Deconstructing the Feminine

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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BMcGilly07
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Post by BMcGilly07 »

From etiology on the above link:
n may also be a consequence of the greater incidence of incestuous experiences during their childhood. This is believed to occur ten times more often in women than in men, with estimates running to up to one-fourth of all women
How could incestuous relationships happen ten times more often with women... if it were man to woman wouldn't the figure have to be fifty fifty? Unless age were the delimiting factor. When I think of incest I think of siblings, so there goes age, unless I'm wrong about their definition of incest.

Or does any horrible happening to women not happen to men? For example: I would imagine that for a man the life led after incest would be equally horrendous in nature, in his personal hell, as is the personal hell of the woman. This may not correlate to all men, but I'm sure the majority would have a conscience that would eat them up just as badly. So don't both parties really fall victim to ignorance and libido? Is it not slanted to place blame on one party? Or does it come down to penetration? I'm sure it takes two to tango, unless in this case both parties involved in the incest are women.

note: edited last word, changed from man to women.
Last edited by BMcGilly07 on Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BMcGilly07
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Post by BMcGilly07 »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:Other female thinkers, for one thing - and any piece of wisdom they may have for another.
Any examples off the top of your head?
BM wrote:you opine,
EI wrote:Thinking does tend to result in opinions.
Wise thinking leads to knowledge and wisdom. Opinions are born of arbitrary likes and dislikes.
BM wrote:because thoughts happen does not a thinker make.
EI wrote:The deaf do not hear and the blind do not see.
Hearing deafens the ears, sights blind the eyes to the inner working of truth.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Bryan McGilly wrote:How could incestuous relationships happen ten times more often with women... if it were man to woman wouldn't the figure have to be fifty fifty?
Unless it were the same man who was the father of some incest victims, the grandfather of others, the uncle of others, etc.
Bryan McGilly wrote:Or does any horrible happening to women not happen to men? For example: I would imagine that for a man the life led after incest would be equally horrendous in nature, in his personal hell, as is the personal hell of the woman.
Just a different manifestation - and the link was to borderline personality disorder, not effects of incest. Borderline personality disorder does not happen to men as much because boys are socially dissuaded from becoming clingy and the various other borderline traits. Most often males will turn to alcoholism instead, but drugs and violence are also frequent alternatives.
AlyOshA
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Post by AlyOshA »

Sue your stilted lecture is an empty sentiment. You haven't substantiated any of your arguments and your philosophy is non-existent, do you just expect me to believe you about the path to truth without any sort of logic behind your incredibly flagrant viewpoints? Your sermon was reminiscent of a southern baptist priest, the word of Sue needs no validation -- just believe...
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AlyOshA
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Post by AlyOshA »

A lie is not a rejection of the truth but a conscious misleading of the truth. Even delusion serves a purpose—otherwise it wouldn’t exist. Delusion is a prominent aspect of human consciousness. Many people rely on delusion for motivation and sometimes those delusions are proven to be a reality. But I will admit that women tend to rely on emotions during decision-making and are largely illogical by nature. I consider this counterproductive in many regards.
lost child
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Nordicvs
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Post by Nordicvs »

Matt Gregory wrote: I was reading these tales about someone who worked in a tattoo parlor and this one time some skank came in who wanted her pussy pierced, but she had a really runny yeast infection that he was trying to mop up in order to see what he was doing. That was the most disgusting story I've ever read.
Ugh, how vile.

My second girlfriend got those all the time---quite gross. (But she'd explained to me, "Men cause yeast infections in women.")
Elizabeth Isabelle wrote: Guys can get some nasty stuff too.
Yes, of course. However, there is no illusion of beauty regarding men---that's the point. Humans are disgusting creatures, male or female.
Bryan McGilly wrote: I wonder how frequent such a heartless tactic is utilized.
...
Some crappy experiences there, but quite useful for you. In my travels (some 25+ relationships, I've lost count how many exactly), the heartless tactics are more the norm than the exception. They all lived in deception, completely, every single one of them, but the cruelty with which they used it varied. The woman usually picks it up from her mother and-or friends, aunts, grandmother, whatever, from an early age---and she doesn't seem to develop any sort of ethical apparatus that informs her how appalling, ugly, and dishonourable such things are. Or else she lives in continual denial/rationalization and is able to justify any behaviour---and point the blame for it elsewhere. Or she's just brain-dead, or doesn't give a fuck, loving the power and control.

