The logic of state funded self indulgence.

[bill]

Logically, if we all followed David Quinns' quest for spiritual enlightenment and higher consciousness, and lived off benefits, spending our days reading Kierkeegard etc, wouldn't this place a great burden on the state, with all these fledgling mystical philosophers around?

At least Wittgenstein dug a few gardens in his time.

...and the only people I've met in life who profess to have no emotion or to be above emotion are psychopaths and the personality disordered. I'd rather hang with Marvin Gaye and Nina Simone (people who have made wonderful art from distilled emotional experience).

If higher consciousness means sitting around on hard mats, sipping black tea and admiring each others sandals and beards, then count me out.

Where is the humour in all this?

Start a charity or run a marathon and raise some cash for ghetto kids. That's higher consciousness.

Thinks..... "Should kick up a bit of heated discussion at least".

[Shahrazad]

Heated discussion here? You must be new.

Good luck.

[Unidian]

I briefly considered responding to this, but you're simply not trying hard enough.

[bill]

I briefly considered responding to this, but you're simply not trying hard enough.

...and you are very trying with your lack of constructive criticism.

[snow bunny]

That would be taking all the joy out of life, Bill, so you are correct that we shouldn't be that rigid in our daily lives. I don't know about your ideas to start a charity or run a marathon, because that seems to be just an off-hand suggestion about something that has been done over and over again, and therefore is not very original. I'm not saying that I can be original, but better to just drift through life as something insignificant than to exert your effort doing something that doesn't matter. Of course, perhaps it is better to "sell out", as it were, and do the charity thing, or run the marathon. Maybe that will give you a longer life, and maybe it will make you fit in better, and altogether be happier. Who knows, it's difficult to arrive at any real answer, but we all have our opinions on any subject, no doubt about it. I would choose to be a bump on a log, rather than to run a marathon, unless somehow I believed it would make me live longer to exert the effort necessary to train for a marathon, and run it. Personally, I'm not sold, and if I die young, then I won't really know about it. I think I would try to live long, but who knows what would work to achieve that goal? Basically, it seems like you take your chances and see how it turns out.

Your avatar seems to be more casual than your latest post, so I don't know if I am on the right track here, or if I should just sip an orange soda.

[Leyla Shen]

If higher consciousness means sitting around on hard mats, sipping black tea and admiring each others sandals and beards, then count me out.

Start a charity or run a marathon and raise some cash for ghetto kids. That's higher consciousness.

Starting a charity, etc., is not higher consciousness. It's an activity you associate with higher consciousness. If somebody asked you, in all their lower consciousness, what path they ought to travel to be like you, what consciousness was exactly and why charity is an immutable part of it, what would you say to them?

[Dan Rowden]

I have to agree with Nat, the OP doesn't contain anything that warrants the effort of a response.

[|read|]

Hand-waving is so convenient, isn't it?

[Dan Rowden]

You would know, since it's about all you ever do. There's no argument, really, in the OP, just a ridiculous hypothetical not worth addressing. Perhaps Bill could state how he imagines it could possibly come to pass that everyone will suddenly up and start throwing themselves QSR-like into philosophy. Perhaps Bill could suggest why it would not be possible, should there in fact be some form of social movement in this direction that society cannot adapt itself economically to accommodate it. Perhaps Bill could explain why he thinks if society changed in this manner, work would not be a viable thing for many people including QSR. i.e. I don't think he really gets the point of being against employment in the context of the social status quo.

[edit: cleaned up a couple of typos]

[Unidian]

I'm not sure what I'd be "hand-waving" away. What was Bill's point? That people on state support who pursue philosophy are poo-poo heads? I'm pretty sure that assertion has been made in every conceivable way countless times. The rest of the post was about emotionlessness, black mats, and other things that have no relevance to whatever point there might have been, unless that point is simply another variation of "QRS are dumb." I don't see how it could be treated as a coherent post.

[Tomas]

.




bill - Logically, if we all followed David Quinns' quest for spiritual enlightenment and higher consciousness, and lived off benefits, spending our days reading Kierkeegard etc, wouldn't this place a great burden on the state, with all these fledgling mystical philosophers around?

-tomas-
My understanding of David's monetary situation is that he lives at his dad's place, and help care for his mom's last days on this earthly plane, she has now passed to the other side some months ago. He states that he has some money pocketed away from some earlier (legitimate) investment scheme.

