the underground man
Re: the underground man
It’s been about 4 years since last I visited this forum. I’m glad I did. I visited this thread and read the new posts. It was actually Alex T Jacob's translation of Violetta Parra that inspired me to write. So I will write to you Alex as the fictional representation I see in my imagination as I read your posts on this particular thread (I tried to read the other threads but they all seem listless, soulless, and lazy to my tastes). Hopefully this will be my only meandering rant on this forum for the next four years... but maybe not.
“It is the great mystery of human life that old grief passes gradually into quiet, tender joy. The mild serenity of age takes the place of the riotous blood of youth. I bless the rising sun each day, and, as before, my heart sings to meet it, but now I love even more its setting, its long slanting rays and the soft, tender, gentle memories that come with them, the dear images from the whole of my long, happy life-and over all the Divine Truth, softening, reconciling, forgiving. My life is ending, I know that well, but every day that is left me I feel how my earthly life is in touch with a new infinite, unknown, but approaching life, the nearness of which sets my soul quivering with rapture, my mind glowing and my heart weeping with joy.” – Fyodor
Of course you will find that just one fictional character in the formidable pantheon of Dostoevsky's literature has more depth, adroitness at insight, and qualities of genius than most of the living, breathing human beings that write on this forum. But that type of insult only engages in more endless debating and accomplishes very little, so I’d rather speak on a different level.
I’ve read the gospels many times and just like panning for gold, if you sift through the grit and sand long enough you can find nuggets of pure insight. But studying the gospels and listening to JS Bach’s St. Matthew’s Passion, St. John’s Passion, St. Mark, and St. Luke – is an altogether different experience. JS Bach’s works stand-alone as proof that a human being is capable of entering that point where causality (space/time) meets infinity (zero).
All religion, philosophy, and art seek the same thing, namely freedom (depending on your level of attainment freedom can simply mean that you are no longer enslaved) - Freedom from time, body, and ego (ego simply defined as the perception of the self). There are many different paths to that same ocean, depending on who you are and where you are coming from, but unfortunately the great majority are never able to consciously experience that freedom. JS Bach did, even if only long enough to compose certain arias in St. Matthew’s Passion (Nr. 39) or St. John’s Passion, but he experienced it and was able to adeptly express it in the ways that words will always fail. Those who never experienced true freedom might not recognize it when it is given to them, but even those who live in darkness and ignorance can appreciate the capabilities that are so far beyond their own and in turn empower their conquest towards that aim. It’s not just Bach I'm referring to, it could be Alex T's Violetta Parra, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Cecilia Bartoli, Chitra Singh, the temples of Angkor Wat, ML King’s mountain top speech, the philosophy of Vivekananda, a masterly orchestrated tea ceremony, certain Russian Icon paintings, or maybe even Peter Rowland’s Foundation of Physics ect…
Wittgenstein writes:
“4.014: A gramophone record, the musical idea, the written notes, and the sound-waves, all stand to one another in the same internal relation of depicting that holds between language and the world. They are all constructed according to a common logical pattern. (Like the two youths in the fairy-tale, their two horses, and their lilies. They are all in a certain sense one.)
4.0141: There is a general rule by means of which the musician can obtain the symphony from the score, and which makes it possible to derive the symphony from the groove on the gramophone record, and, using the first rule, to derive the score again. That is what constitutes the inner similarity between these things that seem to be constructed in such entirely different ways. And that rule is the law of projection which projects the symphony into the language of musical notation. It is the rule for translating this language into the language of gramophone records.”
“2.027: Objects, the unalterable, and the subsistent are one and the same.
2.0271: Objects are what is unalterable and subsistent; their configuration is what is changing and unstable.”
We use our eyes to see whatever we choose, but the eyes are only tools they are not the seer or the seen.
The mind is a tool of consciousness and has many functions as a tool but it is not the signifier, the signified, nor consciousness itself.
Ask yourself, is consciousness merely the product of chemical reactions residing in the human mind?
You can argue and debate this all you want but mental exercise (or masturbation as I like to call it) can only get you so far towards attainment. That attainment can occur in a single leap during one flash in the present moment – or while listening to Bach's choral Passions and intoxicated by the all-pervading essence of everything.
In conclusion, I will write freely and shamelessly to those not born of flesh but born of spirit…
Spend the rest of your life in a position of absolute regress. And let the rest. Behave with the grace of infinity.
Curl up and relax. Spanning, landing, lasting, contrasting, laughing, wishing, but all of this is on the last of your creations best, with intentions only for those that seek.
With each is a new love of the imperceptible. A new birth for the weak. A new death for the strong. A new cry for the happy. A new poem for the song. A new dance for the rich and petty. New languishes for the insane. New pills for the ill. New laughs for those with a feeling of bold, old, long and told, withhold nothing, son of glory, and flourish!
What if I told you infinity through a song? Would you listen then?
Cry but once a year and dance but once a long and graceful night, clouds as faint as smoke, written on the sky, love as subtle as life itself. Do not behave innocent dear child. You have been on this planet long before your ancestors and will exceed long afterwards, to oblivion, and beyond thought, you exist, both within and without, exceeding the limits of the sublime, withholding the folds of time, within your breast, and without the rest, lest, we leaves are but shadows on smoke, written on the wills of souls lost, expanding outwards with our universe – towards what? Obviously. Infinity. How can there be a beginning and an end? There is no sense, yet we refuse to admit. Everything we see lives and dies, including our sight. Do we still need proof? OK. Drop your head. Rest your thoughts. Centered within. Do you feel something? Yes? What is it? Express the imperceptible. Express the inconceivable. Express the unexplainable. Express the:
For in each drop is but a light of gold. This light is the beginning and the end, both zero and infinity. This light is what you have forgotten. This is where you exist but not with this time.
You are with us but not with this time. My hands are but golden leaves open to give and open to receive.
With this time you are now but an angel in the darkness. Blinded by your reality. If you so choose you can come back to us. Drop your head. Fix your gaze. And let your heart expand and envelope your body. Let your spine draw in energy. Let the mind relax. Drift with the energy and let it perceive itself, but only as a pattern of infinity. Trace that figure eight over and over, around each curve to the next. Then center yourself in the intersection of that figure eight. Light congregates in that open space like drops of rain in the curves of a leaf, like energy in the palms of your hand. Fold inside yourself. Again and Again. U are now in control. But you are not with this time.
