Post Enlightenment...

[1ntel]

This seems to be the point where a true Sage loses all purpose. How could it be any other way. What's left? (Nothing?)

[TheChessPlayer]

what enlightens me most is chess

[Imadrongo]

Sage feels like the most superior man on earth. Sage looks down on all the delusional (everyone but himself) and tries to spread his infinite wisdom for completely non-egotistic reasons.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

1ntel: when all delusions have been destroyed, only truth remains. That is enlightenment. So long as you are deluded, there is no effective way to judge what lack of delusion is like. Some concepts that you currently believe to be true will turn out to be false: these false concepts cannot be used to judge enlightenment.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Neil: why would a man without delusions look up to a man steeped in delusions?

[Pincho Paxton]

This seems to be the point where a true Sage loses all purpose. How could it be any other way. What's left? (Nothing?)

It's true. I agree.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Neil wrote:

Sage feels like the most superior man on earth. Sage looks down on all the delusional (everyone but himself) and tries to spread his infinite wisdom for completely non-egotistic reasons.

A sage is able to judge behavior as inferior without feeling any sort of egotistical emotional reward. And he spreads wisdom because it is the most important thing one can do. He values rationality in others because others are merely an extension of oneself, and the more people that are rational, the better the world will be, as people will live lives with greater depth and clarity.

Intel wrote:

This seems to be the point where a true Sage loses all purpose. How could it be any other way. What's left? (Nothing?)

Being concerned that ones daily habits are aligned with wisdom are important, and keeping current on the state of affairs globally is important, and the promotion of wisdom is very important.

[Pincho Paxton]

Being concerned that ones daily habits are aligned with wisdom are important, and keeping current on the state of affairs globally is important, and the promotion of wisdom is very important.

I don't think that these things will feed him however, and he will start to behave like a caged animal, pacing up, and down, and eventually going mad.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Pincho,

I don't think that these things will feed him however, and he will start to behave like a caged animal, pacing up, and down, and eventually going mad.

It doesn't sound like you are describing Buddha, Socrates, or Lao Tzu.

Maybe you aren't talking about enlightenment, but mania?

[Ryan Rudolph]

I don't think that these things will feed him however, and he will start to behave like a caged animal, pacing up, and down, and eventually going mad.

Yes, basic survival must also be secured. However, a sage doesn’t invest too much energy into such things, he lacks the typical level of ambition of mediocre men. And I would say that a life of wisdom is the cure for madness, not the cause.

[Pincho Paxton]

Pincho,

I don't think that these things will feed him however, and he will start to behave like a caged animal, pacing up, and down, and eventually going mad.

It doesn't sound like you are describing Buddha, Socrates, or Lao Tzu.

Maybe you aren't talking about enlightenment, but mania?

They died! Sorry, I thought we were talking about a truly enlightened person, who knows how to end the ageing process. I was reffering to mankind in about 500 years time.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Pincho, I think you are conflating enlightenment and immortality.

[Pincho Paxton]

Pincho, I think you are conflating enlightenment and immortality.

Well mankind is so close to knowing how to stop the aging process now, that I include that as part of all knowledge. I guess I am on the wrong track.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Enlightenment is not magic. The perfection of wisdom is not omniscience. The destruction of all delusions and the understanding of truth is simple, not complex.

[Pincho Paxton]

Enlightenment is not magic. The perfection of wisdom is not omniscience. The destruction of all delusions and the understanding of truth is simple, not complex.

Ok. So it's just a person who has no false beliefs, and a lot of knowledge, and you can always trust their oppinion. I've never used the word Sage before. I thought it was ALL knowledge.

[Dan Rowden]

This seems to be the point where a true Sage loses all purpose. How could it be any other way. What's left? (Nothing?)

Purpose does not end with wisdom, only deluded attachment to it. You may also want to read this short dialogue from Genius News: Link

[Pincho Paxton]

This seems to be the point where a true Sage loses all purpose. How could it be any other way. What's left? (Nothing?)

Purpose does not end with wisdom, only deluded attachment to it. You may also want to read this short dialogue from Genius News: Link

How can anyone possibly believe this??? ...

If enlightenment involves the realization that everything lacks inherent existence, including truth itself, then why does the sage continue to promote truth after his enlightenment?

It's possibly even worse than the belief in God.

[Dan Rowden]

I haven't read all your posts, but it's no good good just asserting this, You have to provide reasons. And "God" is just a word, it can mean almost anything; for Spinoza, for example, it meant the same as Nature. Is that delusional?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Pincho,

Ok. So it's just a person who has no false beliefs, and a lot of knowledge, and you can always trust their oppinion.

You are bungling a few ideas here.

It is accurate that an enlightened person has no false beliefs, by definition. An opinion, however, is different than a belief: an opinion is a moral judgement, whereas a belief is a statement of fact about reality.

Perfect wisdom is different than "lots of knowledge". Although having some knowledge is necessary to wisdom, accumulating vast databases of knowledge is not essential. To be wise, one merely needs to be able to tell true from false. This means that one knows how to discern truth in the first place.

To tie this together:

For instance, if I claim, "many historians consider the assassination of Franz Ferdinand to be the event that caused the First World War", I am stating a fact. This is a belief that can be true or false. It is not an opinion, although it is about the opinions of many historians. This is also a piece of knowledge. Knowing how to tell if it is true or false -- or if it is important to know whether it is true or false -- is the job of wisdom.

[Pincho Paxton]

Pincho,

Ok. So it's just a person who has no false beliefs, and a lot of knowledge, and you can always trust their oppinion.