I tend to agree though that living off the state is a moochers way of doing nothing constructive. You old? and paid into Social Security - then go ahead, take the money and run with it...




-bill-
At least Wittgenstein dug a few gardens in his time.

-tomas-
Right. There is no Garden of Eden - just make a go of it. No yellow brick road burning incense, guzzling on wine, staring at crystal balls or playing rugby on weekends and standing in the welfare line on Monday with the hand stretched out for some quick cash not earned the old fashioned way.




-bill-
...and the only people I've met in life who profess to have no emotion or to be above emotion are psychopaths and the personality disordered.

-tomas-
Stick around here and a few more will rear their ugly head.




-bill-
I'd rather hang with Marvin Gaye and Nina Simone (people who have made wonderful art from distilled emotional experience).

-tomas-
Cool. I saw Marvin Gaye concert back in the mid-1970s.




-bill-
If higher consciousness means sitting around on hard mats, sipping black tea and admiring each others sandals and beards, then count me out.

-tomas-
Yeah, not all its cracked up to be.




-bill-
Where is the humour in all this?

-tomas-
Waking up in the morning works for me. (the spiritually dead know nothing)




-bill-
Start a charity or run a marathon and raise some cash for ghetto kids. That's higher consciousness.

-tomas-
I second that. Drink one less beer and give that money where better utilized.




-bill-
Thinks..... "Should kick up a bit of heated discussion at least".

-tomas-
Sure, beware of the sideshow detractors though... this forum has more than a few :-(



Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971


.

[Tomas]

.



-hugh hefner-
snow bunny - That would be taking all the joy out of life, Bill, so you are correct that we shouldn't be that rigid in our daily lives.

-tomas-
You will die poor.




-hugh hefner-
I don't know about your ideas to start a charity or run a marathon, because that seems to be just an off-hand suggestion about something that has been done over and over again, and therefore is not very original.

-tomas-
Hugh, you best lie down and wrinkle up.




-hugh hefner-
I'm not saying that I can be original, but better to just drift through life as something insignificant than to exert your effort doing something that doesn't matter.

-tomas-
Yup, this place is turning into Deadbeat Central.




-hugh hefner-
Of course, perhaps it is better to "sell out", as it were, and do the charity thing, or run the marathon.

-tomas-
How many twinkies you eat today?




-hugh hefner-
Maybe that will give you a longer life, and maybe it will make you fit in better, and altogether be happier.

-tomas-
You best fold your hands and go beddie-bye, Hugh.




-hugh hefner-
Who knows, it's difficult to arrive at any real answer, but we all have our opinions on any subject, no doubt about it.

-tomas-
Wise decision... remain clueless.




-hugh hefner-
I would choose to be a bump on a log, rather than to run a marathon, unless somehow I believed it would make me live longer to exert the effort necessary to train for a marathon, and run it.

-tomas-
Are you related to Ryan?




-hugh hefner-
Personally, I'm not sold, and if I die young, then I won't really know about it.

-tomas-
Spiritually speaking, you already are.




-hugh hefner-
I think I would try to live long, but who knows what would work to achieve that goal?

-tomas-
You best stay in the welfare line, airhead.




-hugh hefner-
Basically, it seems like you take your chances and see how it turns out.

-tomas-
Keep your hands in your pocket, Hugh.




-hugh hefner-
Your avatar seems to be more casual than your latest post, so I don't know if I am on the right track here, or if I should just sip an orange soda.

-tomas-
Pour it in your bowl of Captain Crunch. You need the rest.

ps- Easy on the cough syrup...



Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971


.

[Unidian]

Note to self: Never second-guess your ignore list by clicking "show post."

[Shahrazad]

Sure, beware of the sideshow detractors though... this forum has more than a few :-(

You're one of them, Tomas. Of course, I make detracting posts too, so don't even mention it.

[Nick]

Musharraf is receiving billions from the state, so why shouldn't the American People get their share? I don't see any problems living on welfare when you are living in a self-designated welfare state. The state steals the people's property, money, and rights, so it's only fitting that we should get something in return. Socialism creates the need and desire for welfare with the countless negative effects it has on the lives of each and every citizen. Don't find fault with the people on welfare, find fault with the system that creates the welfare class.

