Enlightenment Finally

[maestro]

Folks finally I have acquired the end of suffering.


First let me tell you what I found was the cause of suffering, it was the interplay of emotions and thoughts. An environmental stimulus causes the initial feeling of an emotion to arise, this triggers the limbic brain, which then sends a signal to the thinking brain, which activates various habitual thought patterns, these patterns reinforce the feeling which in turn reinforces the patterns, also they cause other feelings to arise which activate other thought patterns and so on back and forth. Soon enough all the psychic energy is wasted in this feedback loop.

Sometimes there are patterns generated which are contradictory, i.e in anger "he is so bad" and "I should not be angry", these contradictory patterns also feeding on each other eat away all the energy.

The end of suffering can be achieved by breaking this feedback loop, the best place to break it is the point where an external stimulus generates the emotional feeling and not letting it activate its reflexive thought patterns.


Now for my story

My practice was observing myself internally,
and then trying to form coherent views on what I was seeing. All this
formed a real time observation module in the mind, which could see the
cause effect chains in the mind, and their emotional/physical
connections. This process eventually became so fast as to see clearly
in real time, that there was no feeler of feelings but various chains
of cause and
effects and no thinker of thoughts but chains of cause and effect this
eventually invalidated the self (which was discovered
to be an implicit assumption generated in the thinking mind and
associated with lots of associated emotional charges). Also when you
see this in clear action you realize that the body/mind is not a unified
thing but a conglomerate (a cooperative) of which thoughts feelings
are just parts.
The conflict did not end however with this realization, it ended when
the observational process finally traced the source of suffering to
the feedback phenomenon and realized that it can stop the thing dead
in its tracks.
Basically I would deduce that the process is a fast neuronal circuitry
in the neocortex, which runs faster than the limbic system. To make the
circuitry fast you have to practise, much like learning to cycle or
swimming.

Questions and discussions are welcome.

[Shahrazad]

The conflict did not end however with this realization, it ended when
the observational process finally traced the source of suffering to
the feedback phenomenon and realized that it can stop the thing dead
in its tracks.

Exactly how?

[maestro]

You mean how the feedback loop is stopped. It can only happen if the observational process is fast enough to respond quickly. It just needs repeated practice, to become fast. It is like riding a bike, you respond in real time to falling down, without much effort too.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

All this formed a real time observation module in the mind, which could see the cause effect chains in the mind, and their emotional/physical connections.

Wouldn't this depend on an emotional connection being of the 'fast' type as you must witness it arising and effecting? There could be all kinds of emotional connections in the background as an almost constant tensor or at least working less noticeable comparable with how digestion or blood transport goes unnoticed most of the time. How would you propose to make sure these are not operating anymore adversely on your thought and behavior ("one never even misses it until it's gone", so how even notice?).

Promising stuff, nevertheless. How did you conclude the 'end of suffering'. How would you test its endurance? Couldn't there be circumstances to make you fall back into the good old suffering over time?

[maestro]

"Wouldn't this depend on an emotional connection being of the 'fast' type as you must witness it arising and effecting? There could be all kinds of emotional connections in the background as an almost constant tensor or at least working less noticeable comparable with how digestion or blood transport goes unnoticed most of the time."

Well I think if something is completely constant it would not be seen, but variations could be observed especially if the observing process is faster than the emotion.

But I was treading the path for ending the conflict which is too palpable. I think everyone can even without an observation module tell when the mind is agitated or when it is clear and quite. That conflict is gone and I think that is the kind of suffering which is at an end. Could there be even more subtle forms is one interesting question, but they will reveal in due course as the observation circuitry grows even faster and powerful.


"Promising stuff, nevertheless. How did you conclude the 'end of suffering'. How would you test its endurance? Couldn't there be circumstances to make you fall back into the good old suffering over time?"

Well I have tested it for a few days and there is none of that good old suffering. Now since neuronal connections weaken if not used regularly, I think the suffering patterns will lose power while the observational process becomes more and more powerful. That is the basis for proclaiming it as the end of suffering.

[samadhi]

Your enlightenment sounds like mental gymnastics. But if it works for you, hey, go for it.

[RobertGreenSky]

Your enlightenment sounds like mental gymnastics. But if it works for you, hey, go for it.

