baby goes home

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Re: baby goes home

Postby Iolaus » Tue Aug 19, 2008 4:30 pm

Yes, but they are crimped and antilife, and involve much lower consciousness. They are love compressed.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:30 pm

In many ways, violence and cruelty represent a greater form of consciousness than singing and dancing, etc, because they reflect a dissatisfaction which is consistent with having an ignorant mind. Those who sing and dance, by contrast, are living in a fool's paradise.

In the end, though, all forms of emotional expression are crude and depraved, and have no connection with spiritual understanding.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby Tomas » Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:01 pm

David Quinn wrote:
Iolaus wrote:
Anger is love's offspring.

That's because love is the only emotion there is.

In a way, that's true. Anger, violence, and cruelty are as much an expression of love as singing, dancing and hugging are.

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'expression of love'

Anger, violence, and cruelty can be self-directed.. or at others.

As 'expression of love' is singing, dancing.. with others or oneself.

So, do you mean hugging someone else or hugging oneself?

And, are these physical-in-nature or all in the minds consciousness?

Hugging a tree is kinda different than hugging another person in that a tree (whether male or female) can slap you with its tree limb (with the aid of a wind gust?) whereas a human whether male or female, can slap you with a hand.

Perhaps an exposed tree root could trip you in the dark and a human could trip you most any time for a little-too-close hugging it in all the wrong places.


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Re: baby goes home

Postby Steven Coyle » Wed Aug 20, 2008 12:49 am

A slimey bird told me I should uproot a tree and smack your children. But, I greet your counterfeit change as philosopher's gold - cause well, that's just the way I am. here's a tale. I was on a daytrip earlier, seeing what I could see, when I came across an uprooted tree, coupled with the thought of a girl I knew. I was wondering if I'd over-stepped my line, when my thought patterns shifted to an image of my mother - lacking disciplinary skill. Then, there in front of my eyes, I saw a woman (mother) donned in my favorite color, holding a picnic basket and expressively talking with her hands, with her son (that's me) giving mean looks, frozen in space. The dude I caught on the way into the neighborhood picked up the stone I always symbolized as mine - saw his nature in the dewey lawn.

Thanks again.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby brokenhead » Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:05 am

David Quinn wrote:Anger is love's offspring.

Bullshit. Anger is a purely human trait. It arises in the absence of love. Can you not see that? What is wrong with you? Love banishes anger and greed and jealousy. No parent banishes its offspring, unless the offspring were hopelessly depraved.
Depravity can indeed seem heavenly - to those whose minds are steeped in even greater levels of depravity.

You mean the heavenly can seem depraved to those minds steeped in depravity. You are the one conflating the two. You are the one who cannot tell them apart:
Anger, violence, and cruelty are as much an expression of love as singing, dancing and hugging are.

You always make my points so succinctly, David!
In many ways, violence and cruelty represent a greater form of consciousness than singing and dancing, etc, because they reflect a dissatisfaction which is consistent with having an ignorant mind.

They are expressions of anguish that love has been denied or unrequited. They express dissatisfaction that what is a god-given right has been stripped away by circumstances beyond control.
Those who sing and dance, by contrast, are living in a fool's paradise.

Which would be superior to you, a fool without the paradise.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Alex Jacob » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:49 am

Once you get the hang of it, brokenhead, you can pretty much predict what David will say. His brand of non-dualism is similar to Patanjali insofar as any modification in the mind-stuff---be it love as strong, tender, emotiion, or anger, or desire of any sort---is a step down from non-modification, which is what 'enlightenment' is. There is no 'good' emotion, all emotions are produced by engagement in illusion. One might say that love is better than hate, but in this way of thinking they are just poles on the same continuum. This is a modification of the mind-stuff and is therefor undesirable. The ego is also bound up in the polarities, the continuum, and the desired goal is to get off that wheel. From this standpoint, one stands in judgment of all human activity, and it all looks crazy and absurd, and is all part-and-parcel of this hell-realm.

Once you understand the underlying structure of this view, you could take it up yourself, and all your 'answers' would be like Davids.

And now---oh God have mercy!---Kevin is talking about an immortal soul.

What's next?! They may soon reveal that they conduct Mass or something...

I don't know about you but I need a stiff drink...

