Krishnamurti: Kundalini or epilepsy

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.

Krishnamurti: Kundalini or epilepsy

Postby Ankit Gupta » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:05 am

I came across J Krishnamurti's notebook in which he describes perception of great pains and energy. In the foreword it is noted that.
"the process". In 1922, at the age of twenty-eight, Krishnamurti underwent a spiritual experience that changed his life and which was followed by years of acute and almost continuous pain in his head and spine. The manuscript shows that "the process", as he called this mysterious pain, was still going on nearly forty years later, though in a much milder form.

In an interview Krishnamurti says that:
"I wrote it [Krishnamurti's Notebook] as a diary while I was traveling?but I did not write it for publication. I describe what I call the process-my sensation of being outside the ordinary world, of being completely at peace and removed from conflict. This happens only from time to time and clearly it is impossible to describe to anybody who has not experienced it. But I have attempted to put into words the actual pain and sensation which goes with the heightened consciousness. It is not intended in a romantic way: if you lead a certain type of disciplined, quiet life you realize a kind of energy-that's scientific fact-and this affects the non-mechanical part of your brain so that you enter into a new dimension. The physical organism is incapable of meetings it and so you get the pain. I am not suggesting that everyone should try to attain this, but it may be of interest to some people who have followed my thoughts and ideas to know what happens on a more personal level."

- J. Krishnamurti
[interview with The Guardian]

I wonder if this notebook is a confirmation of the kundalini myths of yoga. On the other hand another writer Christopher Calder notes that:
Matthew Alper points out in his book that some forms of epilepsy cause hyper-religiousness and mystical experiences. J. Krishnamurti's mother was an epileptic, and we know epilepsy can be genetically transferred. J. Krishnamurti never had fits, but he often mysteriously passed out, giving those near him warning that he was about to lose consciousness

So I am wondering whether enlightenement leads to these strange and intense pains in the spine and head, which would give credence to the kundalini theory. Or Krishnamurti confused his epilepsy with the arising of the kundalini. Any comments? Did someone else also experienced these strange phenomenon concurrent with his/her enlightenment?

Krishnamurti's notebook can be located online at.
http://www.freeweb.hu/tchl/krishnamurti ... ebook.html

Interview with the guardian was lifted from.
http://www.prahlad.org/gallery/Krishnam ... utyens.htm

Christopher Calder's webpage.
http://home.att.net/~meditation
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Postby Wild Fox Zen » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:20 am

I experienced an intense, but relatively minor kundalini rising. It didn't bust through the crown chakra, and I can't recall any enlightenment (having experienced that in a separate instance), just some fleeting ecstacy (I estimate about six hours), and a week-long endocrine burn-out. It's definitely not epilepsy, nor is it *caused* by enlightenment, but I can see how you might happen onto those associations.

This is definitely the wrong board to ask this. You'd get more relavent responses at an acupuncture or chi kung board--hell, even occultforums.com.

The people here probably have very little to no frame of reference for this sort of esotericism.
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Postby Cory Duchesne » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:00 am

You want to know if Krishnamurti's life was marked by bouts of Kundalini or epilepsy?

I don't know enough about kundalini to say, but I do think that there is something significant about epilepsy.

For instance, the latest neurologists say that epilepsy takes place in the frontal lobes, which just so happen to be the most recent development in the human brain.

The brain specialist also say that studies are indicating that the frontal lobes are the 'God part of the brain'.

They even go so far as to say that the frontal lobes are the higher facaulties of human intelligence.

When an epileptic seisure strikes, there is an abnormal level of electrical activity happening in these frontal lobes.

Following the seisure, the indivual is left with an abnormal level of energy, philsophical capacity/propensity and sensitivity to beauty and ugliness.

Do a search on epilepsy and genius.

If you look hard enough you'll find great thinkers like Socrates, kierkguaard, and Doestevsky have all suffered from epilepsy.

U.G. Krishnamurti has reportedly suffered from epilepsy as well
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Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 08, 2006 8:31 am

Because epilepsy involves increased activity in the frontal lobes, it can stimulate a person's thought-processes, helping him gain new insights and new ways of thinking - not unlike taking LSD or pot. So it's no surprise that some of the great thinkers of history were epileptic.