Connect your brain to the unspoken, unconscious, effervescent, all-encompassing, source.
Here you have found that you are not perfect but only a reflection of your environment (that background seen through the opacity of smoke). You still fart. You still make mistakes. You are human.
Yes you are human. You are human. You are human. You are human. You are human. You don’t want to be human? Why not? OK. Now you are human and now you are not.
You are with us but not with this time.
but YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE. STOP PLAYING. START FEELING. WHAT ARE YOU?
I am the center of the universe. Each point in the universe is expanding. Reconfiguring. Evolving. But the center always remains the same.
“It is the great mystery of human life that old grief passes gradually into quiet, tender joy. The mild serenity of age takes the place of the riotous blood of youth. I bless the rising sun each day, and, as before, my heart sings to meet it, but now I love even more its setting, its long slanting rays and the soft, tender, gentle memories that come with them, the dear images from the whole of my long, happy life-and over all the Divine Truth, softening, reconciling, forgiving. My life is ending, I know that well, but every day that is left me I feel how my earthly life is in touch with a new infinite, unknown, but approaching life, the nearness of which sets my soul quivering with rapture, my mind glowing and my heart weeping with joy.” – Fyodor
Of course you will find that just one fictional character in the formidable pantheon of Dostoevsky's literature has more depth, adroitness at insight, and qualities of genius than most of the living, breathing human beings that write on this forum. But that type of insult only engages in more endless debating and accomplishes very little, so I’d rather speak on a different level.
I’ve read the gospels many times and just like panning for gold, if you sift through the grit and sand long enough you can find nuggets of pure insight. But studying the gospels and listening to JS Bach’s St. Matthew’s Passion, St. John’s Passion, St. Mark, and St. Luke – is an altogether different experience. JS Bach’s works stand-alone as proof that a human being is capable of entering that point where causality (space/time) meets infinity (zero).
All religion, philosophy, and art seek the same thing, namely freedom (depending on your level of attainment freedom can simply mean that you are no longer enslaved) - Freedom from time, body, and ego (ego simply defined as the perception of the self). There are many different paths to that same ocean, depending on who you are and where you are coming from, but unfortunately the great majority are never able to consciously experience that freedom. JS Bach did, even if only long enough to compose certain arias in St. Matthew’s Passion (Nr. 39) or St. John’s Passion, but he experienced it and was able to adeptly express it in the ways that words will always fail. Those who never experienced true freedom might not recognize it when it is given to them, but even those who live in darkness and ignorance can appreciate the capabilities that are so far beyond their own and in turn empower their conquest towards that aim. It’s not just Bach I'm referring to, it could be Alex T's Violetta Parra, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan, Cecilia Bartoli, Chitra Singh, the temples of Angkor Wat, ML King’s mountain top speech, the philosophy of Vivekananda, a masterly orchestrated tea ceremony, certain Russian Icon paintings, or maybe even Peter Rowland’s Foundation of Physics ect…
Wittgenstein writes:
“4.014: A gramophone record, the musical idea, the written notes, and the sound-waves, all stand to one another in the same internal relation of depicting that holds between language and the world. They are all constructed according to a common logical pattern. (Like the two youths in the fairy-tale, their two horses, and their lilies. They are all in a certain sense one.)
4.0141: There is a general rule by means of which the musician can obtain the symphony from the score, and which makes it possible to derive the symphony from the groove on the gramophone record, and, using the first rule, to derive the score again. That is what constitutes the inner similarity between these things that seem to be constructed in such entirely different ways. And that rule is the law of projection which projects the symphony into the language of musical notation. It is the rule for translating this language into the language of gramophone records.”
“2.027: Objects, the unalterable, and the subsistent are one and the same.
2.0271: Objects are what is unalterable and subsistent; their configuration is what is changing and unstable.”
We use our eyes to see whatever we choose, but the eyes are only tools they are not the seer or the seen.
The mind is a tool of consciousness and has many functions as a tool but it is not the signifier, the signified, nor consciousness itself.
Ask yourself, is consciousness merely the product of chemical reactions residing in the human mind?
You can argue and debate this all you want but mental exercise (or masturbation as I like to call it) can only get you so far towards attainment. That attainment can occur in a single leap during one flash in the present moment – or while listening to Bach's choral Passions and intoxicated by the all-pervading essence of everything.
In conclusion, I will write freely and shamelessly to those not born of flesh but born of spirit…
Spend the rest of your life in a position of absolute regress. And let the rest. Behave with the grace of infinity.
Curl up and relax. Spanning, landing, lasting, contrasting, laughing, wishing, but all of this is on the last of your creations best, with intentions only for those that seek.
With each is a new love of the imperceptible. A new birth for the weak. A new death for the strong. A new cry for the happy. A new poem for the song. A new dance for the rich and petty. New languishes for the insane. New pills for the ill. New laughs for those with a feeling of bold, old, long and told, withhold nothing, son of glory, and flourish!
What if I told you infinity through a song? Would you listen then?
Cry but once a year and dance but once a long and graceful night, clouds as faint as smoke, written on the sky, love as subtle as life itself. Do not behave innocent dear child. You have been on this planet long before your ancestors and will exceed long afterwards, to oblivion, and beyond thought, you exist, both within and without, exceeding the limits of the sublime, withholding the folds of time, within your breast, and without the rest, lest, we leaves are but shadows on smoke, written on the wills of souls lost, expanding outwards with our universe – towards what? Obviously. Infinity. How can there be a beginning and an end? There is no sense, yet we refuse to admit. Everything we see lives and dies, including our sight. Do we still need proof? OK. Drop your head. Rest your thoughts. Centered within. Do you feel something? Yes? What is it? Express the imperceptible. Express the inconceivable. Express the unexplainable. Express the:
For in each drop is but a light of gold. This light is the beginning and the end, both zero and infinity. This light is what you have forgotten. This is where you exist but not with this time.
