sexual aggression

[Nick]

Don't worry bud, I'm sure every man has made that mistake at least once in his life.

Indeed, now all I must do is treat women like silly sex toys and they will flock to me,

I'd rather you just ignore them.

for there is only one sort of woman in the world: the insecure type that flocks to the careless jerks. Genius Logic (TM) proves it.

Well like I've said before, I've yet to meet more than one man personally who strives to put truth and rationality above all else, and I'm not even sure if he does anymore.

[Nick]

Have you ever met a woman who thinks like me?

LOL.

Oh man...

Thank you for saying that. There are tears in my eyes now.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

I knew you would enjoy that response, but not this much!

[Unidian]

Dan,

It's the idea that such enjoyment has any relevance whatsoever in the context of the enormous violent crime that is rape.

That's just a red-herring you've brought to the table. I've already stated that it does not have any mitigating power over the crime that rape is. One would have to be pretty lame-brained to think that it could.

Lame-brained Indeed. But what did Rhett write?

[T]he distress [of rape] is mostly caused by her enjoying it and that being in stark contrast to how society portrays she should feel about it. A common saying in women's help groups for rape victims is "It's okay if you enjoyed it".

There it is in black and white. The greater part of the distress of rape is not caused by the nature of the crime itself, but by the fact that women "enjoyed it" and feel conflicted about that enjoyment.

Thanks for agreeing with me that Rhett's statement is "pretty lame-brained," whether you meant to or not. And you're right, it is very lame-brained indeed.

[skipair]

Unidian wants the pleasure to be only physical. He does not want to admit that it is actually the psychological component of a woman being overpowered by a man that makes the physical stimulation pleasurable. If he did that, he would have to rework his entire being and how it relates to his relationship with his girlfriend. Could she actually not be enjoying the sex as much as she could be? Does this mean I'm inadequate? Does this mean she'll leave me?

In a sense, yes.

[Dan Rowden]

That's why we don't get to hear much from women about women's drives.

We don't? I thought you QRS-clones were of the opinion that mainstream society is totally inundated by the female perspective.

This is so lame it's embarrassing. Rhett is not a QRS clone. His attitudes on this issue are his own and were held by him before he even knew us - as he has already stated.

[Dan Rowden]

I love this. The criterion for psychological health is thinking like the dolts at this forum.

LOL.

What?

[Philosophaster]

^

Well, since women and being "psychologically healthy" mix about as well as oil and water...

Evidence?

Have you ever met a woman who thinks like me?

[Dan Rowden]

Dan,

It's the idea that such enjoyment has any relevance whatsoever in the context of the enormous violent crime that is rape.

That's just a red-herring you've brought to the table. I've already stated that it does not have any mitigating power over the crime that rape is. One would have to be pretty lame-brained to think that it could.

Lame-brained Indeed. But what did Rhett write?

[T]he distress [of rape] is mostly caused by her enjoying it and that being in stark contrast to how society portrays she should feel about it. A common saying in women's help groups for rape victims is "It's okay if you enjoyed it".

There it is in black and white. The greater part of the distress of rape is not caused by the nature of the crime itself, but by the fact that women "enjoyed it" and feel conflicted about that enjoyment.

Thanks for agreeing with me that Rhett's statement is "pretty lame-brained," whether you meant to or not. And you're right, it is very lame-brained indeed.

What Rhett wrote was indeed lame-brained, as specifically stated. Should he stand by the emphasis that his wording indicates he would be continuing to be lame-brained. However, taking that false emphasis away the point has interest.

[Unidian]

Skipair,

Unidian wants the pleasure to be only physical. He does not want to admit that it is actually the psychological component of a woman being overpowered by a man that makes the physical stimulation pleasurable.

Yes, some women may find the idea of being overpowered by a man exciting as a fantasy or in a controlled situation of her own choosing. However, this does not mean they derive any enjoyment from being forcibly violated in reality, in a situation they did not choose. The very nature of fantasy and role-playing is that no matter what their content, they are still fundamentally under a person's own control. A real-life act of rape is not. That is the difference, and frankly, one would have to be a fool not to see it.

