Please forgive the sages

[Imadrongo]

This whole sagedom is of course just the will to power of a type of passive "thinking" man who through it invents as good an otherworldly value schema to make himself feel powerful as does the Christian. I must admit that it's definitely closer to hitting the truth than Christianity, but, contrary to popular infinite wisdom, it doesn't quite make it there.

I'm confident that if these overly hasty sages didn't skip Wittgenstein or took the time and effort required to study Nietzsche properly, they would have avoided the metaphysical pitfalls and discovered the truth in all it's splendor rather quickly. That is, they would have then reached nihilism, rather than stopping short with some absolute truths such as causality and a dubious morality.

But fate had it otherwise -- likely it desired to fit absolute truth between some presuppositions for the ease of the weary sages -- and I'm sure it's better off for them this way anyways, as I hear nihilism really isn't all that comforting. At any rate, even if we wanted to, it's way too late at this stage in the game to try and change the convictions of the sages, for they are too heavily invested and they're getting old now, and best left to their mad bliss as all sick elderly are.

And the finite world will continue to turn and men of action of every rank and age thus far will continue to snicker at the sages, as at the Christians, who are one and the same all allied to their finite/earthly powerlessness and worthlessness, secure in the belief that this is inversely proportional to some other. :)

[Diebert van Rhijn]

This whole sagedom is of course just the will to power of a type of passive "thinking" man who through it invents as good an otherworldly value schema to make himself feel powerful as does the Christian.

Every value schema is "otherworldly" if you'd think about it for a minute. So you're not saying anything, really as everyone is reaching for power one way or another.

I'm confident that if these overly hasty sages didn't skip Wittgenstein or took the time and effort required to study Nietzsche properly, they would have avoided the metaphysical pitfalls and discovered the truth in all it's splendor rather quickly. That is, they would have then reached nihilism, rather than stopping short with some absolute truths such as causality and a dubious morality.

If you'd have studied Nietzsche properly, you'd know that within nihilism there's no truth or discovery to be found. It's not something to reach, it's happening by itself like a philosophical entropy - like a deteriorating house when there's no upkeep, rotten foundations, etc.

And the finite world will continue to turn and men of action of every rank and age thus far will continue to snicker at the sages)

It appears you're one of the few snicker-men. Don't inflate yourself too much, you might burst!

[Jason]

Every value schema is "otherworldly" if you'd think about it for a minute. So you're not saying anything, really as everyone is reaching for power one way or another.

In what way are you reaching for power Diebert?

[Steven Coyle]

False advertiser. Good at marketing. Though, a possible key to Diebert's nihilist bend? ;-) At least temporarily (low tone).

-

"In the dream, there are many characters to be found. Some shadow, some ally, some magic elixer. All creations, external archetypes, conjured out of the mythology of our minds. The weather, too, is on the inside."

"Hard boiled eggs, like charcoal, with some salt, are sulfuric impurity purifier - with protein. Gets rid of hen mothers."

"Reading your own body language, is to understand kinetic motion. It's also another form of 1+1, to A, B, C. Or the inverse."

[Alex Jacob]

Intuition and 'common sense' point to striking a balance between Christian idealism and the more Roman on-the-ground dealing-with-life-as-it-is sensibility.

We need in fact 2 or even 3 different religious 'cult's or 'levels' to deal with life properly. We need a Religion of Economy to deal with the most physical aspect of life, we need a Religion of Affect to deal with relationships and relatedness, and we need a Religion of the Transcendental Spheres where we intone prayers and mantras through the flickering flame of the God Agni (fire) that start subtle and get even more subtle as we move into the Rite.

From the Wilhelm I-Ching: ""All that is visible must grow beyond itself, extend into the realm of the invisible. Thereby it receives its true consecration and clarity and takes firm root in the cosmic order."

The great problem with Christian doctrine is that it is incomplete. To function nicely it has to mature, it has to get an education in realism, in short it has to study Rome.

Pretty soon, if the Gods have their way, we will have an idealistic Christian at the helm of state and we will get to watch this 'education' occur.

