an entrance to the Way

[Damien]

Things are born and then they die, you are a thing, death takes away everything, your fate is to disappear, everything disappears, failure and success account to nothing, nothing escapes death and dust, life is fleeting, you are here now.

[ChaoticMelody]

Cherish what we have left of our lives.

[Kevin Solway]

What is it, exactly, that "dies"?

[Pincho Paxton]

Things are born and then they die, you are a thing, death takes away everything, your fate is to disappear, everything disappears, failure and success account to nothing, nothing escapes death and dust, life is fleeting, you are here now.

I don't believe you...

I ask... why do you believe you?..

I say... You are telling us all as though you know this information as a fact. So at least post your examples of experiments that prove this.

I believe that we wake up as soon as we die. This is based on three things...

1/ We cannot experience being dead, because to have an experience you have to be alive.
2/ We were not truly alive 1000 years ago, but we are alive now, so life has already followed non existence once already.
3/ Evolution would suggest that this world is a Virtual Reality machine anyway. Which you can doubt as much as you want. But the odds of this being a real world are less than those of it being a Virtual Reality world.

[Damien]

What is it, exactly, that "dies"?

This question comes up because you desire continuation,
you are attached to your idea of what you are,
and while this is the case, you cannot come to the fundamental point,
because self-interests are occupying your attention.

Attachment distracts the mind from it's predicament.
The fundamental point arises as the mind clears of attachment,
because without distraction you find yourself in the predicament,
and the predicament is the fundamental point.

Everything around you,
all that can be named,
it is born and then it dies,
this is the lesson taught from every angle.

Your question is not a response to this lesson,
it is a response to the fears this lesson stirs in you
because you are carrying this attachment.

To see that all things turn to dust and disappear,
and that all achievement is meaningless futility,
this destroys attachment,
and the fundamental point arises by itself.

Banging on about things without seeing this,
is just a dream.

Your question's answer just creates more questions,
that is the nature of things,
you must wear yourself out and collapse at the foot of this.
Before that happens, you will only analyze, and it is dreaming.

[Damien]

You are telling us all as though you know this information as a fact. So at least post your examples of experiments that prove this.

Everywhere, everything is being born and then it is dying.

Your three things are just keepsakes you carry because you are afraid of non-continuance, they allow you to feel eternal.

There is no reason to hold beliefs,
they only arise when fear arises,
and they only lead away from the fundamental point.

[Pincho Paxton]

Everywhere, everything is being born and then it is dying.

Not scientifically. A scientific viewpoint is that we are energy, and we are matter. A body is a billion/billion/billion things all working together. None of the billion/billion/billion things ever die. They just stop working as a team. I am not really a person, I am a hive, and my bees can go into a new hive when they want to. Our atoms, and electrons work together, and never die.

So when you say that everything is born, and then it is dying, it is like seeing the billions of things that we are made from as 1 thing. But it is never 1 thing. Interestingly, there are fish in the sea with lungs, and hearts, and internal organs that are all different creatures working together. A very strange creature to us, but in reality no different to ourselves.

[Damien]

Not scientifically. A scientific viewpoint is that we are energy, and we are matter. A body is a billion/billion/billion things all working together....

Why carry this with you?

When you wake you will see that you carried it
because it alleviated your fears.

When you have carried a zillion things like this,
and watched them all fail you,
then you will be sick from it
and you will throw it all down,
and you will not create another idea to save you,
instead you will stare your predicament in the face,
and the Way will open to you.

[Jason]

Things are born and then they die, you are a thing, death takes away everything, your fate is to disappear, everything disappears, failure and success account to nothing, nothing escapes death and dust, life is fleeting, you are here now.

Why carry this with you?

When you wake you will see that you carried it
because it alleviated your fears.

When you have carried a zillion things like this,
and watched them all fail you,
then you will be sick from it
and you will throw it all down,
and you will not create another idea to save you,
instead you will stare your predicament in the face,
and the Way will open to you.

[Damien]

Things are born and then they die, you are a thing, death takes away everything, your fate is to disappear, everything disappears, failure and success account to nothing, nothing escapes death and dust, life is fleeting, you are here now.

Why carry this with you?

When you wake you will see that you carried it
because it alleviated your fears.

The fundamental point need not be carried,
it is there when you put things down,
my words for this are just words,
words can be carried.

[Pye]

Yes, I always consider myself in capable hands from a sage with an avatar such as this. It lets me know this person is really on top of things, has his eye on the prize, really knows "an entrance to the Way . . . . "

[Boyan]

I too, took the avatar as a sign of sheer, slap -you in -the -face wisdom. Finally I thought, someone learned something from the ill manner the QRS are approached with and realized he must go about spreading wisdom by way of deception.

It must be that it serves as a disguise, to fool the unworthy ones. Kind of like what Heraclitus did, just replace the girl with the extremely condensed style of writing.

I applaud you Damien, and from now on I believe the QRS will attach pictures of attractive girls in naughty poses to their sites and posts, so that they can draw in more potential teenage students of the Way.