Dan,

This is so lame it's embarrassing. Rhett is not a QRS clone. His attitudes on this issue are his own and were held by him before he even knew us - as he has already stated.

Really? Okay, all I have is your word on this, because I'm not aware of the history. Are you saying that Rhett's views on women were not encouraged or influenced by you guys' stuff?

[Nick]

I love this. The criterion for psychological health is thinking like the dolts at this forum.

LOL.

Your putting words in my mouth. I was implying that thinking like me, and only me, is criterion for psychological health. However, there are a handful of others who I might use for such criterion.

[skipair]

Skip: Unidian wants the pleasure to be only physical. He does not want to admit that it is actually the psychological component of a woman being overpowered by a man that makes the physical stimulation pleasurable.

Uni: Yes, some women may find the idea of being overpowered by a man exciting as a fantasy or in a controlled situation of her own choosing. However, this does not mean they derive any enjoyment from being forcibly violated in reality, in a situation they did not choose.

How could you possibly know that?

The very nature of fantasy and role-playing is that no matter what their content, they are still fundamentally under a person's own control. A real-life act of rape is not.

Well, its under control by the rapist. And what her "safe" fantasies entail is exactly her loosing all control, and completely submitting to being taken and ravaged - mirroring a rape. In that sense, there is really not much of a distinction. Her role playing, and this applies to all women, not some, is to be raped by her partner, so that she has next to no say about what he does with her. Now if this is someone she knows and feels comfortable with, and knows that it won't leave the bedroom, its all good. If it's someone random on the street and people find out, that's not-so-good.

Nature doesn't care if it's wrong of a rapist, or if the woman might find a lot of it uncomfortable. The point is babies. And this has been going on forever. In these matters, morals don't mean a thing. Nature is blind.

[Shahrazad]

Dan,

The arguments against women enjoying rape have already been made in the sister rape thread, but for your sake, I feel the need of rehashing them here.

Women do not enjoy rape. Some women have rape fantasies, and many enjoy rough sex, but they hate being raped.

Let me give you an example. I enjoy rough sex, but I did not enjoy being raped at any level. No, not even a small part of me felt enjoyment. Is this so hard for you to believe? If so, I'll try to explain it in more detail.

If you have evidence that healthy, relatively sane women enjoy rape at any level, please present it here for all of us to see. Most women have been raped at certain point in their lives, so you should be able to find a rape victim who could come here and tell us that she enjoyed it, and why. Or, if you have a quote or a link from such a woman, that would do too.

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[Unidian]

Well, its under control by the rapist. And what her "safe" fantasies entail is exactly her loosing all control, and completely submitting to being taken and ravaged - mirroring a rape. In that sense, there is really not much of a distinction. Her role playing, and this applies to all women, not some, is to be raped by her partner, so that she has next to no say about what he does with her.

LOL, this is retarded. How do you know what all women want?

Have you ever actually been on a real honest-to-goodness date with a real life girl, of the non-inflatable variety? I ask because your perspective suggests an extensive customer history at Harry's House of Helium.

Now if this is someone she knows and feels comfortable with, and knows that it won't leave the bedroom, its all good. If it's someone random on the street and people find out, that's not-so-good.

Yeah, good going, totally leave out the entire issue of consent. That's only the whole moral crux of the issue.

Nature doesn't care if it's wrong of a rapist, or if the woman might find a lot of it uncomfortable. The point is babies. And this has been going on forever. In these matters, morals don't mean a thing. Nature is blind.

Yes, but human beings are not supposed to be.

Look up "naturalistic fallacy."

[Dan Rowden]

Skipair,

Unidian wants the pleasure to be only physical. He does not want to admit that it is actually the psychological component of a woman being overpowered by a man that makes the physical stimulation pleasurable.

Yes, some women may find the idea of being overpowered by a man exciting as a fantasy or in a controlled situation of her own choosing. However, this does not mean they derive any enjoyment from being forcibly violated in reality, in a situation they did not choose. The very nature of fantasy and role-playing is that no matter what their content, they are still fundamentally under a person's own control. A real-life act of rape is not. That is the difference, and frankly, one would have to be a fool not to see it.

