Deconstructing the Feminine

[Leyla Shen]

Sue:

Males do carry “the seed” (the potential) for wisdom, because they carry the seed of masculinity. Therefore, all males have the potential for wisdom. That only a small number of men have tried to use their full potential in the pursuit of wisdom doesn’t alter the truth that all men possess (at base) the same potential.

The greater truth is the rarity/absence of factors that turn this seed into a blossoming tree in all males.

Therefore, your male seed speaks to my mind only of a fantastic empirical uncertainty.

Yes, most men waste their potential by enslaving themselves to woman. But even those weak and feeble minded fools may still possess an ounce of shame about their lives.

I don’t doubt that they do have moments where they feel shame--right before they go out and, just like a woman, go with the same ol’ flow. Perhaps, even, the shame is always there.

By feeling shame, they show their solidarity with those men who have made a bid for greater things.

Quite a euphemistic interpretation. Shame is closer to weakness than solidarity. Such seeds are impotent. Do you mean to make them feel better for it? Now, I don't particularly mind if that is the case but let's not pretend it isn't. I myself cannot see it any other way, frankly.

Yes, I’ll agree with you on this point if what you mean by “projecting my own idea[l]s” has to do with my considering that (1) all people value logic and reason as much as I do.

Though, I'd add, even after being proven incorrect time and time again, I have not, as yet, been dissuaded from my position. There are billions of people on the planet, and out of them (2) I've come across some who also value logic and reason. (3) Therefore,* I maintain that there is a possibility for there to be more.

Now, this is precisely the problem:

1. All people value logic and reason.
2. I have come across some who (but certainly not all who I have come across) value logic and reason.
3. There is a possibility for there to be more who value logic and reason.

How do you get “I have come across some who value logic and reason; therefore, there is a possibility for there to be more who value logic and reason” without being dissuaded from the idea that all people value logic and reason?

You stated that they were my “own idea[l]s” when you began writing the sentence. Whose idea[l]s you consider them to be now at the end of your sentence, is a complete mystery to me?

I did. Apologies for the badly constructed sentence. What I meant to convey is that you are casting such a great deal of faith in and focus on this male seed (potential for wisdom in all males) and that that is either your own ideal (that is, the seed is in YOU, a female) or the seed is not in you and you are yourself empty of any potential, parroting ideas that ultimately have no meaning to you. (Personally, I do not see you in the latter category.)

What kind of potential is potential that goes nowhere--the potential for shame?

Oh well – I'll just have to trust in my own mind and do the best I can. And I'm sure, Leyla, that you will continue to judge whether or not my thinking about reality accords with your own. (For that is the nature of this forum.)

Of course.

.

[Nordicvs]

Yes, men “lash out” at other men when they feel threatened. Deep inside they know that men who aren’t completely caught-up in the world of woman are stronger minded than they themselves are – but if they admitted that that was the case, they’d be admitting that their life was a complete joke.

True.

Men know that they need to live more dignified lives: lives that aren’t controlled by their weaknesses. And men know instinctively that inside other men is this same need and desire.

I agree---I just haven't witnessed this manifesting itself as some sort of 'fellowship.' Perhaps a subconscious one, or perhaps conscious yet not expressed as such.

This understanding is at the core of why men respect their rivals and enemies.

Also true.

It also explains why men often lash out irrationally at one another. For they are trying to save-face in situations where it is all too obvious that they aren’t living up to their potential.

This shared need and desire is indicative of the fellowship men have with one another.

-
Sue

Okay, I see your point better now. Much that goes on among men, especially real men, is non-verbal, "givens," regarding codes of conduct, et cetera, so in this context it is a sort of a fellowship.

Often men are extremely hard on one another precisely because they care and know the other can do better, although this is seldom expressed with words; it's simply understood at varying levels...the true masculine inherently knows the dangers of coddling, yet it also knows when a bit of encouragement can be helpful.

[Tim]

xerosaburu wrote:

DQ: I agree it's an excellent work. Who is the author? Does he have other material?

If that page is going to remain there permanently, I'll provide a link to it from my site.

xerosaburu: The pseudonym is Al Byumin.

Yes, it will remain there.

I want to see some more of his work first. I'm getting the impression that Al Byumin is a Muslim and that his article is merely a means of justifying Islamic patriarchal culture. Is he simply wanting to put all women into burkas, or is he pointing to something deeper?

What he says in that article is very good, but it is still just the tip of the iceberg.

-

Good catch there Dave. Just because they see that women don't belong where men are trying to do serious business does not mean they're on the up and up. There aint nothing they wouldn't do for their jihad, and helping out some men who don't want to have babies is right ontheir agenda. Look:
http://www.geocities.com/white_truth/

Any white man that is not having 2 or 3 babies if he can is helping them commit genocide.