You are with us but not with this time. My hands are but golden leaves open to give and open to receive.
With this time you are now but an angel in the darkness. Blinded by your reality. If you so choose you can come back to us. Drop your head. Fix your gaze. And let your heart expand and envelope your body. Let your spine draw in energy. Let the mind relax. Drift with the energy and let it perceive itself, but only as a pattern of infinity. Trace that figure eight over and over, around each curve to the next. Then center yourself in the intersection of that figure eight. Light congregates in that open space like drops of rain in the curves of a leaf, like energy in the palms of your hand. Fold inside yourself. Again and Again. U are now in control. But you are not with this time.
Connect your brain to the unspoken, unconscious, effervescent, all-encompassing, source.
Here you have found that you are not perfect but only a reflection of your environment (that background seen through the opacity of smoke). You still fart. You still make mistakes. You are human.
Yes you are human. You are human. You are human. You are human. You are human. You don’t want to be human? Why not? OK. Now you are human and now you are not.
You are with us but not with this time.
but YOU STILL HAVE A CHANCE. STOP PLAYING. START FEELING. WHAT ARE YOU?
I am the center of the universe. Each point in the universe is expanding. Reconfiguring. Evolving. But the center always remains the same.
lost child
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Conservationist
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- Contact:
Re: the underground man
Sounds straight out of Zarathustra.Pye wrote:The underground man is disgusted with the warranties that are asserted from Enlightenment (as in, the-age-of) thinking. Human beings are not as reasonable as they think.
To my mind, the underground man is a philosopher who has returned to Plato's cave after seeing the light.
All the people -- the Dunning-Kruger effect -- he knows his struggles are most likely in vain.
Why try? For the beauty of the potential of success.
Re: the underground man
I would like to apologetically retract everything negative or accusatory I wrote in my previous post. I am new to this forum, in that it has changed dramatically since last I visited. I am still stubbornly hung up on certain unresolved disagreements with a predominant theory that flourishes on this forum – namely the negative attributes, arbitrarily applied to femininity. Anyone familiar with the martial art Aikido can tell you that the best way to handle an attack is to yield and redirect the attacker and use his/her own energy against his/herself. These techniques are extremely effective in winning a fight (strategy) and they are entirely feminine in their philosophical attributes (as opposed to Karate techniques). But to be brief about the reason for my apology – I just discovered the reasoning show and it fucking rocks!
lost child
Re: the underground man
Yes, technologically speaking .. a step-and-a-half ahead of Genius Forum.AlyOshA wrote:But to be brief about the reason for my apology – I just discovered the reasoning show and it fucking rocks!
QRS Reasoning - What a beautiful choice!
Don't run to your death
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Talking Ass
- Posts: 846
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:20 am
Re: the underground man
Glad to see you back, Alyosha, and look forward to reading your posts.
Quote from Dosteovsky: “It is the great mystery of human life that old grief passes gradually into quiet, tender joy. The mild serenity of age takes the place of the riotous blood of youth. I bless the rising sun each day, and, as before, my heart sings to meet it, but now I love even more its setting, its long slanting rays and the soft, tender, gentle memories that come with them, the dear images from the whole of my long, happy life-and over all the Divine Truth, softening, reconciling, forgiving. My life is ending, I know that well, but every day that is left me I feel how my earthly life is in touch with a new infinite, unknown, but approaching life, the nearness of which sets my soul quivering with rapture, my mind glowing and my heart weeping with joy.”
Alyosha: "Of course you will find that just one fictional character in the formidable pantheon of Dostoevsky's literature has more depth, adroitness at insight, and qualities of genius than most of the living, breathing human beings that write on this forum. But that type of insult only engages in more endless debating and accomplishes very little, so I’d rather speak on a different level."
I think that you may find, as I have found (or believe I have), that many of the theorists here are reacting to uncertainty and confusion about life more that necessarily being proactive, although their doctrines would tend to be seen as a form of proactivity. In other places I have expressed the thought that they are in a peculiar 'post-modern quandary', something like being stuck in the body but unable to live there; desiring to rather brutally transcend the limitations of the body (physical existence) but without understanding the ramifications of tearing oneself away.
Many, though not all, would simply dismiss such words as you included from Dostoevsky; they would appear as the epitome of ignorance and delusion.
Quote from Dosteovsky: “It is the great mystery of human life that old grief passes gradually into quiet, tender joy. The mild serenity of age takes the place of the riotous blood of youth. I bless the rising sun each day, and, as before, my heart sings to meet it, but now I love even more its setting, its long slanting rays and the soft, tender, gentle memories that come with them, the dear images from the whole of my long, happy life-and over all the Divine Truth, softening, reconciling, forgiving. My life is ending, I know that well, but every day that is left me I feel how my earthly life is in touch with a new infinite, unknown, but approaching life, the nearness of which sets my soul quivering with rapture, my mind glowing and my heart weeping with joy.”
Alyosha: "Of course you will find that just one fictional character in the formidable pantheon of Dostoevsky's literature has more depth, adroitness at insight, and qualities of genius than most of the living, breathing human beings that write on this forum. But that type of insult only engages in more endless debating and accomplishes very little, so I’d rather speak on a different level."
I think that you may find, as I have found (or believe I have), that many of the theorists here are reacting to uncertainty and confusion about life more that necessarily being proactive, although their doctrines would tend to be seen as a form of proactivity. In other places I have expressed the thought that they are in a peculiar 'post-modern quandary', something like being stuck in the body but unable to live there; desiring to rather brutally transcend the limitations of the body (physical existence) but without understanding the ramifications of tearing oneself away.