I don't agree. It's a matter of degree and depth. These fantasies (and btw one is not in control in dreams unless they are lucid), which are quite common in women (as are their counterparts are in men), come from somewhere. They speak to a psychological reality and dynamic, one that is both powerful and deep. You can't escape that fact. In real life circumstances those dynamics can surface, even if only superficially, and even against one's greater will. Pretending this doesn't happen doesn't help women in my view. Acknowledging it happens and dismissing its importance I think will. It's a bit like a married person eying off other people. You think it shouldn't happen but it does. Get over it. Women who experience some form or measure of enjoyment of a psychological nature during rape should be told it's perfectly ok (just as it is with physiological enjoyment), that it doesn't change the nature of the crime.

Dan,

This is so lame it's embarrassing. Rhett is not a QRS clone. His attitudes on this issue are his own and were held by him before he even knew us - as he has already stated.

Really? Okay, all I have is your word on this, because I'm not aware of the history.

Rhett stated this in a thread, possibly this one, quite recently. It is also my personal experience, the word of which I would indeed hope you would accept.

Are you saying that Rhett's views on women were not encouraged or influenced by you guys' stuff?

No, I'm not saying that specifically; he used to be much worse ;)

[Unidian]

Dan,

Women who experience some form or measure of enjoyment of a psychological nature during rape should be told it's perfectly ok (just as it is with physiological enjoyment), that it doesn't change the nature of the crime.

And the nature of the crime, of course, is such that any potential "enjoyment" of that nature is vastly outweighed by the distinctly objectionable reality of one's fundamental human rights being violated. Any way you slice it, what Rhett claimed (that the distress of rape is caused mostly by women's "enjoyment" of the crime) is a deeply retarded thing to say. I'm glad we seem to agree on that, at least. And it would be dumb even he had said "significantly" or in some lesser quantity. The vast bulk of the distress of rape or any violent crime is the violation involved.

The nature of any "enjoyment" factor in rape is unknown to me, although I'm very skeptical that it exists in any significant portion of victims or that it has any real relevance. To even discuss such a thing is stupid, in my view.

[Dan Rowden]

Dan,

The arguments against women enjoying rape have already been made in the sister rape thread, but for your sake, I feel the need of rehashing them here.

Women do not enjoy rape.

Not as an overall experience, no, but nobody but Rhett has suggested this, and I think in hindsight he would restate his case anyway.

Some women have rape fantasies,

Many do, as do many men. i.e. they have submission/dominance fantasies.

and many enjoy rough sex, but they hate being raped.

Yep.

Let me give you an example. I enjoy rough sex, but I did not enjoy being raped at any level. No, not even a small part of me felt enjoyment. Is this so hard for you to believe? If so, I'll try to explain it in more detail.

I have no trouble believing it. But no-one has claimed this as some universal experience for women.

If you have evidence that healthy, relatively sane women enjoy rape at any level, please present it here for all of us to see.

I'll see if I can dig up some pertinent research. It will be hard to find for what are obvious reasons.

Most women have been raped at certain point in their lives,

I don't believe that. Most women will claim to have had sex they didn't necessarily want. Only a portion of that ought be considered actual rape.

so you should be able to find a rape victim who could come here and tell us that she enjoyed it, and why. Or, if you have a quote or a link from such a woman, that would do too.

As I said, I'll see what I can dig up. I have a personal anecdote to this effect but I hardly imagine it would be taken seriously.

[skipair]

Unidian,

Skip: Well, its under control by the rapist. And what her "safe" fantasies entail is exactly her loosing all control, and completely submitting to being taken and ravaged - mirroring a rape. In that sense, there is really not much of a distinction. Her role playing, and this applies to all women, not some, is to be raped by her partner, so that she has next to no say about what he does with her.

Uni: LOL, this is retarded. How do you know what all women want?

Because once you've cracked the code to one, you've cracked the code to them all. Once you figure it out, you can SEE her, and every woman knows what it feels like to be SEEN in this way. They know who knows.

