Former atheist speaks out...

[aaron777]

Hello all,

I was once a very ardent atheist - I frequented these boards many years ago. I used to be of the same mind as many of you, particularly Kevin Solway.

Like many of you, the concept of "sin" was a nuissance to me and the Christ of the cross nothing more than a fairytale.

As my descent into nihilism progressed -- as I went deeper and deeper into the toilet bowl of rebellion -- something happened. I became aware of my sin, my seperateness from God and my utter lostness. I began to lose my faith in my "no such thing as sin" and "I'm not evil" doctrine.

When I put my trust in Jesus Christ and repented of my godlessness - the weight of my guilt was removed... and I was born again; I experienced a "newness of life". All this that these Christians keep talking about is "the Absolute" truth.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life... without Him we will all perish.

I know you probably think I'm some deluded heckler who's slipped of into a culturally induced religious psychoses - but I probably wouldn't have posted anything on this site unless I had already read everything on Kevin's website at least 50 times. I used to be virulently anti-christian... I saw Christianity as a plague of humanity and there was no way I was going to assent to it. I was like Fredrick Nietzsche on steroids.

So what changed me? Jesus Christ. I'm sure there are others on this board who can attest to what I'm talking about...

Regards,
aaron

[average]

What's it like to place all your sins, personal problems and responsibilities on an imagined character instead of facing them yourself like a man?

[Cory Duchesne]

I was once a very ardent atheist - I frequented these boards many years ago. I used to be of the same mind as many of you, particularly Kevin Solway.

Like many of you, the concept of "sin" was a nuissance to me and the Christ of the cross nothing more than a fairytale.

When I put my trust in Jesus Christ and repented of my godlessness - the weight of my guilt was removed... and I was born again; I experienced a "newness of life". All this that these Christians keep talking about is "the Absolute" truth.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life... without Him we will all perish.

It's really bizarre to me how a person can completely do a 180 like that.

I mean, if you're going to seek comfort in a spiritual world beyond this one, why not be a little adventurous and imaginative? Why do you have to swallow such a generic idea promoted by just about any two-bit televangelist?

There are guys like Rudolph Steiner, David Bohm, Gurdijeff, Rupert Sheldrake, Teilhard De Chardin, and stuff like Shamanism and new age ideology. I mean, I don't have a need for that stuff myself, but at least it's a bit adventurous and half interesting.

[Alex Jacob]

What I find interesting is how our beliefs and our 'certainties', indeed any idea we have about 'absolute truth', is something that can shift. When once we thought of things being one way, and we were very fixed in that, later something happened and we sees things in a radically different light. It is especially true with 'matters of the spirit', and all that 'happens' in a part of ourselves which is exceedingly difficult to define. It is not just the Christian experience that one could refer to as an example, though the Christian experience always seems to involve the elements you talk about: one pattern of thinking, one view, which then comes in contact with a very hard to describe inner experience that no one except participants can understand, and the others tend to think you're nuts (it has been going on for a long, long time). The Christian experience, though, is peculiarly dynamic in comparison to some others, and because it is connected to the Prophetic message, and because the Prophetic message is ever-connected to the social body, it differs from, say, Krishna-ism, though the Krishna religion is also an evangelical religion in its way. I personally think Christianity is powerful and relevant because it can function on so many different levels: social, psychological, personal, interpersonal, ethical, even political.

Any time there is a 'radical shift' in the mental structure, the psychic structure of a person, there always follows a long period of upset and self-analysis with many rich opportunities for self-examination. There is a danger with all experiences of this sort, and one of them seems to me to be a tendency to revert or recur to 'group think', whereas the Christian revelation, this inner episode, can (and should) operate independently.

"What's it like to place all your sins, personal problems and responsibilities on an imagined character instead of facing them yourself like a man?"

I am not sure, average, if you are aware of the ironic phrasing of your question! According to Christian doctrine, 'man' cannot handle and deal with the burden of his 'sin', the entire problem of his existence, and so only has recourse to a superior power that can 'resolve' it. Therefore, what it is like for a Christian is exactly what you allude to (unaware) but don't state openly. It is the lifting of an unbelievable burden, the release from prison, if you will.

But it does not mean that one no longer has responsibility for one's actions or that one no longer has to deal with them 'like a man'.

(And I write what I wrote above not from a Christian perspective per se, but from a 'messianic Jewish' perspective). (And also because I believe all of us can 'enter into' foreign beliefs and examine them, to some extent from the inside. I do this with the QRS-tian belief system---system being the operative word---and though the place they reside is almost insanely boring and bereft of 'spirit', nevertheless I can 'feel' what it is like).

[Alex Jacob]

(But it would help your cause, aaron, to correctly spell certain words and terms. Christianity has often been an underdog religion, it is true, but it looks bad when if one is seen as partially literate. Though some very literate people were also very bad spellers!)

[brokenhead]

I mean, if you're going to seek comfort in a spiritual world beyond this one, why not be a little adventurous and imaginative? Why do you have to tread such a generic idea promoted by just about any two-bit televangelist?

There's guys like Rudolph Steiner, David Bohm, Gurdijeff, Rupert Sheldrake, Teilhard De Chardin, and stuff like Shamanism and new age ideology. I mean, I don't have a need for that stuff myself, but at least they were half interesting!

Ha ha ha! You are berating him for not making the same mistakes you have! Have you read Steiner? Steiner will lead you directly to Christ. Bohm is a fascinating physicist and nowhere would you see him contradicting what aaron said. Gurdjieff never at any time denounced Christ. Chardin I do not know, but I have perused a boatload of New Age crap and I can tell you that you are giving this guy bad advice.

