Hating the Self

[Nick]

Along my spiritual journey I have grown to expose the ego's different aspects at different times. I first started exposing aspects of it such as envy, anger, lust, and greed. All of which have been eliminated or greatly reduced. Now I'm begining to expose the one aspect that seems to be the hardest to eliminate, pride. I think it is hardest to eliminate because it can sneak up on you quickly and unexpectedly. You can usually anticapte the other aspects of the ego, but pride seems to be much more subtle. Sometimes it's so sneaky you don't even realize you have experienced it and made actions in this diluted state of mind before it's too late. Oh how much I hate the ego then! I am left with the guilt of knowing I was not only irrational, but dishonest as well. What a bitch pride is! Now I know more clearly than ever what Jesus meant when he said this:

"Unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. Those who love their life will lose it, while those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be." John 12: 24

So I continue killing my self...

[Wild Fox Zen]

are you suppressing these sins or investigating them?

[Nick]

What I'm doing is attempting to destroy any and all traces of my ego, which is the cause of all these sins. If you are wondering how I manage them, I would say I usually investigate them by logically deducing them to the point where they have been exposed as the fruit of delusion. Still I sometimes fall victim to my ego and act within a deluded state of mind, only to recognize my ignorance upon further reflection. Although I never supress any of these things by ignoring or pusing them to the side never to be dealt with. My ego always gets deal with one way or another.

[Carl G]

Along my spiritual journey I have grown to expose the ego's different aspects at different times. I first started exposing aspects of it such as envy, anger, lust, and greed. All of which have been eliminated or greatly reduced.

Those are not aspects of the ego, but instead are emotions or character weaknesses supported by the ego.

Oh how much I hate the ego then!

Ha! You said your anger has been eliminated or greatly reduced.

So I continue killing my self...

Good Gravy, man, don't make the mistake of thinking your ego is your self!

[Nick]

Those are not aspects of the ego, but instead are emotions or character weaknesses supported by the ego.

That's what I meant, they are all manifestations of the ego. Without the ego there would be nothing for these things to set their roots in and grow.

Ha! You said your anger has been eliminated or greatly reduced.

Indeed it has, although the hate I experience towards my ego is also born out of delusion I don't bother to deduce it because at this point in time it is a healthy form of hate. It is a beneficial hate I can use to my advantage in eliminating the ego more effectively.

Good Gravy, man, don't make the mistake of thinking your ego is your self!

I was saying that in accordance with the quote by Jesus where he refered to the ego as the self. I thought it was obvious that I also meant ego when I said that too. I think it can be beneficial to refer to the ego as the self because most people will sware up and down that the ego is the self.

[Tim]

You should have pride in yourself man! A man aint nothing without his pride but a wo-man. Women folk aint got no pride so they live off men folk and don't make nothing of they're selves. men are insipred to greatness by they're rightful pride in being men! A man's got to be right cause he's a man, not no henid filled woman. A woman don't gotta be right cause she's just a woman. If you aint got no pride, you aint no man.

[Nick]

Pride is completely irrational. All my actions are ultimately only done through me, not by me. Once you come to realize this you will understand there is nothing to take pride in.

[Tim]

Only men, true men at least, have the toughness, born out of their egotistic competitiveness, to endure the intense agonies of the true philosophic life.

* Since writing this essay back in 1987 my views have changes somewhat. I am
no longer of the opinion that woman's lack of consciousness is due
overwhelmingly to her upbringing, but now consider her genetic inheritence to
play a much larger part. - K.S. 1995

http://www.theabsolute.net/minefield/poison.html#wom

You're a man Nick. That makes you better than any woman and it's something to be proud of.

[David Quinn]

Do you have anything to offer this place, apart from monotonous low-grade satire?

-

[Carl G]

CG: Those are not aspects of the ego, but instead are emotions or character weaknesses supported by the ego.

NT: That's what I meant, they are all manifestations of the ego.