Many, though not all, would simply dismiss such words as you included from Dostoevsky; they would appear as the epitome of ignorance and delusion.
fiat mihi
Re: the underground man
Well there is a glaring flaw often displayed here and everywhere. I am even guilty of it from time to time. When listening to some episodes of the reasoning show it appears more clearly. I respect David Quinn and Kevin Solway (and others who write on this forum) for trying to climb the mountain of delusion-free axioms, but you would think that they might be a bit more humbled on that arduous journey of theirs. This is an unfortunate characteristic rampant especially among Americans and Europeans. They did reach some profound truths along the way, but they often get too confident about their footing on the rock, not knowing that it is weakly supported, they stomp around on that cliff edge touting that they are on solid foundation. So it’s fun to watch the rocks crumble under their feet from time to time and slip back down that mountain they are attempting to climb. But to claim that they have already reached the very peak of that mountain is downright ridiculous! And any man on this forum or otherwise who somehow thinks he is beyond the great genius of say a Dostoevsky or a JS Bach is just pathetic – that person might find it more useful to commit suicide than plague the earth with their filthy ignorance – hahahaha! Sorry I amuse myself sometimes. But honestly I will gladly put that person in their place if they clearly spit out something proactive instead of relying on shameless criticisms.
lost child
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Talking Ass
- Posts: 846
- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:20 am
Re: the underground man
A problem with what you have written is that the Europeans utterly undermined everything, every solidity that had even been invented in terms of ontology, cosmology, certainty, etc. Unlike the Eastern idea-systems, which remain constant (I assume) the Western system has turned to devour itself, and out of that devouring...we arise.
I know that you are speaking of something somewhat different (the European and American contrivances of certainty) but I just thought I'd mention this.
I know that you are speaking of something somewhat different (the European and American contrivances of certainty) but I just thought I'd mention this.
fiat mihi
Re: the underground man
I agree with you, but I was actually referring to average people, not the literary and philosophical greats. I tend to encounter many Americans and Europeans (I am an American citizen of German decent) who are so arrogant about everything they preach. They are itching to jump the gun and call themselves authorities on subjects that take an insane amount of life-threatening work to master. In other words, they could use a little humility as it severely discredits the snippets of truth they have actually conquered. Am I making any sense?
lost child
Re: the underground man
Granted, I do not know you talking ass, but I have some talents at reading people. If you are already not familiar with his work, I think I know the perfect writer for you - are you familiar with the work of Emil Cioran? If not, please start with "The Temptation To Exist" it's only 200 odd pages long. I predict that you will go on to read his entire oeuvre after that. Cioran is not for everyone (sometimes not even for me), but I have a sneaking suspicion that he is perfectly suited for your tastes. Take my word - you will not be disappointed.
lost child
Re: the underground man
It is 100% possible to reach the top of the mountain of delusion-free axioms. Anyone who understands the interplay between causation and our definitions will see that when you inspect the boundaries there's not an inherently existing thing, but the "infinite" behind it and supporting it, like zooming in and out of a fractal. There is no content in the ultimate logical understanding of reality.
Our QRS and a few others on the forum clearly know this. The difference between them, like everyone else, is emotional habit. And in this there is no mountain top. Quality and endurance of attitude can always be improved upon in terms of pleasure and effectiveness in what you want to accomplish. This is the other side of the brain, so to speak, in which Talking Ass is a king.
Our QRS and a few others on the forum clearly know this. The difference between them, like everyone else, is emotional habit. And in this there is no mountain top. Quality and endurance of attitude can always be improved upon in terms of pleasure and effectiveness in what you want to accomplish. This is the other side of the brain, so to speak, in which Talking Ass is a king.
Re: the underground man
"It is 100% possible to reach the top of the mountain of delusion-free axioms."
Well I am not denying that it is possible to reach the top of that mountain, I am only denying that Quinn or anyone I have read on this forum has reached that pinnacle. That is as clear as a delusion-free day.
"Anyone who understands the interplay between causation and our definitions will see that when you inspect the boundaries there's not an inherently existing thing, but the "infinite" behind it and supporting it, like zooming in and out of a fractal. There is no content in the ultimate logical understanding of reality."
I 100% agree that there is an "infinite" behind it and supporting it. I disagree that QRS has successfully tapped into that infinite in the ways that greater men in history (and even currently) have. If there is no content in the ultimate logical understanding of reality then why are you all endlessly debating it and talking about it? In that case, you should read Wittgenstein's Tractus Logico-Philosophicus and enjoy a little silence at your mountaintop :)
Well I am not denying that it is possible to reach the top of that mountain, I am only denying that Quinn or anyone I have read on this forum has reached that pinnacle. That is as clear as a delusion-free day.
"Anyone who understands the interplay between causation and our definitions will see that when you inspect the boundaries there's not an inherently existing thing, but the "infinite" behind it and supporting it, like zooming in and out of a fractal. There is no content in the ultimate logical understanding of reality."
I 100% agree that there is an "infinite" behind it and supporting it. I disagree that QRS has successfully tapped into that infinite in the ways that greater men in history (and even currently) have. If there is no content in the ultimate logical understanding of reality then why are you all endlessly debating it and talking about it? In that case, you should read Wittgenstein's Tractus Logico-Philosophicus and enjoy a little silence at your mountaintop :)
lost child
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Talking Ass
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- Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:20 am
Re: the underground man
So now I am 'The King of the Asses'! I shoulda known I was heading for this! Skip should know, after all he spent time with the Mahatmas on their own turf.
Funny, I have a number of Ciorin titles in Spanish including Temptation to Exist. I have not much more than glossed them.
Alyosha wrote: "I tend to encounter many Americans and Europeans (I am an American citizen of German decent) who are so arrogant about everything they preach."
At least it can be seen as interesting---bold in some/many ways---that Solway and Crew make the claim that they have conquered doubt, have found the path that leads to 'Shangri-La' (so to speak). I wish to humbly suggest that this is the very attractive feature---the 'hook'---for youngsters who sit before the threatening abyss of modern unknowing and confusion.
Unlike Cioran, who was born in a certain darkness and finds only pessimism and randomness, I was born merely 'disoriented' and have regularly encountered 'jinns' of extraordinary beauty and the sort of awe Skip has spoken of. I am still, fudamentally, 'a believer'.
Funny, I have a number of Ciorin titles in Spanish including Temptation to Exist. I have not much more than glossed them.
Alyosha wrote: "I tend to encounter many Americans and Europeans (I am an American citizen of German decent) who are so arrogant about everything they preach."