And when she gets caught, she'll either get viciously defensive and start counter-blaming, or out come the tears and self-pity---and men, chivalric suckers they are, say "Aww...poor baby," and let her off the hook.
Bryan McGilly wrote: With two out of three, I wouldn't be surprised if these atrocious mind-fuck strategies come into regular plays for beguiling women. Depending on the magical mystery and their male's ignorance of the processes of biology, a woman can get a carte blanch by laying such immense guilt on her man.
Indeed. Well, men get conditioned with guilt and shame from mommy, so it's all normal when they meet their neo-mommy and marry the wench. It's expected, and for most this shame-guilt/praise-approval/reward-punishment is part of what they consider "love." They'll be able to convince themselves that feces is coca just to get more mommy-praise (and sex).
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

Nordicvs wrote:No, it's not. It was just a general piece about female beauty---called "A Critique of the Female Body"---and not what I'd consider serious writing (hence being in my 'gibberish' section), ripe with sarcasm, being intentionally defensive and immature, and it was a general release of built-up annoyance.

Check it out if you want.
I like yours better than the one originally posted on this thread. :)
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Nick
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Post by Nick »

David Quinn wrote:This is a very naive outlook, of course. Nothing on this earth has greater consequences than forming emotional relationships with people. They can literally change (and even destroy) your life forever - assuming that you have a life to begin with.

I think your naivity in this area is mainly due to your limited conception of philosophy. If a person's conception of philosophy simply means reading textbooks and speculating about things in an academic fashion, then yes, forming emotional relationships is inconsequential. It makes no difference whether you fall in love or not.

However, if your conception of philosophy means the infinitely greater task of comprehending Reality and becoming perfectly truthful on all levels, then everything suddenly changes. Every choice before you is pregnant with possibilities and consequences. Flippantly dismissing a massive human attachment like love as "being of no consequence" is the last thing you would do.

I really have to laugh at the sheer contradiction of your two statement above, involving in particular your lack of questioning of love and relationships. It is pure comedy. But this is what happens when one confines the art of philosophizing to mere textbook theorizing. One unwittingly becomes a comedian.

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Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn "‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— your enemies will be the members of your own household.’ Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it. Matthew 10: 34

How I love these razor sharp daggers of wisdom! Powerful enough to upset even the most content of men.
Pye
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Post by Pye »

.

Yeast is present in every human body and overgrowth of it occurs in men and women alike. Women have both a convenient hatching place for its overgrowth as well as more ready exit for it. Men either pass it through hawking and spitting, or simply suffer its effects through their lethargy or agitation, or any other sensation that denotes a body hosting too many living parasites. Nearly every cancer or AIDS patient is also sporting an overgrowth of yeast (candidiasis): whilst the defense systems are busy with other viruses and growths, it cannot address the regulation of yeast levels in itself. Virtually all yeast overgrowth is caused by and can be eliminated through diet.

Little boys going "e-yew . . . !"


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Matt Gregory
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Post by Matt Gregory »

No, actually we're big now.

Ew, gross!
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BMcGilly07
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Post by BMcGilly07 »

There's a monkey in the mind. Picking the same things up then putting them down- picking it up, putting it down, up, down, up, down...etc. The monkey gives no love to the metal mommy, the monkey wants something plush to effuse and lose itself in. When the monkey's horny, he retreats to the halls of memory to pick one out and thrum whatever satisfaction there is to be had. If these mental flowers aren't opening by the moonlight, the monkey's off to the funhouse of the imagination.

If you can't leave it be, forget.
Pye
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Post by Pye »

.
No, actually we're big now.

Ew, gross!
:) Matt, a good natured laugh with you today.