Oh Hear the Words of the Prophet!
More Prophetic Words
Who Taught You to Hate Yourself?

[Steven Coyle]

Alex Jacob saves the day with catagorization shadow box referendum.

(bows)

[brokenhead]

Pretty soon, if the Gods have their way, we will have an idealistic Christian at the helm of state and we will get to watch this 'education' occur.

Perish the thought! Carter was about the most idealistic Christian at the helm of the US state. As far as presidents go, he was a fine Christian.

I just want anything nonsecular as far away from the helm as possible. Let our leaders be believers in private. Let them, as soon as they punch the clock, not speak for God or any of his self-appointed clergy, but for the great, unwashed masses.

The spritual transformation of society will come about despite the actions of its leaders. Bet the farm on this.

[Imadrongo]

If you'd have studied Nietzsche properly, you'd know that within nihilism there's no truth or discovery to be found. It's not something to reach, it's happening by itself like a philosophical entropy - like a deteriorating house when there's no upkeep, rotten foundations, etc.

I think this quote sums it all up very nicely:
"... nihilism counts as 'truth', but truth does not count as the supreme value, even less as the supreme power."

In other words, we lack any real truth, all values are arbitrary, etc, but nonetheless this "truth" is not desirable, valuable, powerful, etc.

In what way are you reaching for power Diebert?

In one way through philosophizing to better understand life.

The great problem with Christian doctrine is that it is incomplete. To function nicely it has to mature, it has to get an education in realism, in short it has to study Rome.

As far as I'm concerned the great problem with Christian doctrine is that it wants to eliminate greatness, fear, strife, etc from life, which would ultimately result in a most pitiful and weak society. This is from my position on the other side of the wheel. Both are required. :)

[Ryan Rudolph]

Neil, is that you hiding behind that alias?

If so, It’s good to see you back peddling your wears once again….

That is, they would have then reached nihilism, rather than stopping short with some absolute truths such as causality and a dubious morality.

Lets examine what the "sages' mean by a dubious morality -

First of all, I would define part of moral intelligence as the ability to predict the causal consequences of ones actions, and refrain from actions that cause oneself and the world negative karma. If one accepts nihilism, which is basically saying, “I can do whatever I want because there is no wisdom, no causality, and all men behave like animals so let the games begin” That sort of reasoning appeals more to the lower animal brain that wants an excuse to feel excited, to feel bad, to feel deceitful, and to feel as though it has the freedom to gratify its ID consciousness as much as possible.

And the finite world will continue to turn and men of action of every rank and age thus far will continue to snicker at the sages, as at the Christians, who are one and the same all allied to their finite/earthly powerlessness and worthlessness, secure in the belief that this is inversely proportional to some other. :)

One could argue that the world is becoming much more moral than it was even 100 years ago – Technological acceleration has a way of doing that. Wars aren’t as bloody, humans are a bit more tolerant, and talks between countries are more diplomatic. It isn’t full blown wisdom, but the world is defining going through a transition period, and technology and wisdom will be paramount in that transition… Nihilism on the other hand will just be considered another one of those poorly thought out ideologies similar to communism, deism, nationalism, new age spirituality, and the like.

Btw, I still believe that one can study wisdom, and still work in the world as a regular citizen. Being a man of action has a million faces. First of all, there is being a man of action in an absolute sense, meaning that one goes beyond the ego, increases ones overall emotional intelligence, and truly lives according to the laws of causality. And then there is being a man of action in a more pragmatic sense, it is acting in the world according to ones own talents as a means to survive, and contribute to the free market capitalist society, whether one wants to run a business, be a scientist or be a teacher, or just work a regular job.