;-)
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Steven Coyle » Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:53 am

Enlightenment isn't non-modification - one can still have an ego. Even Ramakrishna says so. Once one's true nature is discovered, the more imagination - the more God.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Iolaus » Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:11 am

David,

In many ways, violence and cruelty represent a greater form of consciousness than singing and dancing, etc, because they reflect a dissatisfaction which is consistent with having an ignorant mind. Those who sing and dance, by contrast, are living in a fool's paradise.


You had just pointed out to Jason that if he becomes irritated, he has lost consciousness. This is true. Fear involves a significant loss of consciousness. Yet now, when it suits you, you want to pretend that all emotions are the same.

Check out Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto those who call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness, that call sweet bitter and bitter sweet!

And you who defend the practice of making rational distinctions, as against the postmodernists, suddenly want to make none.

Even some of the religious whom I have argued against, accuse atheism of having no basis for morality. But it isn't so - for if we are atheist then there is one positive value - and that value is life itself (which happens to be the same value if you are not atheist) and I pointed out that anger and violence are anti-life. They negate life and cause stress.
Last edited by Iolaus on Wed Aug 20, 2008 4:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Shahrazad » Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:29 am

Tomas,

Hugging a tree is kinda different than hugging another person in that a tree (whether male or female) can slap you with its tree limb (with the aid of a wind gust?) whereas a human whether male or female, can slap you with a hand.


This had me laughing for several minutes. I was not expecting it.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:40 pm

Alex Jacob wrote:Once you get the hang of it, brokenhead, you can pretty much predict what David will say. His brand of non-dualism is similar to Patanjali insofar as any modification in the mind-stuff---be it love as strong, tender, emotiion, or anger, or desire of any sort---is a step down from non-modification, which is what 'enlightenment' is. There is no 'good' emotion, all emotions are produced by engagement in illusion.

Some emotions are better than others. For example, love of truth and disgust with lies are good emotions. Any emotion that helps break maya's spell on the mind is a good emotion.

Enlightened people do engage in "modification". For example, teaching others about wisdom is a form of modification.


One might say that love is better than hate, but in this way of thinking they are just poles on the same continuum.

As I mentioned earlier, hate is probably better than love. It is a more honest emotion, as it more accurately reflects the deluded status of the ignorant mind. Love is like a veil which conceals the true state of affairs.

To hate is to be dissatisfied, and being dissatisfied (with ignorance) is a necessary condition for wisdom.

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law". Your enemies will be the members of your own household. Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it." - Matthew 10: 34

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Re: baby goes home

Postby David Quinn » Wed Aug 20, 2008 1:49 pm

brokenhead wrote:
David Quinn wrote:Anger is love's offspring.

Bullshit. Anger is a purely human trait. It arises in the absence of love.

What about a husband reacting angrily to a threat to his marriage? Or a father reacting angrily to a person harming his children? Or a Christian reacting angrily to a thinker who speaks the truth about love?


Anger is a purely human trait. It arises in the absence of love.

Wisdom arises in the absence of love, not anger. Where there is no love, there is no anger.

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Re: baby goes home

Postby Conservationist » Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:16 pm

Iolaus wrote:As to whether they as a race would hit the same curve as whites, or whether whites hit the same as orientals, is a question. So far, if there is a difference in large numbers, it appears the orientals are ahead. Then too, there is more than one type of intelligence.


This discussion hits on the biggest taboo in our society right now: how races, castes, classes and even worse individuals are not equal, but radically different in ability -- and that ability is congenital.
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Brokenhead=Cousinbasil

Postby Tomas » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:02 pm

brokenhead wrote:
Iolaus wrote:Brokenhead,

Calling Asians "Orientals" would be like calling black people "coloreds."


What? Have I missed the latest politically correct phraseology?

C'mon. I never heard of this. Many times I read in respectable tomes of the Caucasian, Negroid and Oriental races. Asian is used too, no doubt.

From Wiktionary:
NounSingular
oriental
Plural
orientals


oriental (plural orientals)

A person from the Orient, or with ancestry from the Orient.
Note: this term is considered by some to be objectionable in American English.

[edit] Usage notesThe term "oriental", with connotations of exoticism, at one time referred to the people, culture, and nations of the Near East. More recently it has been used more to refer generically to the people, culture, and nations of the Far East. Even more recently, in some places it has come to be considered objectionable or offensive, particularly in its noun form. While "the Orient" has become a somewhat dated term, "oriental", particularly as an adjective, still sees frequent use.