I'm interested to see how the big boys will take it. It's sort of like nuclear proliferation - very dangerous.

[brokenhead]

You mean how the feedback loop is stopped. It can only happen if the observational process is fast enough to respond quickly. It just needs repeated practice, to become fast. It is like riding a bike, you respond in real time to falling down, without much effort too.

So instead of mind over matter, it's more like mind over "what's the matter".

I think you put things succinctly here. I have no immediate thought as to the actual analysis, but the solution seems quite sound. It in fact is mental gymnastics as Robert put it, it is exercise of higher cognition and developing it so that it can assume more, and more directed, control.

[maestro]

I put it in the language of neuroscience, because I think that gives a useful framework for explanation. It is really about developing sound mental habits (which also have a good basis in logic and reasoning).

[samadhi]

There is nothing wrong with sound mental habits. But sound mental habits aren't enlightenment. Everyone tries to cope, some are more successful than others. But enlightenment is not based on how well you cope.

I think its great that you've found a mechanism that works for you. Just don't call in enlightenment.

[maestro]

According to wiki
A coping skill is a behavioral tool which may be used by individuals to offset or overcome adversity, disadvantage, or disability without correcting or eliminating the underlying condition.

This is the elimination of suffering, which by definition is enlightenment.

[Dan Rowden]

The underlying condition of suffering is ignorance and delusional thinking. Are you saying you've eliminated those?

[maestro]

My thoughts are all logical and coherent with observations.

While a coherent thinking process is necessary it is not sufficient, there needs to be a fast enough observation process as I outlined in the first post. This is because you need observations in the first place to see how suffering arises and what can be done with it.

[Shahrazad]

maestro,

You mean how the feedback loop is stopped. It can only happen if the observational process is fast enough to respond quickly. It just needs repeated practice, to become fast. It is like riding a bike, you respond in real time to falling down, without much effort too.

This makes sense to me, thanks.

After reading your post, I've been paying closer attention to the "feedback loop" in order to stop it. It is slowly losing its power now that I'm more aware of it.

-

[maestro]

Shah,
The awareness can make it lose some power but it may also happen that you create conflicting habits in the mind. You will need to endure a lot of frustration before you start getting coherent results.
Basically try to remember when you learnt swimming/cycling or some such complex skill and it seemed you will never get it. This is similar but far tougher: an army of unexamined emotional and thought patterns is waiting to make your life miserable.

[samadhi]

According to wiki
A coping skill is a behavioral tool which may be used by individuals to offset or overcome adversity, disadvantage, or disability without correcting or eliminating the underlying condition.

This is the elimination of suffering, which by definition is enlightenment.

The elimination of suffering isn't a coping skill. If it were, we would have eliminated it by now since you suggest it is merely a step-by-step process. You think you are the first person to attempt to cope with suffering on a mental level? Puhleeze.

My point isn't to disminish the value of your newly-acquired skill. By all means, employ it to the fullest. My point is only that you not confuse enlightenment with some kind of mental relief. It isn't that. It isn't about developing a more robust, finely-tuned or well-adjusted ego which is what you are proposing. Not that there is anything wrong with a well-adjusted ego. Everyone wants one of those. Just don't mistake it for enlightenment, that's all. Enlightenment is about the end of identification. As long as you still identify with your thoughts and feelings, body and mind as who you are, you cannot speak of enlightenment. Really, why the need to co-opt the term? Are you looking for some kind of pat on the back from the genius crowd? The very idea that you see your technique as some kind of achievement should tell you something about your own ego.

[brokenhead]

the best place to break it is the point where an external stimulus generates the emotional feeling and not letting it activate its reflexive thought patterns.

Extremely important point, maestro. The reflexive thought patterns would then not take on a life of their own. Thet wouldn't constitute an "I."

Think before you act.

Think before you speak.

Think first.

Thoughts, ideas, emotions, these all occupy the same space. The denser ideation becomes, the coarser, the closer to emotions it gets. Thoughts and emotions are made out of the same stuff, the former being lighter and more agile than the latter.

We consist not of an "I" but rather many "I's." Each arises in reaction to the environment. The path of enlightenment is the process of corralling all the I's. You need not eliminate them if you can control them. The moment of enlightenment comes when all those "I's" fuse into one "I." Thereafter, no "I" can arise without dispensation from The Unified I.