[Damien]

Yes, I always consider myself in capable hands from a sage with an avatar such as this. It lets me know this person is really on top of things, has his eye on the prize, really knows "an entrance to the Way . . . . "

Your interest lies not with the Way,
it lies with a celibate brainy boys club,
you follow the rules of the club,
it is ego feeding.

The avatar means nothing,
people come into the Way from all places,
this coming does not change them,
they are still who they are.

[Damien]

I too, took the avatar...

Your mind is agitated by the image,
because your mind carries much retarded sex energy,
when that hidden energy is irritated,
thoughts and words happen.

[Damien]

Cherish what we have left of our lives.

To cherish, to detest,
both these things are a waste of time,
both occur due to ego,
both require the illusion of self.

[Jamesh]

Kevin: What is it, exactly, that "dies"?
Damien: both require the illusion of self.

The self is as real as it is unreal. The illusion of self only relates to the idea of permanancy of self, but while the self exists, it is as existant, thus real, as everything else.

The self is a total slowly changing formation of causal activity coming to an outcome of consciousness. A rock is the same, but lacks the causes that produce consciousness. Like everything else it is entirely dependent on what is external to that total pattern. Admittedly there are differences between consciousness and a rock. A rock can still be a rock even when floating in deep space, and that which formed the rock does not have to be present for the rock to exist, whereas consciousness is dependent on a range of necessary causes that must be causally interacting with a person body in the present moment.

The self dies when the total set of causes that bring forth consciousness are no longer present, as the pattern of self is no longer capable of forming consciousness. It dies temporarily each night when asleep [dreaming is a different form of consciousness] and permanently when the body loses its ability to form the consciousness pattern.

Admittedly much of the sense of individuality of consciousness comes not from "a self" but from the most directly accessible causal patterns - ones bodies past experiences as recorded in memory.

[kennyvii]

Things are born and then they die, you are a thing, death takes away everything, your fate is to disappear, everything disappears, failure and success account to nothing, nothing escapes death and dust, life is fleeting, you are here now.

In my desire to survive forever I've postulated that everything is actaully a form of symbolism. That it is a sensual representation of whatever is real. "Death" may be only a form of exit or a form of logical failure necessitated by life long accepting of the symbol as the actual. I'm not convinced that when I die that I die to myself. It may be that I die to those around me but that to myself i "live" onwards.

What are the odds that sensual organisms are conscious of actual truth? How could they know anything of it? Isn't their consciousness merely what they believe mixed with what is real bleeding in through their sensual dream state. Just because your senses tell you something died or was born to life does not prove it is so.

If you believed babies were delivered by storkes you may well see storkes leaving babies but instead you see women squeezing them out of their pee holes. Personally, I think storkes is a more rational belief.

[Damien]

The self is as real as it is unreal. The illusion of self only relates to the idea of permanancy of self, but while the self exists, it is as existant, thus real, as everything else.

Real and not real are two boxes.
The self and everything else is real or not real
according to the box it has been put in by the self.
You have created two extra boxes,
these two extra boxes are the same box,
inside this box are the two original boxes.
Your new box has a more complex design,
but it is still just a box,
all three boxes are inside the dream.

The self is a total slowly changing formation of causal activity coming to an outcome of consciousness. A rock is the same, but lacks the causes that produce consciousness. Like everything else it is entirely dependent on what is external to that total pattern. Admittedly there are differences between consciousness and a rock. A rock can still be a rock even when floating in deep space, and that which formed the rock does not have to be present for the rock to exist, whereas consciousness is dependent on a range of necessary causes that must be causally interacting with a person body in the present moment.

This is not an end in itself,
your story needs infinite more story to hold it up.
To say that it is right or wrong is foolish,
but can you see that what supports it
continues endlessly in every direction?

This great mystery, the answer to it
is not a story,
it is not an explanation,
the answer is you.

The self dies when the total set of causes that bring forth consciousness are no longer present, as the pattern of self is no longer capable of forming consciousness. It dies temporarily each night when asleep [dreaming is a different form of consciousness] and permanently when the body loses its ability to form the consciousness pattern.

Anything named by the mind has a self.
The causes for consciousness that you mention,
each have their own self,
because you mention them.
To name is to apply limits to infinity,
this creates self,
this is birth.
Infinity inevitably moves to the point that
the limitations no longer apply,
this destroys self,
this is death.

Admittedly much of the sense of individuality of consciousness comes not from "a self" but from the most directly accessible causal patterns - ones bodies past experiences as recorded in memory.

Consciousness is just consciousness,
it is a name.
It belongs to the box in which it is put,
because the method of seeing it
and the seeing it itself are the same.
This is the case even when it is put
in that extra box you have made.

[Damien]

In my desire to survive forever I've postulated that everything is actaully a form of symbolism. That it is a sensual representation of whatever is real.

Your error is in seperating what you call symbolism
from what you call real,
as though there were a 'real' world behind the scenes,
and we could just go there,
like in the Matrix,
and the great mystery would be solved.

Real and not real are merely concepts,
this penetrates completely.

