Non Plus Ultra thingy

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

David Quinn, I was reading your Non Plus Ultra thing and there is something you said that struck home. A person with a high IQ can indeed think himself insane: I have done it before, and it has become a source of concern for the females in my family. They literally go out of their way to keep me distracted so that I don't do it again.

But I've spent the last few weeks in Florida with my father, away from the girls. He likes to keep my stress and anxiety high, and is recklessly unconcerned about relapses; under high stress, I've learned methods of coping with too much creativity.

I will talk something out with a "muse" (usually a girl I have a crush on) to make sure I still make sense. I will watch imaginary beasts tear through trees. I will distract myself with mindless puzzles. I'm fully conscious this whole time that everything I'm doing is a distraction, and I engage in each distraction with the utmost seriousness.

In one autobiographical moment, I tried to explain to someone that "I am a paradox. My jokes are completely serious; my seriousness is a joke." &c. You've probably heard lines like that before. What caught me cold is afterward I happened quite accidentally across a description of enlightenment; it just so happens that enlightened people talk about the same sort of things. I didn't feel any different, but I had a complete understanding of why an enlightened person would say those things. Previously, it had just annoyed me. Such spiels sounded way too much like taunts.

So, as I guess as I'm now considered enlightened, and as you are quite the guru on enlightenment and wisdom... do you have any advice you'd like to share with fresh meat? (I know that's a rather general question, but you've been at this for a while and probably have something nifty to say.)
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Re: Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by David Quinn »

Hi mookestink,

Quote:Quote:<hr>David Quinn, I was reading your Non Plus Ultra thing and there is something you said that struck home. A person with a high IQ can indeed think himself insane: I have done it before, and it has become a source of concern for the females in my family. They literally go out of their way to keep me distracted so that I don't do it again.<hr> In what way did you think yourself into insanity? Are you able to talk about it? Is it a case that your mind becomes too energetic and you no longer have any control over it?


Quote:Quote:<hr>I will talk something out with a "muse" (usually a girl I have a crush on) to make sure I still make sense. I will watch imaginary beasts tear through trees. I will distract myself with mindless puzzles. I'm fully conscious this whole time that everything I'm doing is a distraction, and I engage in each distraction with the utmost seriousness.<hr> It must be a very frightening condition for you. Have you come to this forum to distract yourself?


Quote:Quote:<hr> In one autobiographical moment, I tried to explain to someone that "I am a paradox. My jokes are completely serious; my seriousness is a joke." &c. You've probably heard lines like that before. What caught me cold is afterward I happened quite accidentally across a description of enlightenment; it just so happens that enlightened people talk about the same sort of things. I didn't feel any different, but I had a complete understanding of why an enlightened person would say those things. Previously, it had just annoyed me. Such spiels sounded way too much like taunts. <hr> How do you know that the description of enlightenment that you read is genuine? In what way have you established that the author was actually enlightened, and not a deluded person in the grip of an altered state of consciousness?

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Re: Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Quote:Quote:<hr>In what way did you think yourself into insanity? Are you able to talk about it? Is it a case that your mind becomes too energetic and you no longer have any control over it? <hr>
I am able to talk about it, but I could furnish a million unlikely interpretations so I'll try to keep it simple. I was initially misdiagnosed as an incurable schizophrenic, and now I'm classified as a drug-induced psychotic. There is reason for me to believe that such is the case, but also reason for me to believe otherwise. I'm willing to play the psychiatrist's game because hey -- I get free money and I'm not permitted to work. Even though it's obvious as day (even to my psychiatrist) that I'm more than capable of working.

So yes. The short of it is this: I was experimenting with drugs and spirituality. I took a few drugs, but quickly got bored and stopped. Then, bored of spirituality as well, I went into seclusion and slowly worked through Nietzsche, pondering all the implications of what he was saying -- perhaps a bit too trustingly. Eight months of solitude, with my companions being Nietzsche and my dog, and I started getting really loopy. Of course, I noticed, but had my own interpretations as to what was going on. Interpretations that made absolutely no sense to anyone around me, so when I suddenly opened up and started speaking I was committed to a hospital for two-and-a-half-months.

