paths that lead to truth

[clyde]

There are, according to the Buddha, 84,000 paths that lead to truth. Some paths are dominated by reason and logic, other paths by faith and devotion, other paths by compassion and charity, and on and on; each of us fashioning a path with our lives. And each path has its risks and dangers, and we can point to others who are lost on each path. It would seem to me that wisdom and compassion requires us to assist one another as fellow wayfarers.

Do no harm,
clyde

[Carl G]

You make it sound as if everyone seeks truth and is on a path to it. This is certainly not the case. But yes, if one meets "fellow wayfarers" it is good to help them if one can.

[Leah]

You make it sound as if everyone seeks truth and is on a path to it.

Not everyone means to seek truth, but nevertheless, everyone is on a path to it.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

I disagree Leah; I see that there are many people so stuck in delusion that they could have truth explained to them loudly, clarly, and with visual aids, and they still would not get it. Many people see what they want to see as opposed to seeing what is really there.

[Leah]

I disagree Leah; I see that there are many people so stuck in delusion that they could have truth explained to them loudly, clarly, and with visual aids, and they still would not get it. Many people see what they want to see as opposed to seeing what is really there.

Self-realization is the eventual fate of everything alive. It occurs as it does due to what has happened before. To grow distaste for delusion, one must trust it again and again, be let down by it again and again, bear the pain of it again and again, its attraction must peter out - and until it does, truth will come second to it. To wander arrogantly in delusion is to be on a learning curve, that curve is the path to truth.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Leah wrote:

Self-realization is the eventual fate of everything alive. It occurs as it does due to what has happened before. To grow distaste for delusion, one must trust it again and again, be let down by it again and again, bear the pain of it again and again, its attraction must peter out - and until it does, truth will come second to it. To wander arrogantly in delusion is to be on a learning curve, that curve is the path to truth.

That’s a happy way to put it. However, this is no evidence that every being alive is destined to become enlightened. On the contrary, based on the evidence, most of the population lives and dies in total disorder. On the deathbed of most individuals, all there is in the brain is a conglomeration of contradictions, painful psychological memories, identifications, longings, attachments, people’s faces and all the rest of it. For most of the population, life is a nightmare/fantasy that ends in total confusion.

[clyde]

Ryan;

You wrote,

For most of the population, life is a nightmare/fantasy that ends in total confusion.

You may be correct. I only interact with a very small number of human beings and know only a small percentage of those. So what is a human being to do, if not to act with wisdom and compassion even to those lost in their nightmare/fantasy.

clyde

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Self-realization is the eventual fate of everything alive. It occurs as it does due to what has happened before. To grow distaste for delusion, one must trust it again and again, be let down by it again and again, bear the pain of it again and again, its attraction must peter out - and until it does, truth will come second to it. To wander arrogantly in delusion is to be on a learning curve, that curve is the path to truth.

That is more optimistic than realistic. Most people die in their delusions, and many people spread delusions to others. The criminal mindset is an obvious example because these people believe the problem was that they got caught - they don't,and most never will, understand that criminal behavior was made "criminal" because it is wrong.

And then some people's actions are so far away from truth that they can not be considered on the path at all, but rather on the other side of the bushes from the path. Even though the judge in this case decided to ignore the jury's reccomendation for the death sentance for this Florida man convicted of killing his wife, you have to see that with the circumstances of the guy being simultaneously that intelligent and that unwise, truth is not his goal.

Although one may find the path through random means of stumbling onto it, one must recognize the value of truth to even recognize the path.

In a manner of speaking, there is only the path. The whole path is the whole truth (or the 84,000 paths are the whole truth). A partial truth is not really the truth, so wandering across the path is not the same as truly being on the path, and wisdom comes with being familiar with the path (which only happens by recognizing it and spending sufficient attention on it - even if parts have only been seen from the path atop the mountain rather than traversing every inch personally).

One does not become familiar with the path by scrounging around in the underbrush, and if one is birthed in a bog and is never fished out, that individual never even becomes self aware, much less aware of Ultimate Truth.
.

[DHodges]

Some paths are dominated by reason and logic, other paths by faith and devotion, other paths by compassion and charity, and on and on; each of us fashioning a path with our lives.

I don't see how a path dominated by faith could possibly lead to truth.

[Nick]

There are, according to the Buddha, 84,000 paths that lead to truth.

ORLY???

Not everyone means to seek truth, but nevertheless, everyone is on a path to it.

People die every day and never gain any knowledge in regards to Absolute Truth. How can you justify such a naive statement?

[clyde]

DHodges;

Of course. If you saw how a path dominated by faith led to truth, you would be following that path. Each of us sees how our path leads to truth and with varying degrees of difficulty sees the potential of other paths.

clyde

[clyde]

Nick;

Regarding the 84,000 paths, I think the point is that there are many paths to the truth. Really.

And who have you been with at their moment of death and how do you know what they knew at that moment?

clyde

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Clyde,

A problem with faith is that it is definatively "not thinking." If you have faith in a lie, you do not get the truth. If someone tells you the truth and you believe what you are told, you are still only receiving the telling, not the direct truth.

If you get a bolt of "something" and you have faith in it, it could be the truth or it could be a delusion. Statistically, it is vastly more likely to be a delusion. Relatedly, clear thinking is part of ultimate truth - so even if you get a bolt of "something" that does turn out to be truth, it includes thiking which makes it no longer just faith.

If you want to word-play and say that thinkers have faith in thinking which is one way that a path of faith can lead to truth, you could phrase it that way, but that does not indicate what most people mean by "faith."
.