Neil, if I remember your reasoning correctly, you believe that the world is overpopulated, and that violent action is necessary to curb population levels, but you are not considering the affects that the free market economy, education, and technology have on the population. In many developed countries there is actually negative population growth, and so we should encourage other countries with high birth rates and high death rates to adopt a similar economic model, and educate them with contraceptive methods, and so on. There is no reason to result to violence, as there are laws in place other than violence that keep population levels at a certain level. For instance: if an environment cannot support a certain number of people, then they starve. This is causality taking care of the problem, no violence needed. And I’m not from the school of thought that believes that we should keep sending in food to an overpopulated area, we should instead educate people on the negative economic affects of overpopulation, while giving them contraceptive tools to prevent pregnancies. If there was a globally mandated social program provided by an organization such as the United Nations, then I believe it could be quite successful. Actually Organizations such as Planned Parenthood, Red Cross, and the like have similar programs already in action.

Have you ever heard the quote by John Lennon, "There are no problems, only solutions" that is how an enlightened optimist thinks. And Moreover, there are many solutions to the same problem. And so violence is a possible solution to the problem, but it is brutal, and harsh in its casual ramifications, so I would suggest resorting to a series of interconnected solutions that result in the same outcome, but require more intellectual work, rather than physical barbarity.

In my opinion, playing the violence card is just sloppy intellectual work. It is turning off the neocortex, and letting the lower animal brain have its way with the entire cognitive field...

[Diebert van Rhijn]

In what way are you reaching for power Diebert?

In one way through philosophizing to better understand life.

Power at the core is about capacity, ability or potential for action. Only with 'action' is meant a fundamental exchange of power, or just any process.

One basic reach for power would be to maintain the capacity to have ones daily bread.

Drongo seems to hint at the possible disconnect between a feeling of power, a mere desire or dream and the action or exchange that would make it meaningful. In such way the reach of power becomes truly 'reversible' in that it could become reaction, passivity or in other words: loss of power, the losing end of any exchange. Nietzsche's slave morality but it might hide behind a belief to have increased power instead of having really lost it, given it away.

Drongo can correct me if I understand him wrong. I suspect he tries to make a distinction between the power (relations) wielded and perceived by "men of action" and the sense of power his sage might experience when the grip on his understanding increases (the strengthening of faith). Both the same principle but different side of the coin.

[Jason]

First of all, I would define part of moral intelligence as the ability to predict the causal consequences of ones actions, and refrain from actions that cause oneself and the world negative karma.

If you believe that the effects(consequences) of a particular cause(action) continue on indefinitely into the unknowable future, how could you ever really know which actions are going to lead to "negative karma"? To use an example based in conventional morality: saving a child from death by disease might seem moral in the short term, but what if that child turns out to be Hitler, in which case the action of saving this child's life eventually leads to a series of effects that result in WW2 and the holocaust.

Have you ever heard the quote by John Lennon, "There are no problems, only solutions" that is how an enlightened optimist thinks.

If there are no problems, what are the solutions for?

[Steven Coyle]

Too verbatim. The materialist. Scramble some eggs to flip. Not black, not white. Grey is matter. Luminous is matter... Energy is matter.

Yo-da! ;-)

[Ryan Rudolph]

Jason,

if you believe that the effects(consequences) of a particular cause(action) continue on indefinitely into the unknowable future, how could you ever really know which actions are going to lead to "negative karma"? To use an example based in conventional morality: saving a child from death by disease might seem moral in the short term, but what if that child turns out to be Hitler, in which case the action of saving this child's life eventually leads to a series of effects that result in WW2 and the holocaust.

You make moral decisions based on what you are certain of at the time, so unknown variables do not sway one’s decisions.

For instance: suppose a philosopher friend of yours drops $20 dollars on the ground, you have two choices – either give him back the money or pocket the money yourself. What are the consequences of each choice, if you give the money back to him, then there is no conflict, and no incident, but if you pocket the money, and he catches you, what happens? He gives you a lecture about the nature of honesty, you look foolish, and he questions why the two of you continue to be friends. Friendship and cooperation in civilization is based on many value judgments that we don't even question anymore.

That is negative karma in action, those consequences are what you can be certain of. However, suppose you give him back the money, and he goes to a strip bar, gets drunk, and buys lap dances. You couldn’t be certain of that, so I don’t believe it should sway your decision, even though he could waste the money.