On the other hand, you don't need to be epileptic in order to become a great thinker or become enlightened. There are other ways to stimulate the frontal lobes. Engaging in intense contemplative thought, for instance.

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kundalini or epilepsy

Postby Ankit Gupta » Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:16 pm

Actually I was specifically interested in the following questions.

1)Is kundalini something real? Or is it one of the colorful myths of Hinduism? If anybody has experienced something of the nature of kundalini awakening please come forth.

2)Does enlightenment occur in concurrance with this awakening, here one may also recall UG krishnamurti talking about his calamity in which he experience immense pain the spine and head(though he could be joking about the whole thing, I recall him saying once that since enlightenment his feces smell like mangoes and strawberries).
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Postby David Quinn » Tue Aug 08, 2006 4:11 pm

Ankit wrote:

1)Is kundalini something real? Or is it one of the colorful myths of Hinduism? If anybody has experienced something of the nature of kundalini awakening please come forth.

It all depends on what we mean by it. According to this site, the following symptoms are common manifestations of the risen Kundalini:

* Muscle twitches, cramps or spasms.

* Energy rushes or immense electricity circulating the body

* Itching, vibrating, prickling, tingling, stinging or crawling sensations

* Intense heat or cold

* Involuntary bodily movements (occur more often during meditation, rest or sleep): jerking, tremors, shaking; feeling an inner force pushing one into postures or moving one's body in unusual ways. (May be misdiagnosed as epilepsy, restless legs syndrome (RLS), or PLMD.)

* Alterations in eating and sleeping patterns

* Episodes of extreme hyperactivity or, conversely, overwhelming fatigue (some CFS victims are experiencing Kundalini awakening)

* Intensified or diminished sexual desires

* Headaches, pressures within the skull

* Racing heartbeat, pains in the chest

* Digestive system problems

* Numbness or pain in the limbs (particularly the left foot and leg)

* Pains and blockages anywhere; often in the back and neck (Many cases of FMS are Kundalini-related.)

* Emotional outbursts; rapid mood shifts; seemingly unprovoked or excessive episodes of grief, fear, rage, depression

* Spontaneous vocalizations (including laughing and weeping) -- are as unintentional and uncontrollable as hiccoughs

* Hearing an inner sound or sounds, classically described as a flute, drum, waterfall, birds singing, bees buzzing but which may also sound like roaring, whooshing, or thunderous noises or like ringing in the ears.

* Mental confusion; difficulty concentrating

* Altered states of consciousness: heightened awareness; spontaneous trance states; mystical experiences (if the individual's prior belief system is too threatened by these, they can lead to bouts of psychosis or self-grandiosity)

* Heat, strange activity, and/or blissful sensations in the head, particularly in the crown area.

* Ecstasy, bliss and intervals of tremendous joy, love, peace and compassion

* Psychic experiences: extrasensory perception; out-of-body experiences; pastlife memories; astral travel; direct awareness of auras and chakras; contact with spirit guides through inner voices, dreams or visions; healing powers

* Increased creativity: new interests in self-expression and spiritual communication through music, art, poetry, etc.

* Intensified understanding and sensitivity: insight into one's own essence; deeper understanding of spiritual truths; exquisite awareness of one's environment (including "vibes" from others)

* Enlightenment experiences: direct Knowing of a more expansive reality; transcendent awareness

Most have people would have experienced a number of these symptoms throughout their lives, but they don't necessarily become any wiser through them.

The only symptoms of any interest, as far as philosophy is concerned, are the last two. However, in my experience, it is perfectly possible to experience these last two without suffering any of the other symptoms. The last two are very much a feature of my life, yet it would never have occurred to me to think that I have experienced a "kundalini awakening".

So I would say: no, kundalini is unnecessary for the purpose of becoming enlightened.


2)Does enlightenment occur in concurrance with this awakening, here one may also recall UG krishnamurti talking about his calamity in which he experience immense pain the spine and head(though he could be joking about the whole thing, I recall him saying once that since enlightenment his feces smell like mangoes and strawberries).

