baby goes home

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Alex Jacob
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Alex Jacob »

Ni ange, ni bête
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Shahrazad
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Shahrazad »

Tomas,
PS - Be careful, Alex, he just may try to marshal support (from Cory, Diebert, Carl, Foresta Gump etc.) and get you kicked off Genius Forums...
And that could indeed happen, as Alex does not enjoy being in good graces with the 3 admins like you do. Even Dan, who is the friendliest of the 3, does not seem to like Alex.

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Shahrazad
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Shahrazad »

iolaus,
I don't know why Carl gets lumped in with the wise ones here. I think much more of him than that.
The reason he gets lumped in is because he includes himself in that list. Pay more attention to the posts and you'll see for yourself.

I can't be bothered to look it up for you, but I think there's an example of that in the "judging others" thread: after Ryan makes a list of "the 6 GF sages", Carl dumps Cory from the list to add himself.

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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Iolaus,
I don't know why Carl gets lumped in with the wise ones here. I think much more of him than that.
Shahrazad,
I can't be bothered to look it up for you, but I think there's an example of that in the "judging others" thread: after Ryan makes a list of "the 6 GF sages", Carl dumps Cory from the list to add himself.
Quite right, and if Iolaus had paid more attention to what has happened on the forum then she wouldn’t get caught making incorrect claims. And if you want a reason as to why she fancies Carl so much, it probably has to do with the fact that they both seem to fancy supernatural explanations of reality, rather than explanations grounded in reason.
And that could indeed happen, as Alex does not enjoy being in good graces with the 3 admins like you do. Even Dan, who is the friendliest of the 3, does not seem to like Alex.
Alex’s main problem is that he doesn’t have much backbone as a philosopher. He is very imaginative, but his imagination is his biggest enemy, as he uses it for ego gratification, rather than what it should be used for – ego eradication. The highest function of the imagination is to simply reflect the behavior of the self back onto the ego in the most serious and direct manner.

A clown-like ego phantom seems to have taken the reins of Alex’s imagination, and has his spirit hostage.
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Carl G
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Carl G »

Shahrazad wrote:iolaus,
I don't know why Carl gets lumped in with the wise ones here. I think much more of him than that.
The reason he gets lumped in is because he includes himself in that list. Pay more attention to the posts and you'll see for yourself.

I can't be bothered to look it up for you, but I think there's an example of that in the "judging others" thread: after Ryan makes a list of "the 6 GF sages", Carl dumps Cory from the list to add himself.

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I do this to make a point about the capriciousness of the list, and the silliness of Ryan putting himself on it.
Good Citizen Carl
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Alex Jacob
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Alex Jacob »

"A clown-like ego phantom seems to have taken the reins of Alex’s imagination, and has his spirit hostage."

Eudemonia

Alex wishes to say just a few words in his defense, and he promises there will be ONLY THREE embedded links to CrAzY Black folk singing spirituals. There is no part, not even one, of what y'all talk about here that he does not understand. The majority of it seems to Alex pretty useless, pretty vain, and pretty irrelevant. What Alex does admire though is a sustained conversation about 'things that have depth and value' in respect to human life, but mostly what interests ole Alex is what helps the living human entity to feel whole, unified, positive, productive, happy, and spiritually alive. The core of it, the best part of the best part, is to have a spiritual life, and that these spiritual roads are open. Alex has been reading some down-to-Earth Quaker philosophers (Rufus M. Jones) who writes about the question What Makes Life Good? And Alex agrees with and responds to Rufus' idea that it always has to do with the higher promptings of 'spirit' that are the source of happiness for man---eudemonia as it was once called. It is much more than 'happiness', and certainly much more than hedonism, that brings us to the internal juncture where 'eudemonia' is alive in us, and frankly Alex notices that what makes people happy in that sense, what gives them this fullness, is something infinitely bigger and better than this dead carcass you live within and extol. Now, Alex knows that there is a great deal of worthiness in so much of what y'all value so highly, that is not in doubt, but he all the time notices that, from the look of it, for y'all, it is as if you are right up against an abyss; a dangerous place where dark 'spirits' lurk. Some of you are right on the verge of mental ill-health and don't have the slightest clue how to stop the movement that will lead you into the thick of it, and some of you are already there, and yet you cling, ferociously, to the idea-structures that produce it. That is pretty much what he has been talking about for quite some time now. Y'all are his Guinea Pigs where he can see ideas externalized, and take notes about how ideas function within their living, human hosts.