[Unidian]

Jeez, that's pretty twisted. "Socialism" gets the blame now? Is excessive exposure to Ron Paul behind this?

In a "perfect" capitalist society, the poor (who would be incredibly numerous) have no desire to have their conditions relieved by collective action? I suppose they just "man up" and accept their lot in life, placing the blame squarely on themselves, or something similar. No?

[Tomas]

.


Nick Treklis - Musharraf is receiving billions from the state, so why shouldn't the American People get their share?

-tomas-
The 'full faith and credit' of the U.S. Government?




-Nick-
I don't see any problems living on welfare when you are living in a self-designated welfare state.

-tomas-
And so, George W. Bush's meager $150 billion fun-money surge will make a difference? As an aside to your 'self-designated' - just who is doing the real labor here in welfare-ville?




-Nick-
The state steals the people's property, money, and rights, so it's only fitting that we should get something in return.

-tomas-
The U.S. Patent Office holds all the property.

The Federal Reserve (central bank) valuates all currency.

The individual 50 States control all rights.

What you "get in return" is ???




-Nick-
Socialism creates the need and desire for welfare with the countless negative effects it has on the lives of each and every citizen.

-tomas-
Only if you allow yourself to buy into the grand illusion (of need and desire).




-Nick-
Don't find fault with the people on welfare, find fault with the system that creates the welfare class.

-tomas-
The minor child (let's say age-8) I find faultless and is therefore "deserving" of welfare benefits - but the able-bodied adult who would rather consider themself a victim of "socialist society" has no one to blame but themself for their predicament.

I do a heck of a lot of volunteer work because of the able-bodied who are simple-minded deadbeats passing themself off as enlightened folk - when nothing more than going through a newspaper will find them a job in the valley picking vegetables for $10 bucks an hour, but no, they'd rather sleep in a homeless shelter or stand in a Health & Human Services line and lick the hand that feeds them - than do any physical labor to 'pay their own way'.

Yeah It's that 'full faith and credit' that people like you buy into... the 'social compact' half-truths.



Tomas (the tank)
VietNam veteran - 1971

.

[snow bunny]

Don't be a baby, Tomas-the tank. I already told you my goal is to live for a long time, so I probably don't eat that many twinkies, since commonsense tells you they aren't very healthy.

I sure hope I don't die poor, but I'm only 20-something, so I will probably outlive you on that score, so you can't reasonably argue about something that won't be resolved in your lifetime. You will probably die poor, if you're an old veteran who calls himself the tank. Forget orange soda, maybe there was a little too much agent orange in your cup!!


That was quite the performance in that thread, tank, 3 consecutive posts where you used the same "satirical" style of posting, that definitely reads like you are truly a shell-shocked vet.. Congrats on living up to the stereotype.. Perhaps that is merely the persona you are trying to project, and you have had me fooled from "hugh hefner" on through the end of your garbled posts.

[bill]

If higher consciousness means sitting around on hard mats, sipping black tea and admiring each others sandals and beards, then count me out.

Start a charity or run a marathon and raise some cash for ghetto kids. That's higher consciousness.

Starting a charity, etc., is not higher consciousness. It's an activity you associate with higher consciousness. If somebody asked you, in all their lower consciousness, what path they ought to travel to be like you, what consciousness was exactly and why charity is an immutable part of it, what would you say to them?

I'd say "interested in higher consciousness? then queue here for trepanation. Too squeamish or skeptical for that? Then rise above your own ego and do something pragmattic and worthwhile - like helping others. Whatever you do, don't follow the philosophy of a man who committed suicide (i.e. Weininger). Steer clear of entropy.

[Unidian]

Um.... who cares if you "die poor?" Are people really so indoctrinated by materialism that even their deaths involve some kind of financial attachment? Wow... forget death, I'd hate to live like that.

Also - and this may come as a surprise to every American - poverty is a virtue. Yep, that's what pretty much every religious and spiritual tradition throughout history has said (until the appearance of the modern televangelist).

What? Huh? Poverty a virtue?! Does not compute! Danger, Will Robinson, DANGER!

[Leyla Shen]

bill:

I'd say "interested in higher consciousness? then queue here for trepanation. Too squeamish or skeptical for that? Then rise above your own ego and do something pragmattic and worthwhile - like helping others.

1. But, why? What relationship does helping others have to higher consciousness?
2. What form did/does rising above your ego take in your activities of helping others and in what form/s do you so help?