That's not what I said. I disagree that "envy, anger, lust, and greed" are aspects or manifestations of the ego. I think you give the ego more dominion than it actually has.

Without the ego there would be nothing for these things to set their roots in and grow.

Spot on, and that is quite different from saying these things are product of the ego.

CG: Ha! You said your anger has been eliminated or greatly reduced.

NT: Indeed it has, although the hate I experience towards my ego is also born out of delusion I don't bother to deduce it because at this point in time it is a healthy form of hate.

Is there really a healthy form of hate? Can a negative emotion be a positive? For a sage or sage-to-be? I would say perhaps at first, but surely there is a more constructive way to motivate yourself. Focusing upon what you want, for example.

It is a beneficial hate I can use to my advantage in eliminating the ego more effectively.

Do you really think you can eliminate the ego? Or do you mean reduce the negative effect of the ego or it's control over you?

CG: Good Gravy, man, don't make the mistake of thinking your ego is your self!

NT: I think it can be beneficial to refer to the ego as the self because most people will sware up and down that the ego is the self.

What do you care what "most people will sware"? How is it helpful to you to refer to the ego as the self?

I wonder, can one ever free oneself of the ego without transferring one's allegience to an other, objective, impartial perspective/self (yes, such as it is, ultimately non-inherent)?

Btw, I think it would help you to work on being more specific in your writing (and necessarily then, in your thinking, especially regarding definitions).

[Leah]

So I continue killing my self...

I assume that you are probably very set in your ideas, Nick, being so full of piss and vinegar and showiness... and to even get a gist of what I will be talking about you would need to deliberately loosen your grip on your convictions, which would mean you would need to be less scared, which would mean you would need to trust existence more... and trusting existence is just about the most difficult thing to persuade someone to do. So that said, let us get this circus over with...

Your big brave fight against your self is pride occurring, that is why you mention it here, to extend it beyond yourself, to garner yourself an audience, a witness to your greatness.

You cannot see it at this stage, but pride is the wind in your sails regards your fight against yourself. There is no reason to fight... you hate this idea because you want to fight, your whole 'spiritual path' is about pride. But in truth, you shouldn't be fighting at all, your mind will forever fight back if you fight it, of course it will, what else is it going to do? Where does it have to run?

If you hate your self, you teach yourself hate, and it will hate you and fight you back, your relationship with it will forever be in turmoil, you will never be enlightened in this way. If you are calm and loving with your self, you teach yourself calm and love, your relationship with it will become less and less windy and chaotic, and you will find yourself in a space in which your previous war-brained desire chasing will seem like such folly... you will see that you did not want the truth then, you just wanted to be fighting, winning, feeling brave and proud etc. At this stage you don't consider this idea too heavily, because you are not seeking to become enlightened really, you are seeking a sense of self-satisfaction, you are seeking pride. If enlightenment fell upon you, you wouldn't recognise it, you would fight it and hate it etc. This happens in every moment.

'The Fight' is just the spiritual path hi-jacked by fear, and set to run in circles. Fear of what? Fear of letting go. What is 'letting go'? Letting go is dropping your conceptions, dropping your self, dropping the mind. If you drop the mind you can see the mind. If you grip to the mind, you cannot see it, you are too busy being it.

To be hateful of the self is just to be reacting to a desire, in your case, the desire to be enlightened... you are not enlightened, so you hate your self for not being enlightened. This is very stupid, this is being a silly emotional human with a bunch of wants, it is no different from hating yourself for not being pretty enough... people want to be pretty so they are admired, same in this case, you wish to be admired also, so you hate whatever you think robs you of that admiration. You will know you have turned to the true path when you see that to do these things, to hate the self and so forth, to cluck on about your brave fight etc, is to be nattering about spirituality while still being lost in the game, chasing loves and fleeing hates like a blind animal.

To use hate to try to clean the mind is like using shit to clean shit off a wall.