Yes, any one of you sporting a diet high in fermentation (breadstuffs, bear/alcohol, cheese, sugar products [ferments inside you]) could have a "yeast infection." Add to that a diet high in acid-bearing foods (coffee, sodas, meat, pickling, etc.) and your body will bathe you in protective mucus, thus providing plenty of safe-housing for yeast to live and flourish. I say high-in so that troublesome sense of balance cannot be eluded here, either.

In the west, we are blowing up like loaves of rising bread, and just as puffy and pasty looking, too.


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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Pye wrote:Yes, any one of you sporting a diet high in fermentation (breadstuffs, bear/alcohol, cheese, sugar products [ferments inside you]) could have a "yeast infection." Add to that a diet high in acid-bearing foods (coffee, sodas, meat, pickling, etc.) and your body will bathe you in protective mucus, thus providing plenty of safe-housing for yeast to live and flourish. I say high-in so that troublesome sense of balance cannot be eluded here, either.

In the west, we are blowing up like loaves of rising bread, and just as puffy and pasty looking, too.
I thought that meat was okay? Actually I thought that meat and low glycemic index foods were about the only things that were okay.
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Jamesh
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Post by Jamesh »

Yes, any one of you sporting a diet high in fermentation (breadstuffs, bear/alcohol, cheese, sugar products [ferments inside you]) could have a "yeast infection." Add to that a diet high in acid-bearing foods (coffee, sodas, meat, pickling, etc.) and your body will bathe you in protective mucus, thus providing plenty of safe-housing for yeast to live and flourish. I say high-in so that troublesome sense of balance cannot be eluded here, either.

In the west, we are blowing up like loaves of rising bread, and just as puffy and pasty looking, too.


Yep, that's my diet. I've had generalised itch problems for many years now, severe enough to drive me into depression and delusion. I though it might be an allergy to dust mites, but considering what you say above perhaps I need to look more closely at this yeast issue.
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sue hindmarsh
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WHY MEN RESPECT ONE ANOTHER.

Post by sue hindmarsh »

Nordicvs wrote: I got involved with a few women who weren't socially appealing, trying to see some sort of "inner beauty," which I found was all pretense; they hadn't any admirable traits either, not even two brain cells to rub together.

Bryan wrote: I did have a savior complex, where I tried to make the woman see the angelic being I saw. Before I realized it was my own mind I was seeing.
For a man to be in a relationship with a woman, he must first elevate her to something worthy of his love and attention. He does this by assigning to her personality traits that he values; but not necessarily traits that he himself possesses. From Nordicvs and Bryan’s experiences above, a woman that possessed a beauty that was more than superficial was considered, by them, to be attractive. That neither of them was able to maintain such high expectations is no surprise, for both men would have had to work extremely hard at continually making adjustments to their ideal as the women in their lives showed no evidence of possessing any “inner” anything. But, of course, it isn’t women’s fault that they can’t live up to male expectations - it is man’s own nature that causes him to be discouraged and disappointed by the reality that surrounds him.

Unlike woman, he comes kicking and yelling into this world with an inner life that demands he attain perfection. All that early rough housing and plucking wings off of flies is just the beginning of the trials he puts himself through in order to discover his potential for perfection. Woman very quickly becomes one of his consuming passions, and through his relationship with her he is plunged into the adult world where he is given more tasks to test his metal. She is indeed his perfect partner, for she is unable to attain perfection herself, thereby allowing him to project upon her his own ideals and aspirations. More than often he becomes content with this occupation, and will travel no further. His life lived out imagining that he is still on his quest, but the reality being that he be entirely in her employ, with his potential dedicated towards making her world more comfortable.

But these men lost in woman's sway are useful to other men still striving towards the goal. From these men other men learn where the traps and pitfalls of woman lay, enabling them to remain free and to travel onwards. Lessons too come from those men who have lost sight of the goal and have instead taken to losing themselves in alcohol and drugs. And from those men who had the strength of mind to remain bachelors, but who have nevertheless dedicated their lives to pursuits that are ultimately anchored to the feminine: such as, religion, science, politics, careers, cars, friends, and shopping - even these men create bridges for other men to avoid being stuck fast in such a mire.

