What kind of God are you talking about? A conscious being?brokenhead wrote:You can't prove God exists by rational means. If it were possible, it would have been done long ago. Preponderance of evidence strongly suggests He does.
So let's imagine that everything was created by a conscious being. Then who created that conscious being?brokenhead wrote:That anything exists.
Why not? Something tells me you have had this exchange before. If I allow what you just wrote, then in fact we have a proof that God does not exist. But what you wrote is merely an assertion.If that conscious being does not require a creator, then nor does existence.
It resolves otherwise unknowable phenomenona. If a self-aware being - man - arose out of the primordial muck, how do you account for it? How do you account for any life? With nothing pulling, or pushing, chemical elements into more and more complex molecules, then organisms with cells and organanelles, finally into beings with organs and souls, why did it happen? And do you account for souls? Is there nothing present in a human and later, inevitably, absent in that human's corpse?So imagining the existence of a conscious creator-being doesn't actually get us anywhere.
Because if we say that a conscious being (God) can be uncaused then we have thereby relaxed the rules that a thing requires a cause. And if we relax the rule that a thing requires a cause then it is not required that existence has a cause.brokenhead wrote:Why not?If that conscious being does not require a creator, then nor does existence.
And I say look around you for good reasons.You could argue that some things require a cause while other's don't require a cause, but you would need a very good reason to do so. You would need to specify exactly why existence requires a cause, and also exactly why a particular conscious being (God) doesn't require a cause.
Of course it doesn't fetch anything, because it's not possible. I totally agree.Proving God's existence in a puritan way is simply a waste of investment. It doesn't fetch anything.
Sorry, I am tuning a diffrent note.
If you think that there are good reasons why "existence" needs a cause, then why do you think there aren't the same good reasons for why the existence of a conscious God-being also needs a cause?I say look around you for good reasons.
All things require a cause, full stop.brokenhead wrote:All things require a cause or nothing does?
I am in no way convinced of that. I'll give you all things which a human being can fully comprehend require a cause. Any thing that does not fall into that category is an "elsewhere" to human thought and there is no logical need to require laws of causality to hold in that elsewhere.All things require a cause, full stop.
Are you using "existence" as a synonym for "reality?" Infinite in what way, temporal or spatial? Or both? What about nonexistence? You are saying nonexistence is nonexsitent. That's a logical contradiction, is it not?Once you realize that "existence" is not a thing, but is in fact Infinite, then you realize that it cannot have a cause (because there is nothing other than "existence").
I agree 100%. We're not trying to prove God exists - we are examining the evidence.DFBatosee wrote:I try to be logical if at all possible but this really cant be one of those times. The only way to truly say God is real is by faith. he cant be proved or disproved it is by faith you believe or don't believe in his existence.
I'm just saying. Not trying to make an argument.
Yes,that's right.Kevin Solway wrote:Because if we say that a conscious being (God) can be uncaused then we have thereby relaxed the rules that a thing requires a cause. And if we relax the rule that a thing requires a cause then it is not required that existence has a cause.brokenhead wrote:Why not?If that conscious being does not require a creator, then nor does existence.
You could argue that some things require a cause while other things don't require a cause, but you would need a very good reason to do so. You would need to specify exactly why existence requires a cause, and also exactly why a particular conscious being (God) doesn't require a cause.
Yes. Existence is whatever exists, and reality is made up of all that exists.brokenhead wrote:Are you using "existence" as a synonym for "reality?"Once you realize that "existence" is not a thing, but is in fact Infinite, then you realize that it cannot have a cause (because there is nothing other than "existence").
Infinite in the sense that there is nothing other than it.Infinite in what way, temporal or spatial? Or both?
Tell me exactly what "nonexistence" is and I'll tell you whether it is existent or not.What about nonexistence? You are saying nonexistence is nonexistent. That's a logical contradiction, is it not?
If I said that God was a square circle, or something else that is logically impossible, then faith doesn't come into it.DFBatosee wrote:The only way to truly say God is real is by faith. he cant be proved or disproved it is by faith you believe or don't believe in his existence.
The concept of zero.Tell me exactly what "nonexistence" is and I'll tell you whether it is existent or not.
Such is not the case with the Christian God.Such a thing is logically impossible, and that is that.
Such is the case with the Christian God.
That obviously exists as you can talk about it and utilise it in math.brokenhead wrote:The concept of zero.Tell me exactly what "nonexistence" is and I'll tell you whether it is existent or not.
Infinite in the sense that there is nothing other than it.
An example of what?brokenhead wrote:So existence isInfinite in the sense that there is nothing other than it.
Yet I just gave you an example!
Not only is there no proof that God exists, but there's not even any reason to think there might be one. And even if there were a conscious creator-God it doesn't answer anything for us from a philosophical or spiritual point of view, because the question of where God comes from and why he does what he does remains unanswered.Here I am trying to use logic to prove that God exists, when I already admitted that no such proof was possible.
If a conscious God being existed, would he have a sense of wonder? I doubt it. So would that be a fault on his part?Where the hell is your sense of wonder?
There could be a conscious alien creator being (God), out there somewhere, and he could be either good or evil. It's just that there's no reason to think that there is any such being.What do you gain by denying the existence of a God?
It sounds like you don't understand anything about evolution.How could the evolutionarily emerging species of man know beforehand to evolve in a direction in which he would eventually be able abstractly to predict the behavior of light? Maxwell's equations. Just one thing on our preponderance scales.
Stop right there. How can you have existence without nonexistence? The concept cannot have meaning without duality, no concept can. I can define nonexistence as that which does not belong to the set of things that exist. If you are relying on logic, stay within its bounds. If you are saying nonexistence is just a concept, then so must existence be.Anything that exists is part of existence.
How did the genes get there in the first place? Magic?It sounds like you don't understand anything about evolution.
Things evolve in any direction which helps them to pass their genes onto the next generation. Conscious intelligence, such as we have, gives us an advantage (in the short-term at least) to pass on our genes. That's all there is to it. If our intelligence doesn't prove to be an advantage in the long-term, with regard to survival, then we will go extinct.
Aren't you just the life of the party? How about feeling wonder about something you don't understand fully? No wait, don't tell me, there isn't anything you don't understand fully, correct?There's no point in feeling wonder about things that you understand fully. It's a bit like feeling wonder at a magic trick when you know exactly how the trick is done.