When you are truly ready for the spiritual path, the wind will fall from your sails, and all your hopes will fade away. Your fight will leave you, as winning will be of less importance to you. When your love for pride leaves you, then you will have a chance of seeing that enlightenment is not about winning or losing any battle.

My advice for you is to practice being disillusioned and confused. For this is what you are, anyway, and there is no use in lying to yourself about it. In letting yourself admit to it, you will find it less and less scary, and without that fear energy bullying you around, you may be able to move on from this hole.

[Wild Fox Zen]

wouldn't it be better if he just exhausted himself? kierkegaard said that truth only reveals itself in the gaps of our effort; the more effort you exert, the longer the gap is in between recovery.

exert yourself to your limits, hit bottom. it won't make you more enlightened, but it might lay you out long enough for the insights to pour in. i would say this is clearly the monastic path Nick has chosen.

[David Quinn]

Exhaust your human consciousness and allow your inherent animal consciousness to come flooding in.

-

[David Quinn]

Leah wrote:

'The Fight' is just the spiritual path hi-jacked by fear, and set to run in circles. Fear of what? Fear of letting go. What is 'letting go'? Letting go is dropping your conceptions, dropping your self, dropping the mind.

Trying to let go of these things is itself a form of fear.

If you drop the mind you can see the mind.

What mind?

Why are you creating all these non-existent problems for Nick?

-

[Diebert van Rhijn]

If you drop the mind you can see the mind.

Such statements often refer to meditative techniques that can create the appearance of observing a 'flow of thoughts' or 'witnessing the actor'. While it can be helpful on the path of self-inquiry it's often forgotten that this is just another mirage. It's an artificial position created like using fire to fight fire. But no mind is really dropped nor is any mind really seen. It can help to increase attention but the price that is paid is having created a false position which is just another possible and quite comfortable nest for egotism to arise.

[Nick]

That's not what I said. I disagree that "envy, anger, lust, and greed" are aspects or manifestations of the ego. I think you give the ego more dominion than it actually has.

The same way a plant is a manifestation of a seed, soil, water, and sunlight, so to is delusion of the mind a manifestation of ego. Not just my own ego, but the egos of every person on this planet. My ego is the seed, my family and friends ego's are the soil, every other person's ego is the water, and all the ignorance in the world is the sunlight. The result, plants of delusion growing out of every single crack and crevice in society. If anything I have not given the ego enough credit for how large its dominion actually is.

Is there really a healthy form of hate? Can a negative emotion be a positive? For a sage or sage-to-be? I would say perhaps at first, but surely there is a more constructive way to motivate yourself. Focusing upon what you want, for example.

It depends on your goals. I'm using emotions to assist me in defeating my ego. It's the same way a football player would use emotion to assist himself in defeating his opponent. Either way me, and the football player are both focusing on what we want, and using every advantage we can.

Do you really think you can eliminate the ego? Or do you mean reduce the negative effect of the ego or it's control over you?

Well I don't want to only reduce it's control over me, I want to completely and entirely eliminate it's control over me. Do I think this is possible? Yes.

What do you care what "most people will sware"?

For the same reasons Socrates, Jesus, Buddha, and the admins of this forum care about what other people would sware on or about. Which is not the elimination of one's own ignorance, but the elimination of other's ignorance as well. Ultimately others are part of your self as well.

How is it helpful to you to refer to the ego as the self?

In the begining stages of one's spiritual journey its good because the teachings given to them are taken more personally. At least this was the case with me.

I wonder, can one ever free oneself of the ego without transferring one's allegience to an other, objective, impartial perspective/self (yes, such as it is, ultimately non-inherent)?

I'm attempting to transfer my allegiance from the ego to wisdom and Absolute Truth.

[Nick]

I assume that you are probably very set in your ideas, Nick, being so full of piss and vinegar and showiness... and to even get a gist of what I will be talking about you would need to deliberately loosen your grip on your convictions, which would mean you would need to be less scared, which would mean you would need to trust existence more... and trusting existence is just about the most difficult thing to persuade someone to do. So that said, let us get this circus over with...