If there are no problems, what are the solutions for?

The quote sounds like a poetic statement to me, so its not supposed to be interpreted literally; I think the statement is meant to illustrate the difference between the cynic and the optimist. The cynic focuses on the problems alone, and is therefore emotionally overwhelmed by the vast scope of humanities problems, and it causes him to adopt a very jaded view of the world. On the other hand, the optimist thrives off of problems, he sees the solution in the problem, and the problem is what causing him to question the world in a different way. In essence, the problem is the catalyst to creativity, and so moral problems, pragmatic problems, and empirical problems give flavor to his existence.

[Carl G]

Too verbatim. The materialist. Scramble some eggs to flip. Not black, not white. Grey is matter. Luminous is matter... Energy is matter.

Yo-da! ;-)

Steven Coyle, thrower of random signals into the void that is Space.

[Alex Jacob]

Carter was certainly a Christian, but Obama is/was a member of a Black American church that has a foundation in Liberation Theology (see 'Future Developments), and if it happens that he is elected to the presidency of the US, it will be nothing less than pretty amazing. The implications are very interesting and very, very strange. It seems to me that what carries Obama is mostly sentimentalism (sentiment), and these sentiments are extremely Christian in the most essential sense: Christian dreams for the devilish Earth. When the sentimentalism of the masses (a sentimental anti-war position with a naive sentimentalism about world politics and the very position of the US as an empire) is thusly brought into the 'real world' it will be exceedingly interesting to see these ideas and idealisms grappled with. It is still '60s idealism' and 'post-war radicalism' but 40-50 years later. In the world cycle, it seems, there are many Resurrections.

Also behind Obama (this is my read) is a long, wide and deep shadow of (Christian) ressentiment that, eo ipso, will have to come forward. Obviously, there are 2 extreme poles within ressentiment.

I, for one, am not voting for Whitey...
________________________________________________

Just for fun, and after I wrote the above, I consulted a web-based I-Ching page (Free I-Ching Reading) and asked about 'The candidacy of Obama'. The hexagram I got was No 16 Enthusiasm, changing in the fourth place (the core of the hexagram, the heart), changing to No 2 The Receptive.

"The source of enthusiasm.
He achieves great things.
Doubt not.
You gather friends around you
As a hair clasp gathers the hair."

(Full Text of Hexagram 16)
Text of Hexagram No 2
_________________________________________________

Personally, what I think ole Neil fails to admit and understand is that he would never choose the road he is pretending to support. It seems to me that his ideas about Nietzsche are taking place more in the imaginal world than in any sort of real world. Like reading a science fiction novel.

Let us just say that IF it happens that some of this extreme Christian idealism that is sweeping the nation's sentiments does actually mature into something potent, it would allow for the channeling of the will in some very interesting ways. There is always a game that is played: The Good Guys vs the Bad Guys. It is an eternal cycle. Getting the Bad Guys to stop doing what Bad Guys do is part of the game of the Good Guys. Foiling the Good Guys is what the Bad Guys love to do. It can all lead to oodles of fun, and anyway it (the new, emerging forms) will lead to all kinds of weird situations that will inspire and shock.
__________________________________________________

In this post, the referendum is taken to metaphysical and divinatory levels, where the will of people and gods is read in the images formed on tortise shells segments passed through the sacred fire (agni) and interpreted by bearded priests...

[Carl G]

Alex Jacob wrote:

Carter was certainly a Christian,

And a Trilateralist.

It seems to me that what carries Obama is mostly sentimentalism (sentiment),

...for Kennedy. And more specifically for a simpler, friendlier, more prosperous past. And even more specifically for the type of childhood most people never had but always wanted, a loving and safe one, in a white picket fence neighborhood with happy and loving parents.

and these sentiments are extremely Christian in the most essential sense: Christian dreams for the devilish Earth.

Yes, that's pretty insightful. And it's what happens when people don't get that loving and safe upbringing (and have given their power to satanic clergy and government); they disconnect and and get weird in the head.