Whatever you do, don't follow the philosophy of a man who committed suicide (i.e. Weininger).

It’s apparent in your overall reply that you encourage following and not thinking since your reply merely comprises unsubstantiated assertions, as opposed to reasons. Also since, when it comes to Weininger, your greatest appreciation is for his suicide. (Oh, that to follow Weininger means to follow him right to his own end! What measure of ego is this?) So, what relationship does following have to higher consciousness?

On the merits of his thinking alone, I think Weininger was rather brilliant, myself.

What do you think of this, for instance:

Weininger:

None the less henids are things as vital as elements and characters. Each henid is an individual and can be distinguished from other henids. Later on I shall show that probably the mental data of early childhood (certainly of the first fourteen months) are all henids, although perhaps not in the absolute sense. Throughout childhood these data do not reach far from the henid stage; in adults there is always a certain process of development going on. Probably the perceptions of some plants and animals are henids. In the case of mankind the development from the henid to the completely differentiated perception and idea is always possible, although such an ideal condition may seldom be attained. Whilst expression in words is impossible in the case of the absolute henid, as words imply articulated thoughts, there are also in the highest stages of the intellect possible to man some things still unclarified and, therefore, unspeakable.

The theory of henids will help in the old quarrel between the spheres of perception and sensation, and will replace by a developmental conception the ideas of element and character which Avenarius and Petzoldt deduced from the process of clarification. It is only when the elements become distinct that they can be distinguished from the characters. Man is disposed to humours and sentimentalities only so long as the contours of his ideas are vague; when he sees things in the light instead of the dark his process of thinking will become different.

Steer clear of entropy.

You mean physical rather than intellectual/spiritual, right?

[bill]

bill:

I'd say "interested in higher consciousness? then queue here for trepanation. Too squeamish or skeptical for that? Then rise above your own ego and do something pragmattic and worthwhile - like helping others.

1. But, why? What relationship does helping others have to higher consciousness?
2. What form did/does rising above your ego take in your activities of helping others and in what form/s do you so help?

Whatever you do, don't follow the philosophy of a man who committed suicide (i.e. Weininger).

It’s apparent in your overall reply that you encourage following and not thinking since your reply merely comprises unsubstantiated assertions, as opposed to reasons. Also since, when it comes to Weininger, your greatest appreciation is for his suicide. (Oh, that to follow Weininger means to follow him right to his own end! What measure of ego is this?) So, what relationship does following have to higher consciousness?

On the merits of his thinking alone, I think Weininger was rather brilliant, myself.

What do you think of this, for instance:

Weininger:

None the less henids are things as vital as elements and characters. Each henid is an individual and can be distinguished from other henids. Later on I shall show that probably the mental data of early childhood (certainly of the first fourteen months) are all henids, although perhaps not in the absolute sense. Throughout childhood these data do not reach far from the henid stage; in adults there is always a certain process of development going on. Probably the perceptions of some plants and animals are henids. In the case of mankind the development from the henid to the completely differentiated perception and idea is always possible, although such an ideal condition may seldom be attained. Whilst expression in words is impossible in the case of the absolute henid, as words imply articulated thoughts, there are also in the highest stages of the intellect possible to man some things still unclarified and, therefore, unspeakable.

The theory of henids will help in the old quarrel between the spheres of perception and sensation, and will replace by a developmental conception the ideas of element and character which Avenarius and Petzoldt deduced from the process of clarification. It is only when the elements become distinct that they can be distinguished from the characters. Man is disposed to humours and sentimentalities only so long as the contours of his ideas are vague; when he sees things in the light instead of the dark his process of thinking will become different.

Steer clear of entropy.

You mean physical rather than intellectual/spiritual, right?

What's a 'henid'.

My greatest worry is his suicide. Genius is as genius does.

I mean intellectual/spiritual and not physical.

[Unidian]

Guys, Weininger stinks. Seriously.

Ask Dan. He doesn't care about Weininger, either.

[Leyla Shen]

Oh for crying out loud, Unidian. If I weren't enlightened, I'd be offended!

[rolls her eyes]

[Unidian]

About what? The stench that is Weininger? I'd be offended, too. In fact, I am.

I lost my Secret Enlightenment Decoder Ring the other day. I think it fell in the drain. Would you happen to have a pipe snake handy?