nights simmered down into bleary-eyed Sunday mornings, when I would have to scrape myself together and straggle out to the subway that would take me back into Manhattan. On the way I would pass a black Baptist church. In nicer weather, the stained glass windows would be levered open and you could hear the Gospel music pouring forth from within. I would often linger to soak it in before moving on.

Not once did the term "mob-behavior" cross my mind, nor did I feel as if I were witnessing "depravity" of any kind. I was hearing the sounds of human joy - the ones you regard as "base" and "animal." I would look around and see the milieu from which the sounds of joy sprang and think: more power to them if they can get that from this.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:07 pm

Iolaus wrote:And, I'm offended that you would put chink and chinaman.

That was supposed to be a joke...?

Hey, I don't make this stuff up.
Last edited by brokenhead on Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:27 pm

brokenhead wrote: Your problem is you cannot differentiate between emotions. You lump them all in together. You think anger and love are different facets of the same basic thing, for example. They may reflect different aspects of humanity, but they are just not the same beast.

Anger is love's offspring.

Differentiating between the emotions is important, but so too is seeing the essential sameness of them, and also what is beyond them.


When I lived in New York, I used to go visit my brother who lived on Washington Avenue in Brooklyn. Many Saturday nights simmered down into bleary-eyed Sunday mornings, when I would have to scrape myself together and straggle out to the subway that would take me back into Manhattan. On the way I would pass a black Baptist church. In nicer weather, the stained glass windows would be levered open and you could hear the Gospel music pouring forth from within. I would often linger to soak it in before moving on.

Not once did the term "mob-behavior" cross my mind, nor did I feel as if I were witnessing "depravity" of any kind. I was hearing the sounds of human joy - the ones you regard as "base" and "animal." I would look around and see the milieu from which the sounds of joy sprang and think: more power to them if they can get that from this.

Depravity can indeed seem heavenly - to those whose minds are steeped in even greater levels of depravity.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby Iolaus » Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:42 pm

That was supposed to be a joke...?


What? Oh! Of course. I knew that, silly.

Anger is love's offspring.

That's because love is the only emotion there is.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:12 pm

Iolaus wrote:
Anger is love's offspring.

That's because love is the only emotion there is.

In a way, that's true. Anger, violence, and cruelty are as much an expression of love as singing, dancing and hugging are.

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