When the sentimentalism of the masses (a sentimental anti-war position with a naive sentimentalism about world politics and the very position of the US as an empire)

The sentimentalism of the masses is actually pro-war, ego underlying entitlement underlying imperialism in the guise of patriotism. And with the disconnect (and with the wholesale programming being broadcast constantly) it is almost entirely subconscious. I have yet to hear anybody even mention the Iraq War in the last five years in my day to day life. Gas prices double and the U.S. economy is tanking, and nobody talks about the trillions going down the tubes, basically for nothing.

is thusly brought into the 'real world' it will be exceedingly interesting to see these ideas and idealisms grappled with.

On the streets, where the rubber meets the road, I see no one grappling. Everybody is "bucking up" and hanging on, and hoping to outlast this latest downturn. No one is questioning the situation; if anything it is throwing them into even greater disconnect.

Behind Obama (this is my read) is a long, wide and deep shadow of (Christian)ressentiment that, eo ipso, will have to come forward. Obviously, there are 2 extreme poles within ressentiment.

Let us remember that the U.S. President is selected, not elected. The people have little to do with who becomes President. Let us also realize that the President is merely a spokesperson -- witness G.W. Bush, who is incapable even of thought -- of a consortium of handlers representing the power structure. So let us not put too much faith that the personality in that chair will have any real effect on the actual agenda put forward upon entrance into office.

[Imadrongo]

Power at the core is about capacity, ability or potential for action. Only with 'action' is meant a fundamental exchange of power, or just any process.

One basic reach for power would be to maintain the capacity to have ones daily bread.

Drongo seems to hint at the possible disconnect between a feeling of power, a mere desire or dream and the action or exchange that would make it meaningful. In such way the reach of power becomes truly 'reversible' in that it could become reaction, passivity or in other words: loss of power, the losing end of any exchange. Nietzsche's slave morality but it might hide behind a belief to have increased power instead of having really lost it, given it away.

From a subjective, personal viewpoint, there's no difference between power and the feeling of power. The will to power is towards power given a certain perspective. When judged from outside by other perspectives it may seem to be a loss of power or not.

Personally, what I think ole Neil fails to admit and understand is that he would never choose the road he is pretending to support. It seems to me that his ideas about Nietzsche are taking place more in the imaginal world than in any sort of real world. Like reading a science fiction novel.

Will to power is not necessarily towards physical control over slaves. Nietzsche's will to power isn't something you choose to opt in or out of, but a principle that describes every way of life. For example, me studying it is an attempt to better understand several things, which would make me feel more powerful.

[brokenhead]

I have yet to hear anybody even mention the Iraq War in the last five years in my day to day life. Gas prices double and the U.S. economy is tanking, and nobody talks about the trillions going down the tubes, basically for nothing.

This is a shameful result of the fear the Bush Administration inspires in the populace. He is the quintessential pinhead bully, who envisions himself as Texas-tough, but only because he is surrounded by other knuckle-scraping bullies who have enjoyed the power trip, while Mr. Burns-like Cheyney is content to wield the actual power in the background, as his flagrant contempt for the American public and the rest of the world permits him to enrich himself and his oil-cronies. As the trillions go down the tubes and that dream-like budget surplus which the Administration inherited from the Clinton era evaporates, all it takes is a tiny percentage of that to go into the coffers of the coterie of the Bush-Cheyney power elite to make them unspeakably wealthy. As soon as the reign of terror is over, you will begin to hear people talking again. True to form, Bush has run the country's finances into the ground the same way he ruined businesses he ran as a private citizen, only this time it has cost the lives of thousands of America's best and brightest young brave men and women. I want to see Bin Laden caught and tried before I die, and I want to see Bush and Cheyney and their behind-the-scenes band of political thugs rounded up and tried as the war criminals they are, or tried for something. I want to see the smugness and contempt wiped away and I want to see them pay for the incalculable damage they have done to this nation and its reputation abroad. Nixon suffered humiliation, yet his "high crimes" were petty malfeasance compared what we have seen over the last eight years. More than anything, I want to see them pay.