At least it can be seen as interesting---bold in some/many ways---that Solway and Crew make the claim that they have conquered doubt, have found the path that leads to 'Shangri-La' (so to speak). I wish to humbly suggest that this is the very attractive feature---the 'hook'---for youngsters who sit before the threatening abyss of modern unknowing and confusion.
Unlike Cioran, who was born in a certain darkness and finds only pessimism and randomness, I was born merely 'disoriented' and have regularly encountered 'jinns' of extraordinary beauty and the sort of awe Skip has spoken of. I am still, fudamentally, 'a believer'.
fiat mihi
Re: the underground man
"Unlike Cioran, who was born in a certain darkness and finds only pessimism and randomness, I was born merely 'disoriented' and have regularly encountered 'jinns' of extraordinary beauty and the sort of awe Skip has spoken of. I am still, fudamentally, 'a believer'."
I wasn't suggesting that you were born in darkness or pessimism nor was I suggesting that you are not 'a believer'. I was recommending Cioran because of his incredible sense of philosophical humor and seemingly effortless ability to turn popular religious philosophy on it's head, crippling it by its own inherent contradictions. I was suggesting Cioran because I figured you were the type of person who enjoyed a good laugh in regards to the ridiculousness of doctrines.
"No sage among our ancestors, but malcontents, triflers, fanatics whose disappointments or excesses we must continue."
"According to our Chinese again, only the detached mind penetrates the essence of the Tao; the man of passion perceives only its effects: the descent to the depths demands silence, the suspension of our vibrations, indeed of our faculties. But is it not revealing that our aspiration to the absolute is expressed in terms of activity, of combat, that a Kierkegaard calls himself a "knight of Faith" and that a Pascal is nothing but a pamphleteer? We attack and we struggle; therefore we know only the effects of the Tao."
"The Tao Te Ching goes further than Une Saison En Enfer or Ecce Homo. But Lao Tse has no delirium to propose, whereas Rimbaud and Nietzsche, acrobats straining at the extreme limits of themselves, engage us in their dangers. The only minds which seduce us are the minds which have destroyed themselves trying to give their lives a meaning."
I wasn't suggesting that you were born in darkness or pessimism nor was I suggesting that you are not 'a believer'. I was recommending Cioran because of his incredible sense of philosophical humor and seemingly effortless ability to turn popular religious philosophy on it's head, crippling it by its own inherent contradictions. I was suggesting Cioran because I figured you were the type of person who enjoyed a good laugh in regards to the ridiculousness of doctrines.
"No sage among our ancestors, but malcontents, triflers, fanatics whose disappointments or excesses we must continue."
"According to our Chinese again, only the detached mind penetrates the essence of the Tao; the man of passion perceives only its effects: the descent to the depths demands silence, the suspension of our vibrations, indeed of our faculties. But is it not revealing that our aspiration to the absolute is expressed in terms of activity, of combat, that a Kierkegaard calls himself a "knight of Faith" and that a Pascal is nothing but a pamphleteer? We attack and we struggle; therefore we know only the effects of the Tao."
"The Tao Te Ching goes further than Une Saison En Enfer or Ecce Homo. But Lao Tse has no delirium to propose, whereas Rimbaud and Nietzsche, acrobats straining at the extreme limits of themselves, engage us in their dangers. The only minds which seduce us are the minds which have destroyed themselves trying to give their lives a meaning."
lost child
Re: the underground man
The Olympic athlete should like to do cart wheels in the grass from time to time. Likewise, the philosopher should like to toy with those who think they’ve solved it all.
lost child
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Kelly Jones
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Re: the underground man
Is that a delusion-free axiom, or your speculation?AlyOshA wrote:Well I am not denying that it is possible to reach the top of that mountain, I am only denying that Quinn or anyone I have read on this forum has reached that pinnacle. That is as clear as a delusion-free day.skipair wrote:It is 100% possible to reach the top of the mountain of delusion-free axioms.
Can you point out where you think David Quinn is mistaken, for example?
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Re: the underground man
Well I'm not sure it would be worth my efforts to start in on this again as I wrote at lengths with him in the past primarily regarding my disagreements with his dismissal of the usefulness of femininity in the Tao, contradicting the very philosopher he used to champion - Kierkegaard. But actually when I wrote this today I was referring to the reasoning show. I think he is a brilliant man and I truly admire him for the path that he has chosen, as a whole I agree with his axioms, but I can assure you, logically or otherwise, he is not enlightened (or fully self-realized/liberated, whatever word you choose to encapsulate such a vague idea). To word it more simply (always a handicap) I do not believe that he has realized and/or utilized the infinite/zero to the same degree that other great geniuses of mankind have. When talking to a great physicist or a Tibetan Buddhist, he assumes himself as a philosophical authority but never acknowledges the immense amount of mystery and the unknown existing in those fields of study (hence the hesitation and vagueness in his voice). Am I wrong? If so, clearly define enlightenment and tell me how he fits in that category. Also, if you could, please show me an example where he claims to NOT know some things about the immense mysteries left uncovered to human thought.
lost child
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Talking Ass
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Re: the underground man
I only mentioned my own position because it is helpful to orient someone when we know often small facts about them.
This is just an anecdotal aside: the fellow who suggested Cioran to me, in Colombia, was a man in a similar position, on inner levels, on intellectual levels, to at least some of the denizens of GF. It is a position that I feel I understand but it is not quite my own position (and that is why I mentioned my own 'position').
There was a strong current that came on the scene in Colombia in the 1950 and 1960 called Nadaismo which expresses and 'privelages' strains of pessimism and nihilism and a general rejection of 'spiritual' values. These sorts of movements succeeded in severing the connection between a viable Catholic spirituality and existential expression in the 60s and 70s era movements and had a notable influence on Colombian youth culture. Unlike the 1960s movement in the US which was a deeply spiritual (even ultra-spiritual) movement that re-expressed Puritan Christian values and prophetic Jewish values (etc.), most social movements in Latin America, including literature broadly, are strangely devoid of the 'spiritual' element.
I called this to mind when you mentioned Cioran and of course I made all those connections to my friend Jair...
I am leary of 'poisons for the heart'. (But read everything and anything myself).