There are ideas and usages of ideas that lead to prisons...

And there are ideas and usages of ideas that lead to free and open places where the human spirit feels happy.

At the very least Alex hopes to point out that, from time to time, we can put down some of the rational tools and, like the children that we essentially are, remember to avail ourselves of human warmth and love, of word- and phrase-constructs (the poetry y'all hate and deride) that conduct our spiritual selves to happy and beautiful places...

"Gonna walk the streets of gold,
In the homeland of the soul..."

...so that our whole self, body, mind, emotions, gets to feel the cleansing currents of well-being. Alex does not propose that reasoning, thinking, philosophy and all that stuff is to be discarded or avoided---it certainly is critical---but he notes that it can become its own obsession, a form of possession, that takes hold of the person and bit by bit distorts that person, causes him to retreat further and further away, and all on the sudden to start actually believing the mad constructs, for example, that you often put forward.

Alex believes that, in the final analysis and at the final point, it all seems to come down to what we are possessed by. For we moderns, he is fond of saying, the means through which we are possessed and controlled is ideas, and so in a certain sense ideas are like spirits. They are not original to us, but come into us, we entertain them, but we have to know how to handle them and not let them handle or possess us. It don't take no rocket scientist to see how modern man has been possessed by dark and dangerous ideas that have led to horrible outcomes.

To Whom Shall I Turn

Sometimes, Alex says, we get more from singing happily than from 'reasoning' miserably (that is if your 'reasoning' is used as the comparison point, dear one).
Last edited by Anonymous on Sun Aug 17, 2008 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ni ange, ni bête
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Alex,

Btw, why do you keep posting links to outdated black and white music videos sung by black choir singers? I don’t quite follow.
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Alex Jacob
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Alex Jacob »

Simple! A clown-like ego phantom seems to have taken the reins of my imagination, and has my spirit hostage.

I was caused to do it, brother.

Here's one in color...and another.

The world's just a picture of what's inside of you and me
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Shahrazad
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Shahrazad »

Carl,
I do this to make a point about the capriciousness of the list, and the silliness of Ryan putting himself on it.
In that case, you could have replaced Ryan by someone else, such as ataraxia, brokenhead or Maestro.

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maestro
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Re: baby goes home

Post by maestro »

Shahrazad wrote: So Ryan's idea that robots would do a better job at raising children than women is complete bullshit. But then, most of us here do not expect him to speak any truth.
I disagree, I have only seen Ryan speaking, what he believes to be correct and true, regardless of whatever reaction his posts might cause. So in a sense he is quite the despised fearless sage.

A lot of his posts though reflect a yearning of the kind of mechanical and ordered setup portrayed in "Brave new world". Huxley wanted the reader to have a strong repulsion for this kind of a society. However, when I read that book and then compared it to millennia of human history filled with disease, ignorance, despair, warfare, insecurity, brutality and misery, I actually wished that I lived in that world.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: baby goes home

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Maestro,
I disagree, I have only seen Ryan speaking, what he believes to be correct and true, regardless of whatever reaction his posts might cause. So in a sense he is quite the despised fearless sage.

A lot of his posts though reflect a yearning of the kind of mechanical and ordered setup portrayed in "Brave new world". Huxley wanted the reader to have a strong repulsion for this kind of a society. However, when I read that book and then compared it to millennia of human history filled with disease, ignorance, despair, warfare, insecurity, brutality and misery, I actually wished that I lived in that world.
That is an interesting point about Huxley. Many times, these drug-inspired humanists tend to reject technology altogether because they initially associate all technology with the world of ambition, business, greed, corporate excess, and so on. As they see the damage technology causes to the environment, and so they blame technology as the sole cause of humanities plight. However, they do not understand that this is a problem caused by overpopulation, and not by the existence of technology alone. And because they miss this point, they tend to yearn for a more natural farm life, a return to a more rural way of doing things. They believe sustainability is a regression to a return to land movement, devoid of technology.