[David Quinn]

I always have to laugh at the Islamic terrorists and their policy of suicide bombing. They don't seem to realize, because of their lack of interest in evolutionary science, that young men blowing themselves up before having children will gradually lead to a phasing out of their own kind from the gene-pool .....

-

[Diebert van Rhijn]

I always have to laugh at the Islamic terrorists and their policy of suicide bombing. They don't seem to realize, because of their lack of interest in evolutionary science, that young men blowing themselves up before having children will gradually lead to a phasing out of their own kind from the gene-pool .....

Not while the families where these suicide bombers grow up remain so large. And the death toll of all the 20th century wars haven't phased out the front line soldier type either, so why would these relatively few martyrs effect families of a rebellious population?

Just the economics of war and traditional 'values' which facilitate.

[Tim]

I always have to laugh at the Islamic terrorists and their policy of suicide bombing. They don't seem to realize, because of their lack of interest in evolutionary science, that young men blowing themselves up before having children will gradually lead to a phasing out of their own kind from the gene-pool .....

-

It's all a numbers game. There are always more boys born than girls, so not all men are going to get a woman anyway. There aint enough women to go around, so the loss of a few men to suicide bombings is not going to impact their gene pool. Most of the suicide bombers are men and take out a lot of people with the loss of just one extraneous breeder, so the impact is worse on the other side. It's a much bigger impact if the man takes out a bunch of women to the loss of just one man. The shortage of women is something to consider. Kevin's a biologist. He can back me up on this.

That's part of the wisdom of old fashioned values. Women should be shamed if they let themselves become old maids. There already aint enough to go around, so we should make sure they know how important it is that they don't selfishly keep their beauty from men.

Once a man's in his 30s, he needs to go find a purdy 20 year old and get her knocked up. It's our duty.

[hades]

Hades wrote:

Its futile and trivial, like writing an article on how to deconstruct your favorite food....who the fuck cares? Sure you can pretend to not like the food and come up with bullshit reasons as to why you don't want to eat it...Oh its gross when it expires...Oh its not very nutritious...but in reality you still desire that food, just like you desire woman.

If you were reliably informed that your favourite food was full of carcinogens and that eating it will probably give you terminal cancer in the not-too-distant future, then the chances are you would be turned right off it.

Ideas and truths can impact on the mind and undermine desire.

-

So, are you saying women are bad or somehow harmful for men? I'm not sure I follow your curious analogy...unless you can elaborate.

[David Quinn]

They're only harmful to those men who value truth. All pleasant attachments are harmful in this way, but the woman attachment is doubly dangerous because of how deeply it intrudes into the human psyche, and how life-shattering the consequences of getting involved with her can be. It is far more serious and dangerous (for the truthful man) than, say, getting addicted to heroin.

-

[hades]

They're only harmful to those men who value truth. All pleasant attachments are harmful in this way, but the woman attachment is doubly dangerous because of how deeply it intrudes into the human psyche, and how life-shattering the consequences of getting involved with her can be. It is far more serious and dangerous (for the truthful man) than, say, getting addicted to heroin.

-

How exactly are they harmful for the man who values truth?
You said they intrude into the human psyche...what do you mean?

Heroin is a serious drug, once you start developing a tolerance to it you can overdose, and if you try to quit the withdrawl symptoms are terrible...how can woman be more harmful than heroin to a man who values truth??


Also elaborate on what you mean by your idea of truth.


thnx

[Jamesh]

Should you have not read David's essay on WOMAN, then I suggest you do.


How about a Kierkie quote:
When a youth or young man goes astray in his passions, there are two powers alert to save him: a loving woman - and God in heaven. If he is saved by the former, he will still be finitized. If, however, he is not saved by woman's love, if he does not find a harbour here - but he is saved nevertheless, consequently by God, then his life becomes meaningful.

He is right here, a desire for wisdom, for knowing what is truly real, can be the equal of a womans love in giving a person something to live for - though in my case, it doesn't make up for their bodies :). Nor do I think much about the concept of "life becoming meaningful" - again meaning is ego related.

[tooyi]

As a corrective measure regarding well digested popular myths...

Heroin is a serious drug, once you start developing a tolerance to it you can overdose, and if you try to quit the withdrawl symptoms are terrible...how can woman be more harmful than heroin to a man who values truth??

Theodore Dalrymple is a psychiatrist and a prison doctor who treats heroin addicts and therefore probably is able to impart some knowledge:

Poppycock

'In 1822, Thomas De Quincey published a short book, "The Confessions of an English Opium Eater." The nature of addiction to opiates has been misunderstood ever since.'