I think he was just big-noting himself with those sorts of reminiscences. He could be such a woman at times. I wish he could have focused more on improving his understanding and skills as a teacher, rather than waste his time misleading his listeners with irrelevant nostalgia-talk.

If UG was truly enlightened (and I have my doubts), he would have known that enlightenment cannot be found through altered states, mystical revelations, transcendental awarenesses, kundalini awakenings, and the like. Rather, it is something which can only be found after one has calmly and methodically perfected one's intellectual understanding of Reality and eliminated all delusion from the mind. All this other stuff is just bells and whistles. You might as well talk about the football instead.

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Re: kundalini or epilepsy

Postby Sapius » Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:04 pm

Ankit Gupta wrote:Actually I was specifically interested in the following questions.

1)Is kundalini something real? Or is it one of the colorful myths of Hinduism? If anybody has experienced something of the nature of kundalini awakening please come forth.

2)Does enlightenment occur in concurrance with this awakening, here one may also recall UG krishnamurti talking about his calamity in which he experience immense pain the spine and head(though he could be joking about the whole thing, I recall him saying once that since enlightenment his feces smell like mangoes and strawberries).


Ankit, why do you want to know? Moreover, the real question is, can you really KNOW?

…and clearly it is impossible to describe to anybody who has not experienced it. – (Section from your quote of JK)


Does this not tell you any thing at all?

Try this then…

I (Sapius), has never ever eaten an apple, and I take it that you (Ankit) have, so please describe me the taste so that I may KNOW, without eating one myself.
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Postby Ryan Rudolph » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:26 am

Davd Quinn wrote:

If UG was truly enlightened (and I have my doubts), he would have known that enlightenment cannot be found through altered states, mystical revelations, transcendental awarenesses, kundalini awakenings, and the like. Rather, it is something which can only be found after one has calmly and methodically perfected one's intellectual understanding of Reality and eliminated all delusion from the mind. All this other stuff is just bells and whistles. You might as well talk about the football instead.


I’ve always wondered whether Epilepsy and the common manifestations the Kundalini are somehow related to the macroevolution of the organism.

Cory Patrick and I have discussed other Macroevolution changes in the species such as the emergence of complicated digestive organs during the transformation from reptile to mammal.

The rapid growth of the neocortex on top of the smaller repilian and mammailian cortexes in the brain.

The rapid transformation from hair to the skin organ.

And there are many others, and some of these changes would been short-term violent transformations and they would have accomplished a huge amount of change in a small period of time.

Now based on the accounts of sages, these symptoms smell like a macroevolution change. The species brain structure and body are being altered, the brain is being re-organized, dormant glands are being re-activated and many other changes are happening within the body.

It is almost as if the present human body cannot support the demands of the immense intelligence so the intelligence must tweak the body as an instrument when it makes contact as a means to make the next encounter that much easier.

However Quinn is right, Epilepsy and Kundalini are not necessary to improve ones logical abilities and I have personally never suffered any of these extremes symptoms myself, but nevertheless I'm open to the possibility that these symptoms are quite significant in terms of the biological evolution of the species as a whole.
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Postby Wild Fox Zen » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:14 am

Most have people would have experienced a number of these symptoms throughout their lives, but they don't necessarily become any wiser through them.


The kundalini IS an enormous surge of bio-electric energy rushing straight up through your entire body and into your head. The rest may or not be sympotamatic, but are probably hinting at other types of chi emergence. And no, even kundalini, will not necesarily make you a wiser or better person. it will definitely make you different though.
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Re: kundalini or epilepsy

Postby Ankit Gupta » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:53 am

Sapius wrote:Ankit, why do you want to know? Moreover, the real question is, can you really KNOW?

I just wanted to know if there is such a thing at all or is it a myth?

I (Sapius), has never ever eaten an apple, and I take it that you (Ankit) have, so please describe me the taste so that I may KNOW, without eating one myself.