Skip: Now if this is someone she knows and feels comfortable with, and knows that it won't leave the bedroom, its all good. If it's someone random on the street and people find out, that's not-so-good.

Uni: Yeah, good going, totally leave out the entire issue of consent. That's only the whole moral crux of the issue.

As I mentioned in a previous post, the trump card for me is if it starts out consensual. If it turns into highly charged (rape-like) sex, then consent basically goes out the window. Finally she's free to lose herself and scream, "God you make me feel so SEXY!!!!!!!! I LOOOOVE YOU".

Skip: Nature doesn't care if it's wrong of a rapist, or if the woman might find a lot of it uncomfortable. The point is babies. And this has been going on forever. In these matters, morals don't mean a thing. Nature is blind.

Uni: Yes, but human beings are not supposed to be.

That's the thing. It doesn't matter what they're supposed to be, it matters what they are. And what we are are creatures that sometimes reproduce through rape. It's been happening for millions of years, and while we can personally decide it is in conflict with our values (no shit), Nature still might give that woman an orgasm to increase the chance of conception (likely the orgasm's purpose).

[Dan Rowden]

The nature of any "enjoyment" factor in rape is unknown to me, although I'm very skeptical that it exists in any significant portion of victims or that it has any real relevance. To even discuss such a thing is stupid, in my view.

Well, I don't. But let's discuss something a little different then: why do we, and indeed women, consider and deeply feel rape (as defined as power trips and violations here) to be more serious than common assaults on men? I have never heard of a man being offered counselling after an assault; I certainly wasn't.

Why does this distinction exist do you think?

[Unidian]

But no-one has claimed this as some universal experience for women.

Skipair has.

[Imadrongo]

I would love to be raped by a hot, desirable woman. This is second choice to having a mutual relationship with her of course. (And preferably the rape would involve me being in control..)

I bet single women would love to be raped by hot, desirable men. They would prefer a relationship where they could derive security, money, clothes, etc from the man.

Since rape is usually conducted by people who are not desirable in this society, it is seen as a bad thing.

In a different society how desirable of guys raped you might be part of the status game for women.

[Philosophaster]

But let's discuss something a little different then: why do we, and indeed women, consider and deeply feel rape (as defined as power trips and violations here) to be more serious than common assaults on men?

Perhaps because rape and "common assault" are not the same thing. If a man were raped, on the other hand, there would certainly be counseling available for him.

[Unidian]

Well, I don't. But let's discuss something a little different then: why do we, and indeed women, consider and deeply feel rape (as defined as power trips and violations here) to be more serious than common assaults on men? I have never heard of a man being offered counselling after an assault; I certainly wasn't.

Are you kidding?

Not to be rude, but I'm at a loss to explain how you are asking this question. How could we not see rape as more serious than "common assaults?" It's a far more serious crime for reasons that ought to be glaringly obvious - and this includes rape against men, BTW.

[Imadrongo]

But let's discuss something a little different then: why do we, and indeed women, consider and deeply feel rape (as defined as power trips and violations here) to be more serious than common assaults on men? I have never heard of a man being offered counselling after an assault; I certainly wasn't.

Why does this distinction exist do you think?

Because we have feelings, which are delusional. I hope you don't have feelings Dan, or you are going down a notch on my sage-o-meter.

A good question might be -- why do we "feel" wrong to rape a creature that lacks consciousness. Women basically ask for it the way they dress anyways -- cause and effect. ;) If the Totality causes me to rape someone, oh well?

[Unidian]

I would love to be raped by a hot, desirable woman. This is second choice to having a mutual relationship with her of course. (And preferably the rape would involve me being in control..)

LOL... there is no such thing as a rape where you are in control.

Seriously, holy blueberry bat shit. What planet are some of you guys from?

[Shahrazad]

Dan,

I have no trouble believing it. But no-one has claimed this as some universal experience for women.

I know you haven't claimed that, but this is why I gave a specific example of someone who prefers rough sex (which is certainly not universal). It seems to me that if anybody at all would be inclined to enjoy rape, a person with those sexual prefeences would. But there's a fundamental reason why she cannot enjoy it.

Or am I missing something obvious here?

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