Addicted to lies: junking heroin is no worse than flu

'It has long been established in scientific literature that withdrawal from opiates is medically trivial, and that the symptoms are much less unpleasant than flu, and easily alleviated. This is in marked contrast to, say, withdrawal from alcohol among those who drink greatly to excess. Withdrawing alcoholics may suddenly collapse and die; they may have epileptic fits; and their terrifying hallucinations may prompt them to behave in bizarre and dangerous ways, for example by throwing themselves from high windows to escape the pursuing monsters. Even withdrawal from long-term use of diazepam (Valium) may sometimes produce this picture: but withdrawal from heroin never.'

This article is excellent in many ways.

A dangerous drug, but not in the way some others that are boundlessly more deceptive.

[Faust]

Should you have not read David's essay on WOMAN, then I suggest you do.


How about a Kierkie quote:
When a youth or young man goes astray in his passions, there are two powers alert to save him: a loving woman - and God in heaven. If he is saved by the former, he will still be finitized. If, however, he is not saved by woman's love, if he does not find a harbour here - but he is saved nevertheless, consequently by God, then his life becomes meaningful.

He is right here, a desire for wisdom, for knowing what is truly real, can be the equal of a womans love in giving a person something to live for - though in my case, it doesn't make up for their bodies :). Nor do I think much about the concept of "life becoming meaningful" - again meaning is ego related.

Yes it very much is. A simpler way of saying that quote is "you can find peace of mind and ego/self actualization through women, but this makes you dependant on something else, therefore in order to be infinite you must say 'i don't have anyone to prove myself to' which makes you very independant and self-reliant, and hence 'wisdom.'

[Faust]

They're only harmful to those men who value truth. All pleasant attachments are harmful in this way, but the woman attachment is doubly dangerous because of how deeply it intrudes into the human psyche, and how life-shattering the consequences of getting involved with her can be. It is far more serious and dangerous (for the truthful man) than, say, getting addicted to heroin.

-

You don't have to be attached to women to enjoy them you know :) As Wilde said, "a man can always enjoy a woman as long as he does not love her." it's only serious if you let your ego get serious, the most vulnerable thing. As a result you must do like the woman in a relationship, be an actor. Sure you can tell her about the truths you've uncovered about life, but attachment isin't necessary.

[hades]

Faust13 is right, you can enjoy a woman and have a great relationship without being attached to her.


The wise man is the one who can safely have a relationship with a woman without the threat of being harmed (except maybe physically lol).

[David Quinn]

All young men who are strongly attached to women think this. They believe that they are in control of their craving for woman's sexuality and company, just as drug-addicts in the early phases of their addiction believe they are in control. It's only later that they realize they were kidding themselves, and by then it is far too late.

It is a common illusion held by the womanizer/seducer type. They view women as fruit to be plucked and enjoyed, and pride themselves with knowledge that they will never get caught in a particular woman's snares. But eventually they will. They always do. It is inevitable. Their very pride at being a successful seducer is already a sign of their bondage. They have already been trapped by WOMAN, and so it only matter of time before they become trapped by a particular woman.

And when that happens, what a pitiful sight it is. Once he was the King of Kings, a great seducer, with all womankind as his harem. Now he is just another schmuck mowing the lawn and driving his kids to soccer on the weekends.

-

[hades]

All young men who are strongly attached to women think this. They believe that they are in control of their craving for woman's sexuality and company, just as drug-addicts in the early phases of their addiction believe they are in control. It's only later that they realize they were kidding themselves, and by then it is far too late.

I think you give women too much credit.

It is a common illusion held by the womanizer/seducer type. They view women as fruit to be plucked and enjoyed, and pride themselves with knowledge that they will never get caught in a particular woman's snares. But eventually they will. They always do. It is inevitable. Their very pride at being a successful seducer is already a sign of their bondage. They have already been trapped by WOMAN, and so it only matter of time before they become trapped by a particular woman.

A seducer is not necessarily an awakened man. A wise man sees women for what they are, a transient pleasure, a potential friend. He would no more get attached to them, then he does to his ideas about truth or the infinite, because he knows even those will leave him one day.

And when that happens, what a pitiful sight it is. Once he was the King of Kings, a great seducer, with all womankind as his harem. Now he is just another schmuck mowing the lawn and driving his kids to soccer on the weekends.

-

Suffering comes and goes. The wise man doesn't fear being beaten, raped, or god forbid having children and mowing a lawn!

Although the egotistical seducer will probably fear those things, because he is strictly concerned with his own comfort, wishing it to be permanent.

[David Quinn]

Hades,

DQ: All young men who are strongly attached to women think this. They believe that they are in control of their craving for woman's sexuality and company, just as drug-addicts in the early phases of their addiction believe they are in control. It's only later that they realize they were kidding themselves, and by then it is far too late.

H: I think you give women too much credit.