This is just an anecdotal aside: the fellow who suggested Cioran to me, in Colombia, was a man in a similar position, on inner levels, on intellectual levels, to at least some of the denizens of GF. It is a position that I feel I understand but it is not quite my own position (and that is why I mentioned my own 'position').
There was a strong current that came on the scene in Colombia in the 1950 and 1960 called Nadaismo which expresses and 'privelages' strains of pessimism and nihilism and a general rejection of 'spiritual' values. These sorts of movements succeeded in severing the connection between a viable Catholic spirituality and existential expression in the 60s and 70s era movements and had a notable influence on Colombian youth culture. Unlike the 1960s movement in the US which was a deeply spiritual (even ultra-spiritual) movement that re-expressed Puritan Christian values and prophetic Jewish values (etc.), most social movements in Latin America, including literature broadly, are strangely devoid of the 'spiritual' element.
I called this to mind when you mentioned Cioran and of course I made all those connections to my friend Jair...
I am leary of 'poisons for the heart'. (But read everything and anything myself).
fiat mihi
Re: the underground man
"I am leary of 'poisons for the heart'. (But read everything and anything myself)."
I couldn't agree more :)
I couldn't agree more :)
lost child
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Kelly Jones
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Re: the underground man
AlyOshA, I'll address a couple of the misunderstandings in your paragraph above. I suppose you'd prefer any such misunderstandings to be cleared up as soon as possible, so...AlyOshA wrote:Well I'm not sure it would be worth my efforts to start in on this again as I wrote at lengths with him in the past primarily regarding my disagreements with his dismissal of the usefulness of femininity in the Tao, contradicting the very philosopher he used to champion - Kierkegaard. But actually when I wrote this today I was referring to the reasoning show. I think he is a brilliant man and I truly admire him for the path that he has chosen, as a whole I agree with his axioms, but I can assure you, logically or otherwise, he is not enlightened (or fully self-realized/liberated, whatever word you choose to encapsulate such a vague idea). To word it more simply (always a handicap) I do not believe that he has realized and/or utilized the infinite/zero to the same degree that other great geniuses of mankind have. When talking to a great physicist or a Tibetan Buddhist, he assumes himself as a philosophical authority but never acknowledges the immense amount of mystery and the unknown existing in those fields of study (hence the hesitation and vagueness in his voice). Am I wrong? If so, clearly define enlightenment and tell me how he fits in that category. Also, if you could, please show me an example where he claims to NOT know some things about the immense mysteries left uncovered to human thought.
First up, I can't speak for David, but I can address concepts.
When femininity is dismissed as useless in achieving an philosophical or spiritual goals, it is feminine psychology that's being dismissed. This doesn't have anything to do with the descriptions of the Tao, or, if you really want to push the link, then it relates only insofar as it reveals Lao Tsu liked using poetic symbolism.
Lao Tsu tried to describe the stillness of the source using a poetic metaphor. Asian women were often quiet and still, so it was natural for him to use that analogy. If he seriously meant that self-minimising, unobtrusive behaviour is the basis of wisdom, he'd have taught people to be as vegetable-like as possible. But he wasn't. He was just using a convenient metaphor for the characterlessness of the Way, and its changeless, unmoving essence.
For instance:
The stillness of the sages does not belong to them as a consequence of their skillful ability. It is their basic nature.
- The one who never changes is either the wisest of the wise, or the dullest of the dull.
The sages ramble in the vacancy of untroubled ease, find their food in the fields of indifference, and stand in the gardens which they had not borrowed.
- To accomplish without acting and to obtain without seeking - this is what is meant by the function of Heaven. Although the Tao of Heaven is profound, the great man will not deliberate on it, although it is great, he will not devote his energy to it, although it is meticulous, he will not scrutinize it. This is what is meant by refraining from contesting with Heaven.
- A man who is deformed cares little for ornamental clothes and outward appearance. A criminal under sentence of death will ascend to any height without fear of falling. He has ceased to think of life or death. Similarly, a man who abides in the Tao does not reciprocate gifts of friendship, having forgotten "friends". When respect is shown to him it awakens no joy, and contempt awakens no anger. This man resides in Heaven.
Enlightenment is the task of removing all mental constructions of the Way, by using the light of reason and a fiery, unquenchable thirst for truth. So the second misapprehension to address in your comment is that enlightenment does not rely on the *uncertainties* of the scientific method. It doesn't go exploring for the truth by limiting itself to perceptions of the world of phenomena. As a Taoist sage said, "Some people try to peep at the heavens through a tube, or aim at the earth with an awl. These implements are too small for the purpose. You will find many like this."
The path to enlightenment is not a process that relies on the scientific method. For that reason, your concern about presenting oneself as an authority in philosophy, and disregarding unanswered questions in physics or other scientific fields, is irrelevant. Tibetan Buddhism, to the extent it has lost sight of the Buddha's teachings, is also irrelevant to the philosopher's authority. Neither have anything to do with the Tao, or with the Dharma (the Buddha). So, yes, I'm sorry, but you were wrong.
If David's voice was hesitant or nervous, I think it was probably a result of not wanting to make any mistakes. That tends to make people sound uneasy and ineloquent. I'd prefer to listen to such a voice. Wouldn't you?
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Re: the underground man
"I suppose you'd prefer any such misunderstandings to be cleared up as soon as possible, so..."
Yes thank you I will sleep more comfortably the sooner my misunderstandings are addressed :)
"it is feminine psychology that's being dismissed"
Ohhhh... Feminine Psychology. Well my friend if you can explain feminine psychology in a succinct, all-encompassing mode of expression then you might just achieve more than any great artist, poet, philosopher, and psychologist that ever existed. Feminine Psychology is about the vaguest description I've ever heard - in other words it's useless - FAIL.
Depending on what translation you are using and how you interpret it, the Tao Te Ching is among the greatest works of the past 2,500 years. Those are nice quotes you provided, but I have no idea how they are supposed to express that QRS are correct in their dismissal of the feminine, if anything they only prove the opposite.
"Enlightenment is the task of removing all mental constructions of the Way"
So by "mental construction" you mean any attempt to explain the way with words, images, emotions, formulas, or concepts - or any attempt to conceive of the way with our mind? What is a "mental construction" exactly?