Personally, I believe the constant companionship did as much for me as the medication. The way you put it: that my mind became too energetic and I lost control over it... that is a spot-on description. That's how my psychiatrist described it, and what my medication is designed to control.

It has been almost three years since I left the hospital, and it is looking like I will not need to be dependent on my medication for the rest of my life. The risperidal has been reduced from 4mg to 1mg per day. I was told to stay away from stress and drugs, but I am having my doubts as to whether or not "stress and drugs" actually precipitated the psychosis. It's a possibility, certainly, but I don't doubt that I could have been misdiagnosed twice. (Drugs are stupid and boring, so I'm staying away from them regardless.)

Quote:Quote:<hr>It must be a very frightening condition for you. Have you come to this forum to distract yourself? <hr>
It was very frightening having to put all that trust in other people when I had convinced myself they were all my enemies. I broke down once and had to be forcibly sedated.

Did I come to this forum to distract myself? Perhaps a little. Mostly, however, I would say it is because I have a bewildering memory of the Genius forum. Three years ago, back before I was committed, someone here told me that I seemed to have difficulty telling true from false and that that was a serious problem. I said that was false because I was uncertain, but it was most certainly true.

That someone could determine that so readily impressed me. It seems an enviable place to be (or just as likely, an unenviable one). I'm not jealous, though. Just curious.

Quote:Quote:<hr>How do you know that the description of enlightenment that you read is genuine? In what way have you established that the author was actually enlightened, and not a deluded person in the grip of an altered state of consciousness? <hr>
Good point. It would be hard for me to verify whether or not he actually was enlightened. However, it was a catch-phrase definition that described something that I experience which most certainly is not an altered state of consciousness. I believe the quotation was as follows:

"Wisdom is seeing the paradox; enlightenment is being the paradox."

To be a paradox: that makes everything I have heard of enlightenment make sense. Everyone is already a paradox, but to admit to oneself -- to describe oneself -- as a paradox: that certainly requires more than simply wordly wisdom. That is not a state of mind, but a level of understanding. I wasn't paying close enough attention to determine whether or not the author knew what the words meant.

As I believe I had indicated, previously I had described myself in nearly those exact words. I had called myself a paradox. I had a two-page description that boiled down to just that. I had run out of other ways to describe myself. It wasn't a state of mind that I was describing, but simply my perception of self. Edited by: mookestink at: 6/9/05 21:33
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Re: Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by David Quinn »

mookestink wrote:

Quote:Quote:<hr>I was told to stay away from stress and drugs, but I am having my doubts as to whether or not "stress and drugs" actually precipitated the psychosis.<hr> What else could it have been, do you think?


Quote:Quote:<hr> "Wisdom is seeing the paradox; enlightenment is being the paradox."

To be a paradox: that makes everything I have heard of enlightenment make sense. Everyone is already a paradox, but to admit to oneself -- to describe oneself -- as a paradox: that certainly requires more than simply wordly wisdom. That is not a state of mind, but a level of understanding. I wasn't paying close enough attention to determine whether or not the author knew what the words meant. <hr> I hate to say it but I'm already suspicious, because that would be one of the last things I would say about enlightenment. Paradox ultimately doesn't exist in Reality and thus the enlightened sage lives in an entirely paradox-free zone. His words and behaviour sometimes might seem paradoxical to the unenlightened observer, but this is an illusion.

A person can certainly have conflicting perceptions about the Universe, or about objects within it. However, that's merely a case of his being ignorant and irrational. Sounds mundane, but it is the truth. It has nothing to do with what's really there.


Quote:Quote:<hr>As I believe I had indicated, previously I had described myself in nearly those exact words. I had called myself a paradox.<hr> Why? Because you have conflicting values and desires?


MKFaizi

Re: Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by MKFaizi »

Obviously, those of us writing here have relatively high IQs. Big damn deal. Don't mean shit to a tree. I got one. You got one. Who cares?

Most serial killers have above average or bright range IQs. In the US, the one exception is the Green River Killer. His IQ was subnormal or borderline retarded. Yet, he eluded the cops for more than twenty years and killed fifty or so women. Early on, he passed a polygraph.

