Enlightenment Finally

[Dan Rowden]

For what it's worth, I agree with Sam here. However useful the method maestro is talking about may be - and I don't question its utility, and nor did Sam - it is not enlightenment or an end to suffering.

[maestro]

Actually Sam, I was also thinking that maybe we should start a separate thread on this to avoid sidetracking the main issue. We can discuss whether enlightenment is:

1)The end of suffering
2)The end of identification
3)Becoming one with the universal soul.
4)Realizing that both personal and universal soul is an illusion.
5)100% masculinity
6)100% femininity
7)51% masculinity and 49% femininity (from Huzeng).
8)Ineffable

I think you get the point. Let us call the thread what is enlightenment (after the magazine).

[brokenhead]

Sam,

You think you are the first person to attempt to cope with suffering on a mental level? Puhleeze.

Did he say he is the first? And just because others have tried to cope before, he / we are not allowed to end our suffering?

Are you looking for some kind of pat on the back from the genius crowd? The very idea that you see your technique as some kind of achievement should tell you something about your own ego.

What the fuck is wrong with you, Sam? If you don't like the technique, you don't have to use it. You don't have to try to ruin the thread for other readers who may find it useful.

Nobody asked for your approval. If you have nothing useful to contribute to the thread, get out of the way.

-

Yeah, Sam. I hate to gang on, but Shah's right.

[samadhi]

Sam,
I do not want a course. Just define your terms precisely, otherwise what is the use of discussion.

Do you really want a discussion on enlightenment? Here, read this. It's a good place to start.

[maestro]

Dan:

Do you agree with Sam then that enlightenment is beyond the mind, and any method involving the mind is useless?

But what then is suffering to you, is suffering also beyond the mind?

[Shahrazad]

However useful the method maestro is talking about may be - and I don't question its utility, and nor did Sam - it is not enlightenment or an end to suffering.

So what? Let's call it something else. And now that this has been established, can we move on?

I guess I'll just put Sam on ignore. He gets on my nerves even more than Robert does.

-

[brokenhead]

It is thus absolutely essential to have the observational process that is faster than the emotional process.

Yes, but maestro, this is natural. This is what you want, isn't it?

[Dan Rowden]

Dan:

Do you agree with Sam then that enlightenment is beyond the mind, and any method involving the mind is useless?

I don't agree that Sam states things exactly like this. I do agree that Sam seriously underestimates the importance of thought and mental awareness with respect to the path. I think what you're talking about has significant utility there. I'm simply agreeing with Sam that it isn't enlightenment.

But what then is suffering to you, is suffering also beyond the mind?

Suffering is any perturbation of mind arising from ego-based thinking.

[samadhi]

Sher,

Please, put me on ignore. Then you won't get so upset.

And you might notice, the only objection I had to what maestro is talking about is calling it enlightenment. Otherwise, I encouraged him wholeheartedly to pursue it. Whatever works is what people go with in any case.

[maestro]

Broken:
I was just saying that think before you act does not work in practice. The reason being that thoughts are slower than emotions.

[Dan Rowden]

However useful the method maestro is talking about may be - and I don't question its utility, and nor did Sam - it is not enlightenment or an end to suffering.

So what? Let's call it something else. And now that this has been established, can we move on?

You can. But there's some things that need to be cleared up in the meantime. Ignore them if you wish.

I guess I'll just put Sam on ignore. He gets on my nerves even more than Robert does.-

And yet Sam said nothing - at least this time - that really should have annoyed you. You just see the whole thing in a context outside enlightenment, which is fine, but the fact is maestro put it in that context.

[maestro]

Come on guys I am calling it enlightenment. But let us discuss about the semantics of enlightenment here but in a separate thread. It anyway makes much more sense than the convoluted genius definition.

[samadhi]

Dan:

Do you agree with Sam then that enlightenment is beyond the mind, and any method involving the mind is useless?

I don't agree that Sam states things exactly like this. I do agree that Sam seriously underestimates the importance of thought and mental awareness with respect to the path. I think what you're talking about has significant utility there. I'm simply agreeing with Sam that it isn't enlightenment.

I don't underestimate anything. If you're inclined to mental inquiry, by all means, inquire. All I would suggest is that you not call it the ONLY path. And yeah, my only objection is his term. It invites confusion. If he just called it a nice technique, no problem. And if it does end suffering, he can start his on religion. That still doesn't make it enlightenment.

[Dan Rowden]

It doesn't and can't end suffering (though nevertheless able to alleviate gross forms) because it is, itself, a form of suffering (though subtle) - as is the implementation of any such technique. It has utility because any greater awareness and subsequent control of one's mental dynamics is a good thing. Greater sanity always is.

[brokenhead]

Broken:
I was just saying that think before you act does not work in practice. The reason being that thoughts are slower than emotions.

It takes practice, maestro.

[maestro]

It doesn't and can't end suffering (though nevertheless able to alleviate gross forms) because it is, itself, a form of suffering (though subtle) - as is the implementation of any such technique. It has utility because any greater awareness and subsequent control of one's mental dynamics is a good thing. Greater sanity always is.

Well the implementation is suffering, but once it is in place it is not suffering. Dan are you trying to get something for nothing.

[Dan Rowden]

Something for nothing seems like a good deal to me, if you can get it. What I'm saying there is that where implementation is occurring, suffering necessarily exists. One would have to have gone beyond the method itself to have gone beyond suffering.

[brokenhead]

Broken:
I was just saying that think before you act does not work in practice. The reason being that thoughts are slower than emotions.

I don't agree that thoughts are slower than emotions. That is simply giving in.

[maestro]

Broken:

The thought and logical process cannot be made faster than the emotions. The observation process however works in conjunction with the thought and logical process and is faster than the emotions. It resembles a skill rather than thought, though it gets feedback from thought and informs thought (both these do not happen in real time though).

[brokenhead]

Broken:

The thought and logical process cannot be made faster than the emotions. The observation process however works in conjunction with the thought and logical process and is faster than the emotions. It resembles a skill rather than thought, though it gets feedback from thought and informs thought (both these do not happen in real time though).

Then I'm not sure what you mean by "thought".

[maestro]

One would have to have gone beyond the method itself to have gone beyond suffering.

As I said that once perfected it is like say walking where it does not require any effort at all, to not fall.

[maestro]

Then I'm not sure what you mean by "thought".

Thought is the linguistic and logical part of the mind.

[Dan Rowden]

One would have to have gone beyond the method itself to have gone beyond suffering.

As I said that once perfected it is like say walking where it does not require any effort at all, to not fall.

Sure, but if the method is happening at all then perturbations of mind are still arising. Therefore, suffering and delusion exists. Enlightenment isn't the supersonic ability to cut off bad mind states at the pass - it is the absence of their arising.

[maestro]

Sure, but if the method is happening at all then perturbations of mind are still arising. Therefore, suffering and delusion exists. Enlightenment isn't the supersonic ability to cut off bad mind states at the pass - it is the absence of their arising.

How about swimming is not the ability to avoid drowning at supersonic speed, but to not drown at all

[Shahrazad]

Dan,

And yet Sam said nothing - at least this time - that really should have annoyed you.

Amazing. I guess you've established that Sam's posts are not annoying. No biggie, I'm using the ignore function now. You won't have to read any more posts of mine aimed at Sam, ever.