"by using the light of reason and a fiery, unquenchable thirst for truth."
There are MANY people who try to use the light of reason and have a fiery, unquenchable thirst for truth but to call them all "enlightened" is like calling every aspiring musician JS Bach. Those aren't very high standards.
"So the second misapprehension to address in your comment is that enlightenment does not rely on the *uncertainties* of the scientific method."
I am not merely talking about uncertainties of the scientific method, again you are thinking very small, I am talking about FAR greater uncertainties like the nature and extent of consciousness, infinity/zero, and the various degrees of intelligence, energy, perception, and existence in our universe - to name a few. Sure the exact nature of DNA on a quantum level or the exact nature of Dark Matter would be interesting to know too.
"It doesn't go exploring for the truth by limiting itself to perceptions of the world of phenomena."
So this brand of enlightenment is in the process of "exploring" for the truth - it hasn't already found the truth? Exactly what "truth" is being sought? "Limiting itself to perceptions of the world of phenomena" meaning they are not relying on temporal or spatiotemporal objects of sensory experience - they are also utilizing noumenon objects and events? In other words they also reach conclusions by "thinking". Again that's not very unique and you haven't really said anything - just vague, broad strokes. This is a common method of avoidance.
"I'd prefer to listen to such a voice. Wouldn't you?"
Yes I would. I like him very much and I also like his voice. It's just that this is supposed to be a forum dedicated to truth, so why don't these people come out and tell the truth - A.) They have not reached enlightenment. B.) There is no universal, absolute, all-encompassing philosophy/doctrine that brings one to enlightenment. C.) There are still SOOOO many things that they do not know.
Yes thank you I will sleep more comfortably the sooner my misunderstandings are addressed :)
"it is feminine psychology that's being dismissed"
Ohhhh... Feminine Psychology. Well my friend if you can explain feminine psychology in a succinct, all-encompassing mode of expression then you might just achieve more than any great artist, poet, philosopher, and psychologist that ever existed. Feminine Psychology is about the vaguest description I've ever heard - in other words it's useless - FAIL.
Depending on what translation you are using and how you interpret it, the Tao Te Ching is among the greatest works of the past 2,500 years. Those are nice quotes you provided, but I have no idea how they are supposed to express that QRS are correct in their dismissal of the feminine, if anything they only prove the opposite.
"Enlightenment is the task of removing all mental constructions of the Way"
So by "mental construction" you mean any attempt to explain the way with words, images, emotions, formulas, or concepts - or any attempt to conceive of the way with our mind? What is a "mental construction" exactly?
"by using the light of reason and a fiery, unquenchable thirst for truth."
There are MANY people who try to use the light of reason and have a fiery, unquenchable thirst for truth but to call them all "enlightened" is like calling every aspiring musician JS Bach. Those aren't very high standards.
"So the second misapprehension to address in your comment is that enlightenment does not rely on the *uncertainties* of the scientific method."
I am not merely talking about uncertainties of the scientific method, again you are thinking very small, I am talking about FAR greater uncertainties like the nature and extent of consciousness, infinity/zero, and the various degrees of intelligence, energy, perception, and existence in our universe - to name a few. Sure the exact nature of DNA on a quantum level or the exact nature of Dark Matter would be interesting to know too.
"It doesn't go exploring for the truth by limiting itself to perceptions of the world of phenomena."
So this brand of enlightenment is in the process of "exploring" for the truth - it hasn't already found the truth? Exactly what "truth" is being sought? "Limiting itself to perceptions of the world of phenomena" meaning they are not relying on temporal or spatiotemporal objects of sensory experience - they are also utilizing noumenon objects and events? In other words they also reach conclusions by "thinking". Again that's not very unique and you haven't really said anything - just vague, broad strokes. This is a common method of avoidance.
"I'd prefer to listen to such a voice. Wouldn't you?"
Yes I would. I like him very much and I also like his voice. It's just that this is supposed to be a forum dedicated to truth, so why don't these people come out and tell the truth - A.) They have not reached enlightenment. B.) There is no universal, absolute, all-encompassing philosophy/doctrine that brings one to enlightenment. C.) There are still SOOOO many things that they do not know.
lost child
Re: the underground man
Oh and yeah and D.) There is not only one path to enlightenment and there are no logical reasons to indicate that masculine is better than feminine.
lost child
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Kelly Jones
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Re: the underground man
There are many scientists that refer to basic attitudinal differences between males and females in the way they behave. For instance, psychologists put forward profiles, or psychological types, when looking at certain dysfunctional behaviours. If they notice a correlation between profiles and sex, then this can drive forward more accurate research. For instance, Simon Baron-Cohen (a cousin of the comic actor Sascha Baron-Cohen), who directs research on autism at Cambridge, has described five major psychological theories of autism and Aspergers Syndrome, and in four of those, there is a correlation to sex. As follows: monotropism (inability to multitask well), mindblindness, "Systematizing" vs "Empathising", and magnocellular theory. But even in healthy, functional persons, there are also sex differences in psychological types.AlyOshA wrote:Feminine Psychology is about the vaguest description I've ever heard - in other words it's useless - FAIL.
If you would like some more information on some basic psychological differences between the sexes, think about the evolution of the sexes, and how sex roles would influence a person's attitudes and drives.
Well, none of them talk about the wise woman, for a start.Depending on what translation you are using and how you interpret it, the Tao Te Ching is among the greatest works of the past 2,500 years. Those are nice quotes you provided, but I have no idea how they are supposed to express that QRS are correct in their dismissal of the feminine, if anything they only prove the opposite.
A mental construction is an abstract concept. By removing all mental constructions, I didn't mean to stop thinking, or explaining, or conceiving. I meant, to stop assuming that the Way can be wholly encapsulated in any thought, explanation, or concept.Kelly: Enlightenment is the task of removing all mental constructions of the Way
AlOshA: So by "mental construction" you mean any attempt to explain the way with words, images, emotions, formulas, or concepts - or any attempt to conceive of the way with our mind? What is a "mental construction" exactly?