One complaint has been its frequent use by some to denigrate Asian people and people of Asian descent, which many feel has given the word itself a bad connotation. Others object to the term being used as a blanket term for people of Asian or East Asian descent, since that ignores the varied and often disparate cultures and histories of that area, thus emphasizing the sameness or indistinguishability of those cultures and peoples (and in reverse, imputing on the user a lack of awareness and concern for the cultural difference within Asia). A third reason given is that the term is so a vague that it is never clear which countries are included within the term. Most users, however, do not employ the term with any malicious intent whatsoever, and view it as a convenient and innocent generic term in the absence of more precise information.

Major objections to the term are fairly recent, and so it still sees frequent use, often by people unaware that objections to it exist. As awareness of the cultures in Asia has increased, its usage has decreased. Its occasional replacements, such as "Asian" and "East Asian", can also be seen as offensive by others. It can still be found in the mainstream media, though less frequently than in decades past. When used to describe Asian foods and other products, it raises fewer objections, and this remains one of the most acceptable ways of using the term. The atmosphere of sensitivity surrounding "oriental" suggests that it should be used with caution.


I used to manage a major oriental art gallery in New York and the term "Asian" was just becoming the PC preference when speaking of a person as opposed to an antique. I never noticed anyone reacting negatively to the use of "Oriental." But one wouldn't. Though we live in modern times, the cultured Asians with whom I interacted would have refused to exhibit any sign that an offense had been taken. It would be considered ill-mannered and weak to overtly bristle at a careless faux pas. But the gallery owners were Jewish and mindful of things like this, and I was well instructed in what was considered acceptable. My point is, it is possible to offend and not be aware you're doing it.

And, of course, "chink" and "chinaman" are right out.

See above underlined

Well .. ain't that somethin'. Brokenhead and Cousinbasil were both managers of an Asian oriental art gallery in New York City...

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Re: baby goes home

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:22 am

But I confessed to working in a gallery too, Tomas! We are many!

Here,watch this...
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:31 am

Quit muddying the waters Alex.

The situation is you and basil have been caught in the Act.
An act of deception.

Tomas has called for an admission.
Man up and admit.
To be caught in the Act is the best thing to happen to you.
the catcher is your greatest friend and teacher.
It straightens you.

It's not personal with Tomas.
Underlying all his posts is an authentic Care he has for moral nature.
It's empty and meaningless, and in the light of that there is Care, and that Care is found to be a stand on a principle.
Everyone from Obama to the janitor is held in the steady gaze of Tomas' commitment to a deeply moral nature for human being in their dealings with each other.

It's Tomas' 'thing'.
His authenticity in Life.
You can tell he had it as a kid when he tells of his Vietnam experience.
It doesn't make him popular, it makes him committed.

What's your commitment Alex?
Your authenticity?
Your Meaning?
Your Act of Courage?
The courageous stand you make as the howling, hurricane winds drive you mercilessly to your knees, that has you carry on regardless.
What is your breakthru' out of the machine of inauthentic resignation?
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Alex T. Jacob » Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:17 am

Dennis, what you have written, read a little differently (differently inflected), could easily amount to a scathing parody of Tomas. I see that you are taking yourself seriously (unless you are really some sort of devil!) which frightens me to some degree even as I am forced to laugh. Y'all set up and perform roles in a theatre in your heads but without understanding this. 'I' (that is, the Quadroplex) ONLY perform conscious roles but with my (brilliant) asides and soliloquys---and gorgeous poems!---dance like a merry leprechaun through meaning, value, personality.

It's empty & tomas- & dennisless, and thank the no-god for that!

My commitment!? You can't discern it? Why does that not surprise me? Well, here you go: My commitment is […]

There, finally! It's out in the open! Whew! I feel better already!
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:38 am

So that's it then?

leaky tap.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Tomas » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:16 am

Shahrazad wrote:Tomas,

PS - Be careful, Alex, he just may try to marshal support (from Cory, Diebert, Carl, Foresta Gump etc.) and get you kicked off Genius Forums...


And that could indeed happen, as Alex does not enjoy being in good graces with the 3 admins like you do. Even Dan, who is the friendliest of the 3, does not seem to like Alex.

-

Not to worry, Shah. His time is near, looks like Brokie/Basil, too.