And all those fallen men that were used to traverse safely the many traps and diversions are not forgotten. Their usefulness is gratefully acknowledged by those few who make it safely to where the goal is in sight. They do so by lending a helping hand to lift up those that had been caught below.

This fellowship of man is something women have no knowledge of. Only men know it because of their shared goal. That is why even the most jaded man: one who is trapped in a marriage, a job and a mortgage, will still retain a degree of respect for those men who go all out and make a bid for perfection.

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Sue
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Post by Doggy »

What a radical piece of work, honestly. I have to say, that is partially breaking down the psychological components of love's delusion, but its not going to make me or anyone refrain from such activities.
I'll agree it helps people from becoming sexual beasts and could clarify better how reverent sex's purpose is.

That site doesn't really include true love. Even if it is all made up, love still alters the views of respect which is what this page is all about.

I don't know about you, but I nor anyone else I've ever known has compared a woman's lips on her face to the ones "below", and I highly doubt that's why they put it on or why the fad started in the first place. And I deny any subconsciously psychosomatic connections.
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Doggy wrote:and I highly doubt that's why they put it on
The thought never even occurred to me until reading that connection thought up by a man. Horny men can get really deranged.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

The fact that women lack consciousness of the significance of their behaviour is neither here nor there. Living species aren't consciously motivated to pass on their genes, but nevertheless that is the underlying dynamic to most of their behaviour.

Desmond Morris, an anthropologist, wrote a famous book in the 60s called The Naked Ape, which examines this subject in a similar fashion. For example, he thought women's breasts simulated bum cheeks, red lips simulated the vagina, rouge and make-up simulated the face of a woman orgasming (which brings blood to the surface of the cheeks and lips), and so on. It's worth reading.

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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

The fact that horny men get similarly deranged does not make their thoughts any less deranged (therefore divergent from reality). Doggy's point was doubting that the reason women wear lipstick was to remind men of the lips "down below." Having been born female, experiencing the pressures that society puts on females to wear makeup, going through middle school with others and seeing the peer pressure all females go through at that stage to wear make-up, and by hearing the of the specific pressures that my female friends who did not wear makeup went through, I can attest that the reason that females wear lipstick is not to remind men of "the lips down below." Actually, if I recall correctly, at the age that females are first pressured to wear lipstick, they neither have lips down below yet, nor are they aware that they are going to get any. It's more related to wanting to relieve tha harrassment that people get for not fitting in, and fitting in is particularly important to most youth of that age, and especially so for females.

There is also a biological drive to differentiate one's self from the other gender, which is more closely related to the need to establish one's identity rather than any sort of desire to pass on one's genetic material. This behavior is easily observed in children who are many years pre-pubescent. The differentiating behavior may carry on to adulthood even without a desire to pass on genetic material. An example is David's aversion to wearing pink even though he does not want to have any more children.

I am making a point about this because this is a forum dedicated to finding the true nature of reality, and the thought that females wear lipstick to remind men of the lips between their legs is not a reflection of reality.

If guys want to think gross stuff about females to curb their horniness, then I will leave that alone. As has been pointed out, since I am a female, my drives are not like that of a male. I also recognize that each individual has uniques drives. Premaritally, if I had sex one weekend a month, I did not feel driven to even think about it again for another month, but if I went too long without it, I would get distracted by sexual thoughts. I understand that many guys can not similarly just meet the need and be done with it, so I no longer propose the "like scratching an itch" theory. If guys have to think strange thoughts to get sexual desire out of their minds, then so be it - but at least recognize the thoughts for what they are rather than pretending fantasy du jour is reality and also tell yourselves you are on a quest for truth.
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Nordicvs
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Post by Nordicvs »

Sue, very well put.

This---
Sue Hindmarsh wrote: This fellowship of man is something women have no knowledge of. Only men know it because of their shared goal. That is why even the most jaded man: one who is trapped in a marriage, a job and a mortgage, will still retain a degree of respect for those men who go all out and make a bid for perfection.
---however, just doesn't ring true for me.