Your big brave fight against your self is pride occurring, that is why you mention it here, to extend it beyond yourself, to garner yourself an audience, a witness to your greatness.

You cannot see it at this stage, but pride is the wind in your sails regards your fight against yourself. There is no reason to fight... you hate this idea because you want to fight, your whole 'spiritual path' is about pride. But in truth, you shouldn't be fighting at all, your mind will forever fight back if you fight it, of course it will, what else is it going to do? Where does it have to run?

If you hate your self, you teach yourself hate, and it will hate you and fight you back, your relationship with it will forever be in turmoil, you will never be enlightened in this way. If you are calm and loving with your self, you teach yourself calm and love, your relationship with it will become less and less windy and chaotic, and you will find yourself in a space in which your previous war-brained desire chasing will seem like such folly... you will see that you did not want the truth then, you just wanted to be fighting, winning, feeling brave and proud etc. At this stage you don't consider this idea too heavily, because you are not seeking to become enlightened really, you are seeking a sense of self-satisfaction, you are seeking pride. If enlightenment fell upon you, you wouldn't recognise it, you would fight it and hate it etc. This happens in every moment.

'The Fight' is just the spiritual path hi-jacked by fear, and set to run in circles. Fear of what? Fear of letting go. What is 'letting go'? Letting go is dropping your conceptions, dropping your self, dropping the mind. If you drop the mind you can see the mind. If you grip to the mind, you cannot see it, you are too busy being it.

To be hateful of the self is just to be reacting to a desire, in your case, the desire to be enlightened... you are not enlightened, so you hate your self for not being enlightened. This is very stupid, this is being a silly emotional human with a bunch of wants, it is no different from hating yourself for not being pretty enough... people want to be pretty so they are admired, same in this case, you wish to be admired also, so you hate whatever you think robs you of that admiration. You will know you have turned to the true path when you see that to do these things, to hate the self and so forth, to cluck on about your brave fight etc, is to be nattering about spirituality while still being lost in the game, chasing loves and fleeing hates like a blind animal.

To use hate to try to clean the mind is like using shit to clean shit off a wall.

When you are truly ready for the spiritual path, the wind will fall from your sails, and all your hopes will fade away. Your fight will leave you, as winning will be of less importance to you. When your love for pride leaves you, then you will have a chance of seeing that enlightenment is not about winning or losing any battle.

My advice for you is to practice being disillusioned and confused. For this is what you are, anyway, and there is no use in lying to yourself about it. In letting yourself admit to it, you will find it less and less scary, and without that fear energy bullying you around, you may be able to move on from this hole.

I can't even begin to address this due to how badly you have misunderstood me and everything I've said. I'm honestly sorry I have nothing to offer you in return.

[Nick]

wouldn't it be better if he just exhausted himself? kierkegaard said that truth only reveals itself in the gaps of our effort; the more effort you exert, the longer the gap is in between recovery.

exert yourself to your limits, hit bottom. it won't make you more enlightened, but it might lay you out long enough for the insights to pour in. i would say this is clearly the monastic path Nick has chosen.

Are you suggesting I do what Weinenger did?

[Faust]

There's nothing wrong with pride and fearlessness, and your ego problem, the way to solve the 'kill or be killed' problem is to recognize other people's egos and to develop your superego. yes honesty is important, but you should always remember the animal side of man, and so despise yourself a little bit, but not to the point of destroying yourself. Then, forget about all this enlightenment stuff I'll just reduce it to the most basic terms of it right here (in no particular order).

1. the noble soul has reverence for itself (at all times)
2. you have no one to prove yourself to, except maybe yourself and in private.
3. it's always important to hide your suffering, and not let it show to other strangers who will compound it
4. always be fearless in the social world, whether walking into a room, down a lecture hall, etc.. don't constantly bring your head up and down up and down, look straight and lose your social anxiety.
5. honesty is important
6. never be jealous, envious...
7. confidence is contagious.