PS - Yeah, Alex has morphed into 5 demon entities (Legion) and Brokie has morphed into a false confession named Cousinbasil.

When Kevin catches wind of their impish behavior (as Blair can attest to), will ban the both of them (as they should be) for multiple accounts. You'd think grown boys would better be served by morphing into real men, but sadly... looks like they're clutching onto each others deviances (devices) for warmth and comfort. Millstones tied to rope and their collective necks. Their mother's would be proud of how they (their girlyboys) have turned out.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Alexis Jacobi » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:37 am

Oh, I guess I would welcome the axe! The only problem with my multiple personalities is that everyone knows it is 'me'.

You are really working the Biblical angle today, Tomas. Now you're on to 'millstones'. That's Luke, isn't it?

    "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

And the story of Legion:

    "They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes. When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an impure spirit came from the tombs to meet him. This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him anymore, not even with a chain. For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones. When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!” For Jesus had said to him, “Come out of this man, you impure spirit!”

    Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?”

    “My name is Legion,” he replied, “for we are many.” And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

    A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. The demons begged Jesus, “Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them.” He gave them permission, and the impure spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

That is really a rather intriguing story, as far as the Gospel stories go. I admit that I sometimes see GF as a place where people live among 'tombs' in 'uncleanness', crying out and cutting themselves with stones. I myself have worked the angle of Healer. Now, I will leave it to you and to Dennis.

I come here only to bring a little healing balm...and then I flitter away. Laugh a little, Tomas! This is not quite as serious as you are making it!

Carry on with your...therepeutic inquisition!
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Tomas » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:52 am

Are you saying Kevin is aware of your multiple accounts?
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Dennis Mahar » Mon Jan 23, 2012 8:56 am

Now, I will leave it to you and to Dennis.


Don't go love,
talk it thru',
come to terms with it.

I can see you mean to heal.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Tomas » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:09 am

Dennis Mahar wrote:
Now, I will leave it to you and to Dennis.


Don't go love,
talk it thru',
come to terms with it.

I can see you mean to heal.

David Quinn doesn't care to ban people. But as Alex says, 'everybody' is entitled to multiple accounts. Perhaps when Alex first arrived here he planned on having one account. It's nothing more than a half-baked idea to deflect away from Brokie/Basil. If 'everyone' is permitted multiple accounts where is this forum headed? It was nearly shut down some years ago due to people like Alex, I guess that would empower Alex to do this behavior at other forums since Genius would be no more. He's a troll.

It truly takes a mental midget to troll and spam forums.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Bobo » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:53 am

Tomas: If 'everyone' is permitted multiple accounts where is this forum headed?

I'm aware that David Quinn had at least one another account.

Edit: "I'm aware that David Quinn had at least one another account." I was mistaken on this.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Bobo » Mon Jan 23, 2012 9:56 am

David Quinn wrote:In many ways, violence and cruelty represent a greater form of consciousness than singing and dancing, etc, because they reflect a dissatisfaction which is consistent with having an ignorant mind. Those who sing and dance, by contrast, are living in a fool's paradise.

In the end, though, all forms of emotional expression are crude and depraved, and have no connection with spiritual understanding.
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Re: baby goes home

Postby Talking Ass » Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:18 am

Curious. I have been reading Harold Bloom, a really great figure on the American scene. I found a little snippet that caused me to realize why, to all appearances, I have made no inroads communicating to you, belovèd Dennis. Bloom writes that one of the purposes of profound reading is to 'strengthen the self', which means I guess to feed it, give it range and substance, unify it perhaps. You asked about 'purpose' or intention or something like that and I would have to say (on a serious note), if I have a purpose, it is exactly in that: to strengthen the self. One cannot undermine the self's existence, or mind-fuck it out of existence, and still have respect or understanding of this 'purpose'. In this 'project' one (me) has infinite range, is not tied to doctrine or dogma (you seem to me driven by a basic dogma, frankly), and one is essentially free-wheeling as one desires to be.

The whole purpose of having life and being alive...is the 'cultivation of individual consciousness' ... and 'strenghthening of self'. In my view, THAT is spiritual work. And that is also why literature is such a valuable domain and why wide reading is essential.

It is not, with that in mind, at all difficult to grasp why I take such an oppositional stance to this forum (speaking generally) and why my 'project' is totally misunderstood. In fact it is not even seen.

Interestimg, eh?
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