Most men I know, who are near my age (in their 30s), are experiencing the full crisis of their masculinity (or feeling of 'maleness') and feeling utter emptiness in the sense of meaning or purpose, which, as they've been taught and as has been reinforced by society, can come from no other source except through a woman, marriage, the house and car and flower garden and kids; so they've resigned themselves to everything except that, and---from what I've seen---have very little respect for those males who aren't also trying to attain that.

In fact, they lash out at males who aren't chasing tits and ass (call them "weird," "losers," "fags," whatever), and shame them because they---perhaps only subconsciously---acknowledge the strength it takes to resist, the strength they themselves lack, and men despise being reminded of their own weaknesses. Far easier to go with the flow and conform, be like the commercials instruct them to be, all for some stab at 'normality' or some misguided search for fulfillment or 'happiness' (surrendering of independence, smilingly walking into their own cages).

The only 'fellowship of man' I've witnessed by the family types, or wanna-be family types, is conditional to how other males are like them in these mediocre lifestyles (their slavery clique).

It's the same with their occupations---a man who's drifting about, from city to countryside, perhaps as a painter or sketcher or writer (or doing nothing of social or cultural significance at all), doing his own thing and not seeking new cars or the latest this-or-that on the market...he's utterly loathed by working types (or in the very least deemed 'uncool'), who carry their decision to remain a labouring drone or corporate whore as a badge of honour ("I work for a living!"). It's the same for how they view non-pussy-chasing or non-marrying types. It's as though they can't stand to see someone who's free of all that.
Doggy wrote: I don't know about you, but I nor anyone else I've ever known has compared a woman's lips on her face to the ones "below", and I highly doubt that's why they put it on or why the fad started in the first place. And I deny any subconsciously psychosomatic connections.
It's well known that in some cultures women had painted their lips as a signal of their willingness to perform fellatio. That's how lipstick came into use---that's generally how make-up came into use: females advertising their sexual maturity.

It's also no secret where kissing comes from, but I bet you never considered that---long ago babies were fed by their mothers (with mashed up food, like birds do with their chicks) mouth-to-mouth---the last time you kissed someone on the mouth. Deny any connections you want, they nonetheless exist. Watch a male baboon chasing after a big glowing-red ass of a female baboon and deny it all you want, too, but it's still a fact.

Perhaps do some reading instead of remaining stubbornly ignorant.
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Post by Leyla Shen »

Sue: This fellowship of man is something women have no knowledge of. Only men know it because of their shared goal. That is why even the most jaded man: one who is trapped in a marriage, a job and a mortgage, will still retain a degree of respect for those men who go all out and make a bid for perfection.

N: [This]---however, just doesn't ring true for me.


Ditto.

It’s rubbish. Why she insists on making such excuses for them because a few males have produced a few works of excellence is a complete matter of faith in "MALES carry the 'seed'" and not reason.

I have said before, I know women---they all live in my neighbourhood. And if Husband’s respect for the plight of the man bidding for perfection is to further lies on a day-to-day basis, they have no more respect for such a man than does Woman because She is nothing without Him!

Sue is actually projecting her own ideals onto (wo)men, or is Sue is willing to concede that such ideals are not her own?

Sue wrote:
She is indeed his perfect partner, for she is unable to attain perfection herself, thereby allowing him to project upon her his own ideals and aspirations. More than often he becomes content with this occupation, and will travel no further. His life lived out imagining that he is still on his quest, but the reality being that he be entirely in her employ, with his potential dedicated towards making her world more comfortable.


Ironic, I say.

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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Leyla Shen wrote:Sue is actually projecting her own ideals onto (wo)men, or is Sue is willing to concede that such ideals are not her own?
Sue is brighter than either of those options. Look for her ulterior motives, and you will see the difference between when Sue is actually speaking (which actually is almost never) and when Sue is playing traffic cop. When she is playing traffic cop, look at where she is directing traffic and you will see her two reasons why (only one of those has anything to do with David).