[BMcGilly07]

I've been misreading the following quote of Jesus for some time:

"Unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. Those who love their life will lose it, while those who hate their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be." John 12: 24

He says here that unless a seed of wheat dies by being planted into the earth and thus lose it's 'self,' it cannot fulfill it's potential, cannot become the wheat plant. If the seed were to forestall its downgoing, preserving itself in its present state, it would truly die out, rotting away to oblivion. Fulfilling its potential it finds eternal life in furthering its existence through future selves which are dependent upon its death. Thus where the seed that is Jesus is, persists through his sacrifice in future selves invested with his wisdom.

[Nick]

There's nothing wrong with pride and fearlessness, and your ego problem, the way to solve the 'kill or be killed' problem is to recognize other people's egos and to develop your superego. yes honesty is important, but you should always remember the animal side of man, and so despise yourself a little bit, but not to the point of destroying yourself. Then, forget about all this enlightenment stuff I'll just reduce it to the most basic terms of it right here (in no particular order).

1. the noble soul has reverence for itself (at all times)
2. you have no one to prove yourself to, except maybe yourself and in private.
3. it's always important to hide your suffering, and not let it show to other strangers who will compound it
4. always be fearless in the social world, whether walking into a room, down a lecture hall, etc.. don't constantly bring your head up and down up and down, look straight and lose your social anxiety.
5. honesty is important
6. never be jealous, envious...
7. confidence is contagious.

I began understanding and reflecting all of those things by the time I was 16. Still it's good to know you recognize those qualities and characteristics to be indicative of someone with a potentially honest and noble character.

I think you might have also misunderstood the insight I was offering into my spiritual trials and tribulations. What I'm saying is that I'm upset there is still enough ego in me to feed my emotions, pride in particular. I singled out pride because for me it's the hardest to recognize and logically deduce compared to other emotions that might arise. What bothers me most about it is when I look back on my thoughts or actions that occur within this prideful(diluted) state of mind, and see how my behavior reflected ignorance rather than wisdom. Even if I do recognize it and not allow it to affect my thoughts or actions I still hate the feeling. It's a painful reminder of my ego's presence. Still the hate I have towards these emotions does have its benefits, because it serves as added motivation to keep on killing my self(ego). It's always easier to defeat an opponent that you hate.

[Blair]

It seems Leah and Faust have read one too many New Age self-help books.

[Wild Fox Zen]

Exhaust your human consciousness and allow your inherent animal consciousness to come flooding in.

-

If you're aligning yourself with truth, then you should be aligning yourself with what is inherent, not what is contrived.

[Sapius]

Exhaust your human consciousness and allow your inherent animal consciousness to come flooding in.

-

Firstly, I don’t see that even possible to begin with. Secondly, look at UG Krishnamurti; that is exactly what he claims he has awakened to so to speak - animal consciousness, and yet, it took human consciousness to realize that, and yet the human consciousness remains, and he claims that that cannot be gotten rid of, so how is an animal nature more close to reality than human consciousness? I wonder.

[Leah]

Fear of letting go. What is 'letting go'? Letting go is dropping your conceptions, dropping your self, dropping the mind.

Trying to let go of these things is itself a form of fear.

All semantics, nevertheless...

"Let go" is not "move away from". Not when used as I intended.
"Move away from" is the same as "move towards", it orbits the same point of 'attraction'... something "moves towards", then meets a critical point, then "moves away from", then meets a critical point, then "moves towards", etc etc.

The point around which your above comment revolves is the same point that I am pointing to when I say "let go", "drop", etc, as preferable to "kill", "fight", etc. I choose these words because they are closer to that point.

Boring semantics.

What mind?
Why are you creating all these non-existent problems for Nick?

What mind?

The mind here, that is happening... what are you, blind?

Where did your post come from?