If you have tasted a pear, I can say that the apple tastes much like a not so ripe pear, its fibers seem to be more loosely packed, overall it is not so difficult to descibe in terms of existing fruits you may have tasted. Interstingly MR J.K. in his notebook keeps on desribing it as pain light ecstasy etc. My question was whether he confused neurological dysfunction with something else?
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Re: kundalini or epilepsy

Postby Wild Fox Zen » Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:43 am

Ankit Gupta wrote:I just wanted to know if there is such a thing at all or is it a myth?


Like anything else, it's phenomenological. You have to experience it for yourself if you want to know for sure.

We, in the west, have no truly sophisticated/widely-accepted scientific vocabulary to properly convey the kundalini experience, so you're out of luck if the words of Indian mystics aren't convincing enough for you.
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Postby Ryan Rudolph » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:01 am

Ankit Gupta wrote

My question was whether he confused neurological dysfunction with something else?


I actually own JK’s notebook and while reading it, in my opinion it doesn’t seem what he experienced was a neurological dysfunction.

For instance: he would talk about how the process lasted 20 minutes by the watch and during that time the sensitivity of his organism dramatically increased.

He would then dedicate half of a page of writing to a flower he observed or a flock of seagulls.

And one could tell by the descriptions he was overjoyed to be writing about such things, there was nothing else he’d rather be writing about except the beauty he observed in nature.

Neurological Dysfunction? …Or Macroevolution change of the Species?
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Postby Sapius » Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:27 am

Ankit,

I just wanted to know if there is such a thing at all or is it a myth?


How many people would it take for you to believe or accept, that it is not a myth?

If you have tasted a pear, I can say that the apple tastes much like a not so ripe pear,


'Not so ripe pear like' does not help. Please ‘describe’ the taste of an ‘apple’.

its fibers seem to be more loosely packed, overall it is not so difficult to describe in terms of existing fruits you may have tasted.


I have had all other fruits, including the not so ripe pear, and you say it is NOT exactly like that. So what is it like? I have to understand only from your description. You get the point?

My question was whether he confused neurological dysfunction with something else?


Well, only JK could answer that, but as far as I can tell, he did have an extraordinary experience, and certain experiences are so personal in nature, just like a particular “taste”, that it cannot be actually described for another to understand. Actually, it has to be KNOWN, not "understood".

By “extraordinary” I do not mean “supernatural”, nor some neurological dys-function, but a very natural occurrence that very few may have experienced, and most of them will not speak because it cannot be ‘explained’ as such, and even if one does, like JK tries, others will not believe or understand until the majority of us experience the same, or, it is proven scientifically. It is too early in evolution for the majority of us to experience, or science to get a hold of it. Let’s get a good grip on quantum mechanics for now; once understood, it may point to some uncanny possibilities.
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pears and apples

Postby Ankit Gupta » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:12 am

Well to make my point clear enough. I was not looking for any qualitative or realistic description of kundalini. My intent was to hear other people's experiences about this issue. This being a board where I am sure there would be quite a handful of enlightened persons who can relate something of note. And the seekers perspective on kundalini would be also interesting to me. And I am not looking to make a judgement either way. It would be interesting to hear people's opinion even if nothing of worth comes out.
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Postby Sapius » Fri Aug 11, 2006 7:11 am

Ankit,

Well to make my point clear enough. I was not looking for any qualitative or realistic description of kundalini.


I’m sorry to point out, but that is exactly what you are looking for… but never mind that… and please don’t get me wrong.

My intent was to hear other people's experiences about this issue.


All that one generally experiences is what is called real life, lucid dreaming, dreaming, and may be day dreaming, but what if THAT what you are asking to be described is not within the scope of any of those? How will you actually understand or accept?

I’m not trying to avoid this discussion by posing some arrogant or sarcastic remark, but simply pointing out that why it cannot be actually explained or understood.

This being a board where I am sure there would be quite a handful of enlightened persons who can relate something of note.


I am a simple thinker, and prefer not to be included in any thing that even smells like an exclusively revered position or status. I cannot object to who values what for what reasons, but I value being alive, because I am.

And the seekers perspective on kundalini would be also interesting to me.