Sue has a lot of Woman in her, but she is also very intelligent. It would not be wise to underestimate her, or anyone that cold and calculating.
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

Elizabeth wrote:
Having been born female, experiencing the pressures that society puts on females to wear makeup, going through middle school with others and seeing the peer pressure all females go through at that stage to wear make-up, and by hearing the of the specific pressures that my female friends who did not wear makeup went through, I can attest that the reason that females wear lipstick is not to remind men of "the lips down below."
As I say, the conscious motivations of the woman aren't relevant. The underlying evolutionary motivation is for the woman to become more sexually alluring so that her genes can be passed on. That she might not think in those terms doesn't change this reality.

When a male peacock is showing off its tail to a prospective female, it isn't thinking: "I am engaging in this ridiculous ritual in order that I can pass on my genes". No, it is simply following its genetic programming.

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sue hindmarsh
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Post by sue hindmarsh »

Nordicvs wrote:
Sue: This fellowship of man...
---however, just doesn't ring true for me.

In fact, they lash out at males who aren't chasing tits and ass (call them "weird," "losers," "fags," whatever), and shame them because they---perhaps only subconsciously---acknowledge the strength it takes to resist, the strength they themselves lack, and men despise being reminded of their own weaknesses.
Yes, men “lash out” at other men when they feel threatened. Deep inside they know that men who aren’t completely caught-up in the world of woman are stronger minded than they themselves are – but if they admitted that that was the case, they’d be admitting that their life was a complete joke.

Men know that they need to live more dignified lives: lives that aren’t controlled by their weaknesses. And men know instinctively that inside other men is this same need and desire. This understanding is at the core of why men respect their rivals and enemies. It also explains why men often lash out irrationally at one another. For they are trying to save-face in situations where it is all too obvious that they aren’t living up to their potential.

This shared need and desire is indicative of the fellowship men have with one another.

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Sue
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sue hindmarsh
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Post by sue hindmarsh »

Leyla wrote:
I wrote: This fellowship of man...

Nordicvs wrote: ---however, just doesn't ring true for me.
Ditto.

It’s rubbish. Why she insists on making such excuses for them because a few males have produced a few works of excellence is a complete matter of faith in "MALES carry the 'seed'" and not reason.
Males do carry “the seed” (the potential) for wisdom, because they carry the seed of masculinity. Therefore, all males have the potential for wisdom. That only a small number of men have tried to use their full potential in the pursuit of wisdom doesn’t alter the truth that all men possess (at base) the same potential.
I have said before, I know women---they all live in my neighbourhood. And if Husband’s respect for the plight of the man bidding for perfection is to further lies on a day-to-day basis, they have no more respect for such a man than does Woman because She is nothing without Him!
Yes, most men waste their potential by enslaving themselves to woman. But even those weak and feeble minded fools may still possess an ounce of shame about their lives. By feeling shame, they show their solidarity with those men who have made a bid for greater things.
Sue is actually projecting her own ideals onto (wo)men,
Yes, I’ll agree with you on this point if what you mean by “projecting my own ideas” has to do with my considering that all people value logic and reason as much as I do.

Though, I'd add, even after being proven incorrect time and time again, I have not, as yet, been dissuaded from my position. There are billions of people on the planet, and out of them I've come across some who also value logic and reason. Therefore, I maintain that there is a possibility for there to be more.
or is Sue is willing to concede that such ideals are not her own?


You stated that they were my “own ideas” when you began writing the sentence. Whose ideas you consider them to be now at the end of your sentence, is a complete mystery to me?
Sue wrote:
She is indeed his perfect partner, for she is unable to attain perfection herself, thereby allowing him to project upon her his own ideals and aspirations. More than often he becomes content with this occupation, and will travel no further. His life lived out imagining that he is still on his quest, but the reality being that he be entirely in her employ, with his potential dedicated towards making her world more comfortable.
Ironic, I say.
Your estimation of me as a mindless creature, with no will of my own, living my life through man, bears no resemblance of what I know about myself. But, the reality could be that I do indeed lack the mind and will to be able to make clear and certain judgments about myself (and others) - thereby making the picture you have painted of me possibly correct.

Oh well – I'll just have to trust in my own mind and do the best I can. And I'm sure, Leyla, that you will continue to judge whether or not my thinking about reality accords with your own. (For that is the nature of this forum.)

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Sue
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