[clyde]

Elizabeth;

As I wrote in my original post, each path has its risks and dangers. You have noted one of the risks of the path of faith.

clyde

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Yes Clyde, and DH's admission was of something he didn't see. Rather than giving him insight, you told him:

DHodges;

Of course. If you saw how a path dominated by faith led to truth, you would be following that path. Each of us sees how our path leads to truth and with varying degrees of difficulty sees the potential of other paths.

This does not follow. "If you saw how a path dominated by faith led to truth, you would be following that path" is not true. Just because one can see how something could happen in one way does not mean that is the path he will take. If he wants the goal and he sees a more likely way to get there, it would be a good idea to take the more likely path.
.

[Steven Coyle]

I've been reading through an excellent work "The Zen Master Hakuin - Selected Writings." In it, Hakuin addresses this very divergence:

It must be understood that the koan (a form of rationality) and the recitation of the Buddha's name (faith) are both contributing causes to the path that leads to the opening up of the wisdom of the Buddha. The opening up of the wisdom of the Buddha is the main purpose for the appearence of the various Buddha's in this world. In the past the Buddha established expedients; one was called "rebirth in the Pure Land," another "seeing into one's own nature." How can these be two different things! Zen people who have not penetrated to this understanding look at a Pure Land practitioner and think that he is stupid and evil common person who knows nothing about the Great Matter of seeing into own's own nature. They feel that he is vainly reciting the Buddha's name in the hope of leaping across countless countries in broad daylight in order to be reborn in the Pure Land, and they liken him to a lame turtle that dresses itself up and then expects to jump over to China.

...

Studying Zen, calling the name, even reading and reciting sutras, are all aids in the path toward seeing the Way. They are like the staves that travelers use to aid them in their journeys.

Also of note, is Socrates' dialectical method, readily made apparent within the devotion and faith of the Pure Land practitioners.

[Matt Gregory]

There are, according to the Buddha, 84,000 paths that lead to truth.

What he taught was that there are 84,000 teachings to deal with the 84,000 types of delusion, and one has to master all of them to become a Buddha. There's only one path to Truth. You're either on it or you're not.

Some paths are dominated by reason and logic, other paths by faith and devotion, other paths by compassion and charity, and on and on; each of us fashioning a path with our lives.

The labels "reason", "logic", "faith", "devotion", "compassion", "charity", etc. all refer to different aspects of the same thing, wisdom. If you're conceiving of them as separate things, then you're a victim of ignorance.

It would seem to me that wisdom and compassion requires us to assist one another as fellow wayfarers.

Sure, but you have to be careful. If you try to help someone without becoming wise first, then you can do more harm than good to them (and yourself).

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

What he taught was that there are 84,000 teachings to deal with the 84,000 types of delusion, and one has to master all of them to become a Buddha. There's only one path to Truth. You're either on it or you're not.

That sounds more reasonable. Do you have a good link to these 84,000 so we can look more deeply into what he was actually talking about?

[clyde]

Elizabeth;

Regarding my response to DHodges, you are correct, I did not give him any insight into how a path dominated by faith leads to truth. For that he will need to find someone (not me) who is committed to that path and feels capable of teaching (or at least, explaining) their path.

And you are correct that what I wrote, “If you saw how a path dominated by faith led to truth, you would be following that path,” is not necessarily true. Human beings select paths for many different reasons, including likelihood of success, the ease or difficulty of the process, personal preferences, etc.

edit: So, to correct my error, I should have written, "If you saw how a path dominated by faith led to truth, you might be following that path."

clyde

[clyde]

Matt;

Since there is only Truth, where can you stand and not be on the path?

Wisdom is no more or less a label than your list.

If you see a human being drowning, do you throw that person a life preserver or do you wait until you’re wise?

clyde

[Steven Coyle]

There are, according to the Buddha, 84,000 paths that lead to truth.

What he taught was that there are 84,000 teachings to deal with the 84,000 types of delusion, and one has to master all of them to become a Buddha.

Do you believe that?

Ah!

Seriously, master 84,000 teachings to become a Buddha?

Ah!

What delusion is that called?

[David Quinn]

Having faith in reason is the only path to Truth.

Faith in something other than reason is a form of ignorance - it is what Islamic fundamentalists do. Reason without faith can only result in dry, academic intellectualizing. The goal should be to enter the whole of your personal life, the whole of your existence, into the equation of truth, as uncovered by reason.

As Matt alluded to, the "84000 teachings" refers to the idea that there are many different ways to reach the path of having faith in reason. But once you're on this path, and remember that very few people ever get to this stage, you are finally in a position to make a serious bid for enlightenment.

The idea that there are many paths into enlightenment is nonsense. This is simply a case of people having cherished attachments to protect and wanting to fashion a kind of pretend spiritual life around them.

-

[clyde]

David;

The “one path / many paths” argument reminds me of the “sudden / gradual” enlightenment argument.

clyde

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

If you see a human being drowning, do you throw that person a life preserver or do you wait until you’re wise?

If you are not wise, you don't have a life preserver. Should you throw them an anchor instead, just so you can feel like you did something because at least you threw them something? Or should you jump in yourself? Even a strong swimmer can be drowned by the irrational flailings of a panic-stricken drowning person.

[Nick]

And who have you been with at their moment of death and how do you know what they knew at that moment?

clyde

None, and I don't need to have that type of experience to know what Leah said is false. Enlightenment isn't going to happen to anybody with the snap of a finger. Just because someone is on their death bed doesn't mean they are going to become enlightened all of a sudden. If everyone were on the path to Absolute Truth the world would be a much different place.