I am a seeker of ‘understanding’, and in my experience, that is a very natural phenomenon and can happen, in different ways to different people. I’m not aware that it can be particularly attained through some method though.

And I am not looking to make a judgement either way. It would be interesting to hear people's opinion even if nothing of worth comes out.


Well, that’s another story…

If you are really interested, then I could give you very straight forward answers only, and you could take that for a rant if you like, but I’m afraid I cannot give much descriptions, because to actually understand that, one would have to necessary give considerations to certain assumptions first, because he is not aware of them first hand, and scientists and physicists have yet to catch up with many other things that are common place, so where do they have the time to look into that which is not so commonly experienced, hence are not formally interested, so one will not have the benefit of even that until and unless such things become a more common occurrences.

I just wanted to know if there is such a thing at all or is it a myth?


No, it is not a myth. Will this suffice and quench your curiosity? I don’t think so, but on the other hand, it really cannot be understood if one has not even taken the first step of completely replacing his belief system with the conclusions reached through logical reasoning in and of existence, and most importantly, holds and retains each and every logically connected conclusions with stern convictions, but then again, there are those who actually believe that one can and has removed all delusions just through reasoning, but he has no idea as to how much of an emotional strength one needs to actually retain those convictions, at any and all given moments, hence live it. Once that happens, one actually stops actually asking questions, and if that happens to you, you will also not ask any questions as such, because hopefully after that you might then experience certain unexpected things on your own, and they come in many forms, that defy a four dimensional experiential logic, and gradually the circle of your logic expands because of your experience.

2)Does enlightenment occur in concurrance with this awakening, here one may also recall UG krishnamurti talking about his calamity in which he experience immense pain the spine and head(though he could be joking about the whole thing, I recall him saying once that since enlightenment his feces smell like mangoes and strawberries).


I don’t think that is UG Krishnamurti; may be J Krishnamurti; because what I understand from what I know of UG is that he denies the existence of any such thing known or defined as “enlightenment”, (I understand in which context he says that), so how could he say “after enlightenment”? Could you please clarify that?

However, a constant or a temporary unexplained sense of fragrance being “sensed” is very much possible.
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Postby bert » Fri Aug 11, 2006 8:24 am

sapius
I am a simple thinker, and prefer not to be included in any thing that even smells like an exclusively revered position or status. I cannot object to who values what for what reasons, but I value being alive, because I am.


I'm ok with a try being human.

I am a seeker of ‘understanding’, and in my experience, that is a very natural phenomenon and can happen, in different ways to different people. I’m not aware that it can be particularly attained through some method though.


there is no technique of spontaneity
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Postby Ankit Gupta » Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:02 am

Sapius wrote:I am a simple thinker, and prefer not to be included in any thing that even smells like an exclusively revered position or status. I cannot object to who values what for what reasons, but I value being alive, because I am.

Maybe not an exalted status, but a qualitative description nevertheless. As for example a skilful chess player. I like to think of enlightened people as skilful users and observers of the mind. And of what value is being alive? This is an inherent quality of the I(No big deal).

I am a seeker of ‘understanding’, and in my experience, that is a very natural phenomenon and can happen, in different ways to different people. I’m not aware that it can be particularly attained through some method though.

So you have experienced kundalini awakening. To which chakra did it reach. There are methods such as rajayoga, which target the kundalini specifically. In such traditions spine is divided into 7 chakras, with the top chakra being the brain. The enlightened man has this chakra energised(according to this system). Are you enlightened, if so did the kundalini reach the brain, in conjuction with the enlightenment.
No, it is not a myth. Will this suffice and quench your curiosity? I don’t think so, but on the other hand, it really cannot be understood if one has not even taken the first step of completely replacing his belief system with the conclusions reached through logical reasoning in and of existence, and most importantly, holds and retains each and every logically connected conclusions with stern convictions, but then again, there are those who actually believe that one can and has removed all delusions just through reasoning, but he has no idea as to how much of an emotional strength one needs to actually retain those convictions, at any and all given moments, hence live it. Once that happens, one actually stops actually asking questions, and if that happens to you, you will also not ask any questions as such, because hopefully after that you might then experience certain unexpected things on your own, and they come in many forms, that defy a four dimensional experiential logic, and gradually the circle of your logic expands because of your experience.
First you exalt logically gained convictions, then you say that the logic is defied, and the circle of logic expands. Do rationality and irrationality then merge, why begin with logic in the first place then? As for myself I prefer, empiricism.
I don’t think that is UG Krishnamurti; may be J Krishnamurti; because what I understand from what I know of UG is that he denies the existence of any such thing known or defined as “enlightenment”, (I understand in which context he says that), so how could he say “after enlightenment”? Could you please clarify that?
However, a constant or a temporary unexplained sense of fragrance being “sensed” is very much possible.