Furthermore, a rural life devoid of technology is not easy by any means. You must get up in the early morning and work long hours into the evening doing very physical labor. On the contrary, an advanced technocratic society offers the hope of a more automated existence. I think any man with any soul and courage at all yearns for absolute freedom, and if that cannot be attained for this generation, then we should at least be moving in that direction for future generations.

However, a utopia might have elements of both of these visions combined. For instance: robots may drive the more automated industrial zones that only require a small number of technical supervisors to oversee. Everything else would be done automatically by intelligent machines and automated software systems. Moreover, the residential zones might consist of social communities/research facilities of people who do light vegetable gardening, research science, debate philosophy, and some would grow their food, maintain their homes, cook, be close to nature, and all the rest of it. So you could have two polarized zones where the industrial zone is extremely masculine, while the residential zone is a bit more feminine in some ways, meaning sensuality, leisure, and maintaining the home are some of the main activities of this zone, but the occupant’s character would be rooted in masculinity regardless. Meaning the citizens would value things like “minimalism, wisdom, sustainability, and so on.
Last edited by Ryan Rudolph on Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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maestro
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Re: baby goes home

Post by maestro »

Ryan,
I fail to see the utility of speculating on technological utopias to enlightenment. It is just fantasy, just the pure land Buddhists who speculate about the pure lands where they will be reborn as gods with bodies of energy and enlightenment will be easy with little suffering.

Is not the whole point to be free of suffering in whatever circumstance one is in?
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Maestro,
I fail to see the utility of speculating on technological utopias to enlightenment. It is just fantasy, just the pure land Buddhists who speculate about the pure lands where they will be reborn as gods with bodies of energy and enlightenment will be easy with little suffering.
The utility of it is that we need to agree what direction we should be moving in for the sake of our future selves. So if you prefer an outcome in the future for your future self that is different from the present, then that knowledge is your compass of what actions need to be taken to achieve your desired goals. For instance: Such a vision outlined above requires a drastic reduction in population, a drastic acceleration of technological process, a drastic maturity of consciousness, a drastic overhaul of our agriculture systems, a drastic revamping of what energy sources we use, and so on. We need to be the conscious creators of our future selves. And because, we are our environment, we must understand the vital parts of that environment, as it pertains to the health of our collective consciousness.
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Carl G
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Re: baby goes home

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maestro wrote:
Shahrazad wrote: So Ryan's idea that robots would do a better job at raising children than women is complete bullshit. But then, most of us here do not expect him to speak any truth.
I disagree, I have only seen Ryan speaking, what he believes to be correct and true, regardless of whatever reaction his posts might cause. So in a sense he is quite the despised fearless sage.
A person speaking what he believes to be correct and true does make him a sage. It may just as well make him a fool. And in Ryan's case, here in this cyber medium, I don't see cause to surmise that he is despised or fearless.
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maestro
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Re: baby goes home

Post by maestro »

Ryan Rudolph wrote:The utility of it is that we need to agree what direction we should be moving in for the sake of our future selves.
To radically alter the course of the world requires you to have god-like powers and vision. Otherwise it is just in the realm of fantasy.

Better to work on a problem in which there is some chance of success.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Maestro,
To radically alter the course of the world requires you to have god-like powers and vision. Otherwise it is just in the realm of fantasy.

Better to work on a problem in which there is some chance of success.
Just by talking about all the causes of a problem changing the way large amounts of people see the problem. That is all I’m saying. Understanding the solution to a problem eventually results in action. I think we are probably headed for tough times, which is going to pressure us to come up with innovative solutions. So I’m just predicting what I suspect will be the future anyway. However, by talking about it better prepares people for it.
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David Quinn
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Re: baby goes home

Post by David Quinn »

There is only a hairs-breadth difference between spiritual black gospel singing and angry, violent rap.