Anyway, I do not mean to usurp your discussion with DQ. But they slim pickins heah, ya'll. I am glad to take this downstairs.

Many people are attracted to GENIUS because they have high IQs. People think that a high IQ makes you special. I have known a lot of people with high IQs. Nothing special about any of them.

I think that you need to realize that intelligence is a given on this forum. You are either intelligent or you will not survive here.

Unlike David and Dan, I do not see the forum as a teat to suck. I see it as a minefield.

Hard work. Socially acceptable intelligence -- grades, IQ scores -- are not going to save you. David Quinn is not going to save you. You have to find your own way through the quagmire.

I wish you luck. I wish you preseverence when you trip the wire -- because you will.

I have written to Genius since 1997. I have learned a lot. Tripped the wire many times.

Interesting to obliterate yourself and survive.

Faizi




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Trevor Salyzyn
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Re: Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

David
Quote:Quote:<hr>What else could it have been, do you think?<hr>
A mixture of solitude, ignorance, and excessive pride.

A delusion is something inconsistent with one's upbringing. I do not see the psychosis as inconsistent with what I had been doing, or with my fatherless upbringing. Of course, it's very hard to see cause and effect here -- the doctor might say that I was only doing these things because I had been affected by the drugs. Then I would have to point out that I had identical behaviour prior to the drug use. He would say, in that case, that my depression caused the drug use. He always brings it back to the drugs. He could be correct, or he could just be seeing what he wants to see. I mean, it's a good interpretation with a healthy political message: stay away from drugs. But calling it the Best Interpretation may not prevent it from happening again.

Quote:Quote:<hr>I hate to say it but I'm already suspicious, because that would be one of the last things I would say about enlightenment. Paradox ultimately doesn't exist in Reality and thus the enlightened sage lives in an entirely paradox-free zone. His words and behaviour sometimes might seem paradoxical to the unenlightened observer, but this is an illusion. <hr>
So I may just be deluding myself. Perhaps I was trying to pull meaning from a coincidence. I wish I had saved my emails so I could check how I had arrived at the word 'paradox', to see whether or not it was consistent with your description or not. Oddly enough, I don't even want to be enlightened: I just want to know if I'm capable of using the word correctly or not.

Quote:Quote:<hr>A person can certainly have conflicting perceptions about the Universe, or about objects within it. However, that's merely a case of his being ignorant and irrational.<hr>
Agreed, and that certainly works in this case. I have a strange love of ignorance and irrationality.

Quote:Quote:<hr>Why? Because you have conflicting values and desires? <hr>
Perhaps. I wish I had the email. Anyway, I wouldn't feel comfortable answering that question at this moment, although it is probably accurate.

MKFaizi
I'd call it falling into the ocean. It's a bit of a struggle to keep my head above the water and all David is doing is summarizing what I'm saying and asking me questions. I've already become listless when awake and have this strange yearning to sleep more. :)
MKFaizi

Re: Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by MKFaizi »

Call you anything you want. But I know that you have not experienced it yet. Falling into the ocean does not quite describe it.

I am fully aware of the nature of your discussion with David Quinn. Continue. He is encouraging you.

Good luck when you trip the wire. This is a minefield.

I doubt that I will be around when the explosion hits but it will hit.

Faizi
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Re: Non Plus Ultra thingy

Post by Naturyl »

IQ is of little importance, except that is perhaps a prerequiste to true insight. In order to understand anything deeply, you need the raw intelligence to face the task - but it is simply a foot in the door and nothing more. IQ in and of itself has little (if anything) to do with quality of thought. In order to have substantial insight, one needs a certain capacity to reason things out (IQ), but the capacity to do so affords no guarantee that one will actually utilize such a capacity.

I know several people with an IQ quite close to my own (statistically identical) who don't have the first substantial thought in their minds. I'm sure that people exist whose IQs are significantly greater than my own who also offer nothing of intellectual substance.

I used to brag about my IQ. I don't any more, simply because I've learned firsthand just how insignificant it is when compared to the much more important factors of reason and intellectual honesty.

IQ is a good start, but by itself, it is nothing. Edited by: Naturyl  <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://www.imgmag.org/images/zway/naticon.gif" BORDER=0> at: 6/27/05 15:42
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