Before enlightenment, several I's do in fact coexist in the same mind. You can see it in other people more easily than in yourself. You can see people behaving in contradictory ways all the time. You can't do anything about it and you shouldn't. You have your own "I's" to worry about.

It takes practice.
It takes work.
It takes time.

[maestro]

By all means, employ it to the fullest. My point is only that you not confuse enlightenment with some kind of mental relief. It isn't that.

I define enlightenment as the end of mental suffering, what is your definition.

It isn't about developing a more robust, finely-tuned or well-adjusted ego which is what you are proposing. Not that there is anything wrong with a well-adjusted ego. Everyone wants one of those. Just don't mistake it for enlightenment, that's all.

Come on I told you that the self ended before suffering, so where does the ego come in?

Are you looking for some kind of pat on the back from the genius crowd? The very idea that you see your technique as some kind of achievement should tell you something about your own ego.

Well truthfully I thought this was one place where people would appreciate and understand this, and they did. I am pleased, is anything wrong with that (For correctness the thought process decided to post for the reasons mentioned above and then used the physical machinery to post it, and then the visual process informed it that people are getting it which then fired up positive feelings)

[samadhi]

sam: By all means, employ it to the fullest. My point is only that you not confuse enlightenment with some kind of mental relief. It isn't that.

maestro: I define enlightenment as the end of mental suffering, what is your definition.

The end of identification. And the problem with defining the end of suffering as dependent on a certain technique is that, 1) what if you are not taught the technique or misunderstand it when you are? 2) what if the technique doesn't work for you? 3) what about the implied dependence?, i.e. the end of my suffering depends on your efficacy 4) what if the technique causes more suffering? i.e. this isn't working for me, now I feel worse. Enlightenment based on mental effort will always be problematic at best.

sam: It isn't about developing a more robust, finely-tuned or well-adjusted ego which is what you are proposing. Not that there is anything wrong with a well-adjusted ego. Everyone wants one of those. Just don't mistake it for enlightenment, that's all.

maestro: Come on I told you that the self ended before suffering, so where does the ego come in?

The end of the self isn't a mental trick or an intellectual exercise to solve. Pretending that is doesn't make you enlightened.

sam: Are you looking for some kind of pat on the back from the genius crowd? The very idea that you see your technique as some kind of achievement should tell you something about your own ego.

maestro: Well truthfully I thought this was one place where people would appreciate and understand this, and they did. I am pleased, is anything wrong with that (For correctness the thought process decided to post for the reasons mentioned above and then used the physical machinery to post it, and then the visual process informed it that people are getting it which then fired up positive feelings).

Oh please, don't hide behind causation for your posting. It's okay to say, "yeah, I did this and I thought others might be interested." To which I say, fine. Just don't call it enlightenment! Unless you just want to poke fun at the geniuses.

[maestro]

The end of identification of which with what?

[samadhi]

Is this going to be a refresher course on enlightenment?

[maestro]

Broken
"Extremely important point, maestro. The reflexive thought patterns would then not take on a life of their own. Thet wouldn't constitute an "I.""

#It is best to break it at this point since it has very little momentum and consequenlty easier to break.

"Think before you act."
#But this is hard to follow in an emotional crisis, because the thoughts are much slower than the feedback loop and in any case the thinking brain is compromised by the emotions. It is thus absolutely essential to have the observational process that is faster than the emotional process.

[maestro]

Sam,
I do not want a course. Just define your terms precisely, otherwise what is the use of discussion.

[Shahrazad]

Sam,

You think you are the first person to attempt to cope with suffering on a mental level? Puhleeze.

Did he say he is the first? And just because others have tried to cope before, he / we are not allowed to end our suffering?

Are you looking for some kind of pat on the back from the genius crowd? The very idea that you see your technique as some kind of achievement should tell you something about your own ego.

What the fuck is wrong with you, Sam? If you don't like the technique, you don't have to use it. You don't have to try to ruin the thread for other readers who may find it useful.

Nobody asked for your approval. If you have nothing useful to contribute to the thread, get out of the way.

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[samadhi]

Sher,

Sorry you got upset but I was talking to maestro. He doesn't have a problem with our conversation but apparently you do. I suggest you deal with it.