You are bungling a few ideas here.

It is accurate that an enlightened person has no false beliefs, by definition. An opinion, however, is different than a belief: an opinion is a moral judgement, whereas a belief is a statement of fact about reality.

Perfect wisdom is different than "lots of knowledge". Although having some knowledge is necessary to wisdom, accumulating vast databases of knowledge is not essential. To be wise, one merely needs to be able to tell true from false. This means that one knows how to discern truth in the first place.

To tie this together:

For instance, if I claim, "many historians consider the assassination of Franz Ferdinand to be the event that caused the First World War", I am stating a fact. This is a belief that can be true or false. It is not an opinion, although it is about the opinions of many historians. This is also a piece of knowledge. Knowing how to tell if it is true or false -- or if it is important to know whether it is true or false -- is the job of wisdom.

Do you mean to instantly know if something is true or false, or to take a year to decide? I would say take as long as you want, because the brain stores a strenght value, and then either increases its value, or decreases its value. And a true sage would have to make the best use of their brain.

[Imadrongo]

Ryan,

A sage is able to judge behavior as inferior without feeling any sort of egotistical emotional reward.

Not possible. Judging as inferior is saying that you are better than them.

And he spreads wisdom because it is the most important thing one can do.

I try to analyze this from a sage's perspective and I really can't see how it is important other than to alleviate his boredom or to gain followers and power. He realizes there is no purpose to life so why should he be concerned with others realizing this? He has no vested interest in anything.

He values rationality in others because others are merely an extension of oneself, and the more people that are rational, the better the world will be, as people will live lives with greater depth and clarity.

The more rationality the less suffering and the closer to his goal of universal peace. Wasn't this already debunked in the thread on violence?

[1ntel]

Trevor wrote:

when all delusions have been destroyed, only truth remains. That is enlightenment.

Yes, but what can be accomplish with this? The truth is known, emotions are non-existent, other peoples ignorance is disgusting...There's no pleasure, no pain, no motivation -- Only plain and simple naked existence, or non-existence, if that turns out to be the case.

So long as you are deluded, there is no effective way to judge what lack of delusion is like.

I feel like I've spent my entire life deluding myself for the sole purpose of fake enjoyment.

Some concepts that you currently believe to be true will turn out to be false

For others this is true and for yourself Trevor, this is absolutely false, what is it? (Even when it comes to believing in the Christian God, I'm convinced that most Christians know it isn't real, but they chose to live in their delusion, for whatever deluded reason--There's a difference between willingly pretending something is real and knowing (without doubt) something is real. I'm sure most Christians wouldn't put their life on the line, in the name a God.) So tell me, what do most people in their deludedness think is absolutely false, but in reality is absolutely true?

[Ryan Rudolph]

Neil,

Not possible. Judging as inferior is saying that you are better than them.

Yes, but one points to another's delusions and errors in reasoning so that they can be at the same level. It is not an ego-centered activity, it is an ego-destroying activity.

I try to analyze this from a sage's perspective and I really can't see how it is important other than to alleviate his boredom or to gain followers and power. He realizes there is no purpose to life so why should he be concerned with others realizing this? He has no vested interest in anything.

It is important because a sage’s mind is not violent, confused, dopey, dull, hypocritical, frightened, addicted to excitement, bored, addicted to all sorts of thought patterns, and all the rest of it. His mind bathes in reality, which is the highest form of spiritual attainment.

Boredom implies that one is addicted to some experience that is exciting, however if one is not getting anything out of the exchange as far as emotions are concerned, then it is impossible to feel bored due to posting here.

[Imadrongo]

Ryan,

NM: Not possible. Judging as inferior is saying that you are better than them.

RR: Yes, but one points to another's delusions and errors in reasoning so that they can be at the same level. It is not an ego-centered activity, it is an ego-destroying activity.

Does ego-destroying comfort the sage's ego? It is basically impossible to act non-selfishly. Even wanting to be non-selfish -- doing so is for your own desire. And it is impossible to do the opposite of what you want to do unless you want to.

NM: I try to analyze this from a sage's perspective and I really can't see how it is important other than to alleviate his boredom or to gain followers and power. He realizes there is no purpose to life so why should he be concerned with others realizing this? He has no vested interest in anything.

RR: It is important because a sage’s mind is not violent, confused, dopey, dull, hypocritical, frightened, addicted to excitement, bored, addicted to all sorts of thought patterns, and all the rest of it.

That list of stuff has nothing to do with why the sage thinks it is important to spread wisdom, even for it's survival.

RR: His mind bathes in reality, which is the highest form of spiritual attainment.

His mind bathes in nothingness with no desires, hopes, emotions, feelings, interest, or even reason (according to David in the later stages sages have no use for reasoning). His mind is like a rock, not meaning it is strong so much as it is non-living -- in the ideal case at least, which makes this whole quest a will against life.

[1ntel]

Thanks Dan.

David Quinn: Precisely because he continues to value truth. You have to keep in mind that the sage, like everyone else, has to value something. It is impossible to stop valuing altogether. Valuing one thing at the expense of another is part and parcel of having a mind. Even to value nothing at all is form of valuing something.

To me enlightenment (perfection-something not totally attainable-which means unattainable), is the realization that it's all meaningless. In that, there's reason for everything, but it's all connected and on a fixed path. This to me means life loses all purpose. This is why I feel people intentionally delude themselves to feel as if they're in-control.

How do I rid myself of delusion (LOL)-->I think I'd disappear if I did this!

No really, how? (It's unaskable and it's unanswerable!!!!!!)