Only a dimwit would call Christ a "generic idea."

By all means, read Steiner and Gurdjieff. Read any serious thinker, and read him seriously.

[brokenhead]

Cory: You have done yourself a disservice if you have stopped learning about Christ and if your mental picture of "Christianity" is what you see on TV. This forum can help spread information; let's not use it to spread ignorance.

[average]

"What's it like to place all your sins, personal problems and responsibilities on an imagined character instead of facing them yourself like a man?"

I am not sure, average, if you are aware of the ironic phrasing of your question! According to Christian doctrine, 'man' cannot handle and deal with the burden of his 'sin', the entire problem of his existence, and so only has recourse to a superior power that can 'resolve' it. Therefore, what it is like for a Christian is exactly what you allude to (unaware) but don't state openly. It is the lifting of an unbelievable burden, the release from prison, if you will.

I guess a Christian is someone who feels good knowing that someone else is serving their jail time.

[Relo]

Well I'm sure any person can detest any sort of God and become somewhat of an atheist if you want to call it and stray away from the pack for a while, yet they have that inner feeling that leaves them a little loose without any guidance to what they are originally used to perhaps mainly streamed back to childhood to teenage years, or whatever you feel neccessary.

Religion can be easily filled in to that gap. You don't neccessarily have to describe it as a gap, maybe a fullfillment, but whatever fits best basically. At the moment, I understand this loose guidance on myself considering I feel a general way about religions as a good amount of people do here on these forums, just like mentioned above. While my human will would find it satisfying to say that if I did follow Christianity fully as a common folk would, I would feel emotionally and so called spiritually better and well off humanistically, but aside from that, I would feel that I let one of my biggest goals fade away into the dust pans.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

The toilet bowl of rebellion? "Nietzsche on steroids" as an example of atheism? How could you have been an ardent atheist if that's the stereotype you're left with?

Nietzsche was a deeply spiritual man -- nearly a Christian apologist -- and I value truth, not rebellion.

[brokenhead]

What's it like to place all your sins, personal problems and responsibilities on an imagined character instead of facing them yourself like a man?

What imagined character? You are one nincompoop. If you truly follow Christ, he will not only point out to you your shortcomings and responsibilities - including ones you may have "missed" without his guidance - but he will help you to become a true man.

[Jason]

What I find interesting is how our beliefs and our 'certainties', indeed any idea we have about 'absolute truth', is something that can shift.

Experiences are happening.

[brokenhead]

I guess a Christian is someone who feels good knowing that someone else is serving their jail time.

Let me guess. You're Jewish.

[brokenhead]

average: You clearly know nothing about Christ. It's never too late to learn. Fuck you and fuck anybody else who thinks Christ "died for our sins." And fuck the Catholic Church, which now sees fit to elect a former SS guard pope.

[average]

Fuck you and fuck anybody else who would ever disagree with me.

Fixed.

You clearly know nothing about Christ. It's never too late to learn.

Ya, I just don't want to end up like you.

[Greg Shantz]

Really.

[brokenhead]

While my human will would find it satisfying to say that if I did follow Christianity fully as a common folk would, I would feel emotionally and so called spiritually better and well off humanistically, but aside from that, I would feel that I let one of my biggest goals fade away into the dust pans.

What would that goal be? What goal fades away if you know Christ?

[brokenhead]

Ya, I just don't want to end up like you.

Good news! I'm sure you won't.

[brokenhead]

average: Fuck you and fuck anybody else who would ever disagree with me.

Fixed.

You clearly know nothing about Christ. It's never too late to learn.

Ya, I just don't want to end up like you.

Hey asshole: You misquoted me.

[brokenhead]

Really.

Your post has me mesmerized.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

...when you really think about it, this thread couldn't have turned out any other way.

[brokenhead]

...when you really think about it, this thread couldn't have turned out any other way.

Thanks, Trevor.

[average]

Hey asshole: You misquoted me.

Fuck you and fuck anybody else who thinks differently than I do.

[brokenhead]

Hey asshole: You misquoted me.

Fuck you and fuck anybody else who thinks differently than I do.

That's better.

[Cory Duchesne]

I mean, if you're going to seek comfort in a spiritual world beyond this one, why not be a little adventurous and imaginative? Why do you have to tread such a generic idea promoted by just about any two-bit televangelist?

There's guys like Rudolph Steiner, David Bohm, Gurdijeff, Rupert Sheldrake, Teilhard De Chardin, and stuff like Shamanism and new age ideology. I mean, I don't have a need for that stuff myself, but at least they were half interesting!

Ha ha ha! You are berating him for not making the same mistakes you have!

I've met a lot of people who have a need for a spiritual world beyond this one, and I find that the more interesting and reasonable ones do not subscribe to the sentiment of the pop country song: "Jesus take the wheel".

Have you read Steiner? Steiner will lead you directly to Christ.

I realize Steiner had a hard-on for Jesus as well, but he diverged from conventional Christianity in his views on reincarnation and karma - which to me implies that he doesn't encourage blind trust that Jesus will take care of everything for you. That's what I'm attacking.

Bohm is a fascinating physicist and nowhere would you see him contradicting what aaron said.

Bohm's work says nothing about having faith or putting your trust in a powerful feeling or an idea. On the contrary he advises against it.

Gurdjieff never at any time denounced Christ.

But he didn't posit that simply putting your trust in Jesus was the key to salvation either, did he?

Only a dimwit would call Christ a "generic idea."

So you think there is only one idea of Christ? As opposed to many different ideas, some more generic than others?