"Death" may be only a form of exit or a form of logical failure necessitated by life long accepting of the symbol as the actual. I'm not convinced that when I die that I die to myself. It may be that I die to those around me but that to myself i "live" onwards.

Your need for conviction on this matter
occurs due your desire for continuance.
Without the desire,
the question does not arise.
Without a question to answer,
you can see what is there.

What are the odds that sensual organisms are conscious of actual truth? How could they know anything of it? Isn't their consciousness merely what they believe mixed with what is real bleeding in through their sensual dream state.

'Their beliefs' and 'what is real' are inseperable
because the nature of real is defined by belief.

[Boyan]

I too, took the avatar...

Your mind is agitated by the image,
because your mind carries much retarded sex energy,
when that hidden energy is irritated,
thoughts and words happen.

Well, what should I do with this retarded sex energy?

[Damien]

what should I do with this retarded sex energy?

You can cease retarding your naturally occurring sex energy
by changing your relationship with sexuality itself.

Your relationship with sexuality
is coloured by your fear of it,
you hide it and you run from it,
you pretend it is not there
and you detest anything that stirs it.
This is an obsessive relationship,
it is not different to that of a lecher.

Lecher is the fate of all who engage sexuality in this way.
Engaging sexuality in this way is the fate of all lechers.
It is merely a coin with two sides,
it alternates like a pendulum.

Currently you have ideas about sexuality
that suggest it is the antithesis of spirituality,
but it is not,
it is merely sexuality,
it occurs naturally just like hunger.
When you are hungry,
you do not feel unspiritual,
you just feel hungry.

Rid yourself of these ideas,
it is the ideas that tell you to fear the energy.
The fear is what causes you to retard the energy,
it is like pushing the pendulum up one way.
When your arm gets tired,
the pendulum will swing.

To rid yourself of the ideas,
see that things are born and then they die,
see that failure and success account to nothing,
see that life is fleeting,
see that you are here now.

[Jamesh]

Your relationship with sexuality
is coloured by your fear of it,
you hide it and you run from it,
you pretend it is not there
and you detest anything that stirs it.
This is an obsessive relationship,
it is not different to that of a lecher.

Well one could say that your sexuality is that of a lecherous paedophile (or lolitaphile). Even though the girl in your avatar is not a child, she is partly dressed in a school uniform.


Does not naturally occurring sex energy have to be constrained? Can the lack of restrainst lead to a less rational obession with sex?

There is a very clever structure in your responses. What would cause a mind such as yours to brazenly sexually admire a person who in relative terms would be like a little child to you?

[Damien]

Well one could say that your sexuality is that of a lecherous paedophile (or lolitaphile). Even though the girl in your avatar is not a child, she is partly dressed in a school uniform.

The flavour of my sexuality
is entirely irrelevant
to the nature of sexuality itself.

Does not naturally occurring sex energy have to be constrained?

Constraining the energy only amplifies it,
like trying to constrain hunger,
as much as you refuse to eat and pretend you are not hungry,
the hunger just gets more and more pressing,
until you finally crack and gorge.

Constraint is oppressive.
Oppression makes the trains run on time,
but only for a short while.

Always, if you press one way,
you provide energy for the backswing,
and the swing back and forth will occur
until the energy has been depleted.

What would cause a mind such as yours to brazenly sexually admire a person who in relative terms would be like a little child to you?

It is you who has decided what
my avatar is indicative of.
You can bang that drum all day,
it is just noise.

[Jamesh]

Constraining the energy only amplifies it,
like trying to constrain hunger,
as much as you refuse to eat and pretend you are not hungry,
the hunger just gets more and more pressing,
until you finally crack and gorge.

Constraint is oppressive.
Oppression makes the trains run on time,
but only for a short while.

Always, if you press one way,
you provide energy for the backswing,
and the swing back and forth will occur
until the energy has been depleted.

Fair enough. I can't argue with that, except -if something is constrained for long enough and it will solidify, and the spring back will whither away during the time of constraint.

Still, what you say is generally true, the last para is very typical of what occurs on the stock market, which I like to view as being a sort of symbolic representation of reality.

So are you going to say anything about yourself?
Which philosopher do you beleive taught you the most? Your style is a bit like that of the Tao Te Ching, been practicing Taoism?

[Boyan]

Your relationship with sexuality
is coloured by your fear of it,
you hide it and you run from it,
you pretend it is not there
and you detest anything that stirs it.

False. Being a student of thought doesn't mean having the mentality of a medieval, body hating, Christian dogmatic.

Currently you have ideas about sexuality
that suggest it is the antithesis of spirituality,

False.

To rid yourself of the ideas,
see that things are born and then they die,
see that failure and success account to nothing,
see that life is fleeting,
see that you are here now.

Success as in achievement does count to something, although only relatively, probably. For example, if it wasn't for the scientific progress made by people who achieved success in something we wouldn't be communicating and generally life would've been much more difficult without the refrigerator, phone, transportation, hospitals etc...

If it wasn't for the success in thinking made by profound thinkers, we would've been much poorer beings.

And I am not here now, as now doesn't exist. Human beings live in the future all the time, point to the future possible events.