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Dan Rowden
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Dan Rowden »

Rap is about something nominally real.
Iolaus
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Iolaus »

Timeless wisdom indeed!

Talk of a technology which does not exist, and which it is unlikely can ever exist, and which if it could exist would be prohibitively expensive.

As if a robot can look a baby in the eyes, and mirror the world for them.
Truth is a pathless land.
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where all love and warmth is? maybe canada!

Post by mansman »

Not wish to argue or make bad feelings but when I read "avail ourselves of human warmth and love" by brother Alex I said inside "dont I wish! dont a million homeless street people and many more million lonely old people some thrown in nursing homes to die hidden wish! And that just in USA I read. Never mind the two million in jail condemned to remain sick.
Funny how so many stray dogs and cats can avail themselves, but millions of desperate poor people cannot. What a screw up country you have here, sorry to say but that my impression, just insane!
Your dream Alex is only fantasy until people change not by filling with love but with more wisdom, this seem right to me. Those loving the needy (dogs and cats mostly!) dont really have love to give, they just ENJOY to be with furry things, and the ego inside them likes to feel like savior when they feed and mend needy animals stomachs and paws. Self-serving activity, 2 % honorable 98% selfish. Substitute for motherly needs. If they really had love in them would so many American be lonely and homeless and friendless and suffering? NO way! Dogs instead of people-haha! I got to laugh! and cry.

I say instead of punish pet owners who mis-treat fido and fluffy they start now to punish anyone who not give equal help to strange needy people as given to animals. An hour here and hour there. Keeps them out of jail, new rule!
Then with ego out of bliss maybe they see their true ugly internals and really BEGIN to become loving people which the many forgotten needy can "avail themselves of human warmth and love" .........

Anyway you all go off topic no one respond to main point. oh well....
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guest_of_logic
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Re: baby goes home

Post by guest_of_logic »

That jungle was too inaccessible to me; I prefer the forest.
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David Quinn
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Re: baby goes home

Post by David Quinn »

dejavu wrote:
David: There is only a hairs-breadth difference between spiritual black gospel singing and angry, violent rap.
And what is that hairs-breadth difference David?
Circumstance.

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brokenhead
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Re: baby goes home

Post by brokenhead »

David Quinn wrote:There is only a hairs-breadth difference between spiritual black gospel singing and angry, violent rap.
dejavu wrote:And what is that hairs-breadth difference David?
Dan Rowden wrote:Rap is about something nominally real.
DQ wrote:Circumstance.
You are obviously both wrong, Dan and David. Or should I say obliviously wrong.

What is this circumstance of which you speak, David? The harsh realities of inner city life versus the lush comfort and security of the slave life on the American plantation where the Negro Spiritual was born?

And Dan, in what way are you using the term "nominal"? In name only, or marginally small? So the hard-edged world rap depicts is largely not real? Is that why the leading cause of death of black males between the ages of 18 and 45 is homicide? And the faith expressed in the spiritual is about something that is not real at all. That must explain how that faith has helped blacks in the New World endure and overcome the legacy of slavery, and how it helps so many survive the harsh world of modern urban life. Oh, that's right, I forgot - that harsh world of modern urban life is only nominally real.

You both clearly miss the very real differences between the rap that is violent (not all of it is) and the hope and love that inspires the spiritual, and you do so with a not-so-thinly-disguised racism that poorly substitutes for philosophical insight.

How moving.
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Carl G
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Re: baby goes home

Post by Carl G »

Back from church already, Broken?

How was this Sunday's service?
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brokenhead
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Re: baby goes home

Post by brokenhead »

Carl G wrote:Back from church already, Broken?

How was this Sunday's service?
Yes, I got back from church quite a while ago. Almost 40 years ago, in fact.

Maybe it bears repeating - for the hundredth time - organized religion is not my cup of tea. I prefer my tea not to be laced with arsenic. But one man's poison is another man's tea. I don't begrudge other people finding spiritual solace any way they can.
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