We are the product of millions of years of evolution, and our primary task given to us by evolution is to find a mate and pass on our genes. Everything else is secondary, as far as evolution is concerned. This alone should give you an indication of how deep our attraction to the opposite sex runs.

Genetically and culturally, men are programmed to find women deeply attractive and spellbinding. It cuts very close to the core of our egos and massively influences human behaviour on all levels. You underestimate this reality at your peril.

A wise man sees women for what they are, a transient pleasure, a potential friend. He would no more get attached to them, then he does to his ideas about truth or the infinite, because he knows even those will leave him one day.

No, eating an ice-cream is a transient pleasure. Getting emotionally involved a woman is a major commitment and radically changes your life - assuming that you have one to begin with. In effect, it becomes a death sentence.

DQ: And when that happens, what a pitiful sight it is. Once he was the King of Kings, a great seducer, with all womankind as his harem. Now he is just another schmuck mowing the lawn and driving his kids to soccer on the weekends.

H: Suffering comes and goes. The wise man doesn't fear being beaten, raped, or god forbid having children and mowing a lawn!

Then he is incredibly foolish.

It would be like deliberately tying yourself to a tree for no good reason at all and slowly starving to death. Yes, your level of detachment might be able to ease the suffering of this needless activity to some extent, but it doesn't explain why you decided to tie yourself up in the first place.

It's a case of double standards with respect to the principle of non-attachment, which indicates insanity, not wisdom.

-

[hades]

Hades,

We are the product of millions of years of evolution, and our primary task given to us by evolution is to find a mate and pass on our genes. Everything else is secondary, as far as evolution is concerned. This alone should give you an indication of how deep our attraction to the opposite sex runs.

Genetically and culturally, men are programmed to find women deeply attractive and spellbinding. It cuts very close to the core of our egos and massively influences human behaviour on all levels. You underestimate this reality at your peril.

Well now you are giving evolution, science, and women way too much credit.

No, eating an ice-cream is a transient pleasure. Getting emotionally involved a woman is a major commitment and radically changes your life - assuming that you have one to begin with. In effect, it becomes a death sentence.

The point is to enjoy women and ice cream without becoming too attached to them. A wise man can do this, effortlessly.

You can enjoy ice cream and women in the moment, and if they leave you, you don't have to cry!

Then he is incredibly foolish.

It would be like deliberately tying yourself to a tree for no good reason at all and slowly starving to death. Yes, your level of detachment might be able to ease the suffering of this needless activity to some extent, but it doesn't explain why you decided to tie yourself up in the first place.

It's a case of double standards with respect to the principle of non-attachment, which indicates insanity, not wisdom.

-

You sound very afraid of women.
Good reasons are relative. One enjoys women, like ice cream.
You can be attached to them, without being too attached. (not to the point that when they leave you, you go crazy and depressed and suffer)


edit: the whole scenario of mowing a lawn and having kids and a wife I think scares you more than women. The things that associate with them and the responsibilities that follow require effort. Much easier to be a vagrant hermit I guess. Right?

[David Quinn]

Absolutely. There's nothing like a care-free life.

It will be interesting to hear your views in ten years time, to see if you've changed your tune.

-

[hades]

Absolutely. There's nothing like a care-free life.

It will be interesting to hear your views in ten years time, to see if you've changed your tune.

-

We'll see, if this forum is still around in 10 years.

[BMcGilly07]

Hades,

If you consider the birth of this forum as the original mailing list, Genius-l, this gathering has been along for at least 10 years. I first started reading Genius-l and the Thinking Man's Minefield since 10th grade, that was 10 years ago this year.

[hades]

Hades,

If you consider the birth of this forum as the original mailing list, Genius-l, this gathering has been along for at least 10 years. I first started reading Genius-l and the Thinking Man's Minefield since 10th grade, that was 10 years ago this year.

Oh, thats pretty cool.

[Faust]

Absolutely. There's nothing like a care-free life.

It will be interesting to hear your views in ten years time, to see if you've changed your tune.

-

David, you realize that you can enjoy women as a youth, not become to attached to them, AND not get married you know? What makes you think that every young man who likes the object of women will necessarily become too attached to them and get married and wither away? The smart genius ones are the bachelors, the ones that have women for ice cream, then find another one, and then never get married, this isn't difficult at all.

[One Moot Point]

Yeah - just like Kevin.

[Jamesh]

The smart genius ones are the bachelors, the ones that have women for ice cream, then find another one, and then never get married, this isn't difficult at all.

nope, they are ego laden males whose ego's are only satisfied by the degree they can dominate others. They are misogynsts to the nth degree. Scum who will use anything given the chance -essentially they are into beastuality/paedophilia -does not such a person think of the opposite sex in comparision to themselves, as mere animals or humans with a childlike mentality.

If you are not a kid, then give up this form of philosophy.