Relying solely on reason, and not letting anything surpass the thirst for truth, is an extremely rare occurrence. Many people say they want the truth, or say that they are rational.Kelly: by using the light of reason and a fiery, unquenchable thirst for truth.
AlOshyA: There are MANY people who try to use the light of reason and have a fiery, unquenchable thirst for truth but to call them all "enlightened" is like calling every aspiring musician JS Bach. Those aren't very high standards.
Easily resolved: One can never know for certain what consciousness is, or whether anyone else is conscious, or whether anyone else exists. David has already addressed these.Kelly: So the second misapprehension to address in your comment is that enlightenment does not rely on the *uncertainties* of the scientific method.
AlyOshA: I am not merely talking about uncertainties of the scientific method, again you are thinking very small, I am talking about FAR greater uncertainties like the nature and extent of consciousness,
I take it you're referring to a mathematical infinity there, rather than the Infinite. But even so, no mysteries in either of these. They're not interchangeable, by the way.infinity/zero,
There aren't various degrees of existence in the universe. Varying degrees of perception could only be measured in terms of one's own consciousness (not of others directly), and, like the former two, is an empirical matter, so all those fall into the realm of measurements made using the scientific method. Done and dusted.and the various degrees of intelligence, energy, perception, and existence in our universe - to name a few.
The one seeking Enlightenment doesn't use the scientific method. That's all I meant by the above quote."It doesn't go exploring for the truth by limiting itself to perceptions of the world of phenomena."
So this brand of enlightenment is in the process of "exploring" for the truth - it hasn't already found the truth?
If it were one truth, and not another, then one would be falling into the error warned against by Lao Tsu. Truth (with a capital T) refers to that which isn't encapsulated in any particular thought, explanation, or concept.Exactly what "truth" is being sought?
I'm only dealing with one basic issue here, at the moment. Once it's clear to me that you understand why intellectualising about Reality is different to the scientific kind of form of exploration, then we can move on."Limiting itself to perceptions of the world of phenomena" meaning they are not relying on temporal or spatiotemporal objects of sensory experience - they are also utilizing noumenon objects and events? In other words they also reach conclusions by "thinking". Again that's not very unique and you haven't really said anything - just vague, broad strokes. This is a common method of avoidance.
Well, there's another option: they are telling the truth, but in such a manner that you don't hold onto it. That's a very deliberate technique, because it points directly to the Way.Kelly: I'd prefer to listen to such a voice. Wouldn't you?
AlyOshA: Yes I would. I like him very much and I also like his voice. It's just that this is supposed to be a forum dedicated to truth, so why don't these people come out and tell the truth - A.) They have not reached enlightenment. B.) There is no universal, absolute, all-encompassing philosophy/doctrine that brings one to enlightenment. C.) There are still SOOOO many things that they do not know.
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Talking Ass
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Re: the underground man
Use of the word 'enlightenment' is similar to using the word 'God'. It is a vast, vague, and often subjective term - intellectualizing it and debating it usually devolves into mere semantics and opens an endless can of worms. Hence the exchange between Kelly Jones and I. Depending on how you define that term specifically, I think it is "possible". I have only met one person in my life who I feel was close to reaching my definition of enlightenment. But I have read the words, listened to the music, and experienced the artworks of people who I believe are far more enlightened than the vast majority of those who've occupied human history.Alyosha, do you accept 'enlightenment' as a category?
Using the predominating philosophy of this forum, which I will liken to the approach Vivekananda calls Jnana Yoga (path of knowledge), I think it is possible to reach a certain type of enlightenment, but I believe that intellectualizing yourself towards enlightenment is EXTREMELY difficult and has only occurred successfully maybe a few times in human history - certainly not on this forum. For example Kelly Jones says:
I disagree. The hesitation in his voice is caused by the seeds of uncertainty. Uncertainty goes deep, down to the outer core of human consciousness. Anyone who claims to hold no uncertainties about anything (as various people on this forum do), is either delusional, lying to erect some fantasy, ego-created image of themselves, or has truly entered the realm where causality meets infinity/zero. human experience is bound by causality, space, and time. There is no empirical evidence of infinity or zero, but without those concepts virtually all of the natural sciences, especially mathematics and physics, as well as philosophy and religion, would collapse and no longer make sense. From a spiritual perspective, I believe that it is possible to visit an experiential realm where causality meets infinity. Those who have either entered that realm or are closer to entering it, are by my definition closer to obtaining enlightenment.If David's voice was hesitant or nervous, I think it was probably a result of not wanting to make any mistakes. That tends to make people sound uneasy and ineloquent.
You implied that I didn't acknowledge a distinction between male and female psychology but I never said anything remotely similar to that so I don't understand the relevance of what you wrote.There are many scientists that refer to basic attitudinal differences between males and females in the way they behave. For instance, psychologists put forward profiles, or psychological types, when looking at certain dysfunctional behaviours. If they notice a correlation between profiles and sex, then this can drive forward more accurate research. For instance, Simon Baron-Cohen (a cousin of the comic actor Sascha Baron-Cohen), who directs research on autism at Cambridge, has described five major psychological theories of autism and Aspergers Syndrome, and in four of those, there is a correlation to sex. As follows: monotropism (inability to multitask well), mindblindness, "Systematizing" vs "Empathising", and magnocellular theory. But even in healthy, functional persons, there are also sex differences in psychological types.
No I would not like more information on that particular topic, but thank you for offering. Why did you bring this up in the first place? I thought you discredited the scientific method so how is this relevant to what we are discussing? Firstly, human consciousness is as great a mystery as the nature of the universe. Consequently, Psychology as a science is an absolute joke. But ultimately a necessary joke. To encompass the entire breath of female psychology down to it's essence and motivation, by pointing out a few highly generalized distinctions to male psychology is half-assed laziness.If you would like some more information on some basic psychological differences between the sexes, think about the evolution of the sexes, and how sex roles would influence a person's attitudes and drives.
On the topic of Psychology, why do you think Albert Einstein said this:
In my opinion it was Dostoevsky's profound insight into human psychology, philosophy, and the nature of the soul that inspired that statement.Dostoevsky gives me more than any scientist, more than Gauss.
That's all I have time for now. Peace.
lost child