[Carl G]

Bin Laden is likely long dead, and besides, he is/was just a stooge of the real string pullers. It is extremely unlikely that he had anything at all to do with 9/11, so I think your ire is wasted there.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

From a subjective, personal viewpoint, there's no difference between power and the feeling of power. The will to power is towards power given a certain perspective. When judged from outside by other perspectives it may seem to be a loss of power or not.

Hmm, it seems better to say that from a personal point of view that there's no difference between the will to power or the feelings (missing, desiring, valuing) of power.

Since you introduced the "men of action" you must realize the difference. Otherwise one could say that there's no difference between "men of action" and "men who feel they are all about action" or: "men of faith".

And if we'd go down that route it would appear to invalidate the whole point of your first post.

[Imadrongo]

Since you introduced the "men of action" you must realize the difference. Otherwise one could say that there's no difference between "men of action" and "men who feel they are all about action" or: "men of faith".

And if we'd go down that route it would appear to invalidate the whole point of your first post.

A man of action in my mind is nothing more than someone who does actions which have X effect. Someone who abstains as much from action and lives in the basement or the forest, for example, who in short has less than average directional impact on the world around him, is the opposite of the man of action.

[Sapius]

Imadrongo: A man of action in my mind is nothing more than someone who does actions which have X effect. Someone who abstains as much from action and lives in the basement or the forest, for example, who in short has less than average directional impact on the world around him, is the opposite of the man of action.

I would say it is but a matter of degree, but it is a will in action nonetheless. It doesn’t matter how another interprets the strength of impact, for even the least of it, does produce some effect as long as he/it is a part of existence.

I have personally consider the fundamental nature of existence, (not only humans), to be driven by a perpetual strife I call will to BE, however, will to power is fine by me, but I think will to be is far more fundamental than will to power, which seems to come into play with sentience around, but a will to be seems to exist even in a quark, particle or wave. Essentially, that is, all that can sense its environment and be sensed, depending on the nature a thing temporarily holds until transformed, but all the way, a will to be is always there.

I don’t know about Nietzsche as much as Diebert or perhaps you do, but I seem to understand the basic idea, which in my opinion, does not lead to nihilism really.

[Jamesh]

Drongo:

This whole sagedom is of course just the will to power of a type of passive "thinking" man who through it invents as good an otherworldly value schema to make himself feel powerful as does the Christian. I must admit that it's definitely closer to hitting the truth than Christianity, but, contrary to popular infinite wisdom, it doesn't quite make it there.

And the finite world will continue to turn and men of action of every rank and age thus far will continue to snicker at the sages, as at the Christians, who are one and the same all allied to their finite/earthly powerlessness and worthlessness, secure in the belief that this is inversely proportional to some other. :)

A passage I read this morning.

"Einstein reported a similar melancholy and described science as a transcendant calling, whereby one could rise above the pettiness, impermanence, and struggle of human life and visit a bit with the beauty and truth that underlies the real, permanent, nature of the world."

One can't really blame some folks from attempting to rise above even science, to the realms of pure logic/philosophy, can one?

[Dan Rowden]

Who spoke that shit, Jimbo?

[Diebert van Rhijn]

A man of action in my mind is nothing more than someone who does actions which have X effect. Someone who abstains as much from action and lives in the basement or the forest, for example, who in short has less than average directional impact on the world around him, is the opposite of the man of action.

It takes considerable effort to live independently in a basement or forest, actually. To even suggest someone in some urban community setting has more 'directional impact' on the world seems absurd. His actions are mostly of the passive kind (has to do this to be able to keep up that).

At is appears your man of action is a dreamed up one, one who believes he has impact of any significance. It's way more interesting to see this in terms of self-direction which would almost naturally gravitate away from community life, as most communities will not allow this self-direction, it would actually try to oppose it when it would threaten to question the many unspoken rules that keep everyone herded together.

Be careful also to consider which world you're proposing to make impact upon. Someone whose world is equal to the face in the mirror would have listed as greatest impact possible having a face job done.