He refers to his enlightenement as the calamity. So replace enlightenement with calamity.
http://www.well.com/~jct/sage8.htm
If you search for the word feces or mago, the appropriate quote will show.
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Postby Ankit Gupta » Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:07 am

Wild Fox Zen wrote:I experienced an intense, but relatively minor kundalini rising. It didn't bust through the crown chakra, and I can't recall any enlightenment (having experienced that in a separate instance), just some fleeting ecstacy (I estimate about six hours), and a week-long endocrine burn-out. It's definitely not epilepsy, nor is it *caused* by enlightenment, but I can see how you might happen onto those associations.

Actually in the RajaYoga tradition it is said that if the kundalini goes through the crown chakra, enlightenment will result. This is a clear association of kundalini with enlightenemnt.
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Postby Ryan Rudolph » Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:20 am

Ankit Gupta wrote:

So you have experienced kundalini awakening. To which chakra did it reach. There are methods such as rajayoga, which target the kundalini specifically. In such traditions spine is divided into 7 chakras, with the top chakra being the brain. The enlightened man has this chakra energised(according to this system). Are you enlightened, if so did the kundalini reach the brain, in conjuction with the enlightenment.


Being concerned with the experiences of another man will actually thwart your own progress. Suppose Sapius did experience some of these things, what do you think this knowledge will do for you?

All it can do is become a cancer in your brain.

You will use it to compare yourself to him and create a superior image of Sapius because you’ll believe he has something you lack.

However this type of comparison is endarkening.

UG Krishnamurti was sloppy with his nostalgic notions of the calamity.

It creates the feeling of incompleteness based on something that you have no control over. You need to die to this desire of knowing the experiences of others.

The desire to understand another’s experience is a dead thing, it cannot help you.
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Postby Sapius » Sun Aug 13, 2006 4:04 am

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Ankit Gupta wrote:

So you have experienced kundalini awakening. To which chakra did it reach. There are methods such as rajayoga, which target the kundalini specifically. In such traditions spine is divided into 7 chakras, with the top chakra being the brain. The enlightened man has this chakra energised(according to this system). Are you enlightened, if so did the kundalini reach the brain, in conjuction with the enlightenment.


Being concerned with the experiences of another man will actually thwart your own progress. Suppose Sapius did experience some of these things, what do you think this knowledge will do for you?

All it can do is become a cancer in your brain.

You will use it to compare yourself to him and create a superior image of Sapius because you’ll believe he has something you lack.

However this type of comparison is endarkening.

UG Krishnamurti was sloppy with his nostalgic notions of the calamity.

It creates the feeling of incompleteness based on something that you have no control over. You need to die to this desire of knowing the experiences of others.

The desire to understand another’s experience is a dead thing, it cannot help you.


Exactly! Ankit.

If one chases a “word”, or the meaning, or a definition, or a description of something that may or must exist because others say so, then one becomes a believer. Wiping the slate clean and striving for Understanding for YOURSLEF is what one should aim for, which can only come if one thoroughly examines each and every known concept and what one experiences, logically. All that is needed is the passion to think, think, and think.

He (UG) refers to his enlightenement as the calamity. So replace enlightenement with calamity.

What "enlightenment"? What "calamity"? You are personally equating those words, not UG. And these words carry lofty and mysterious claims behind them. As far as I can see, thinking leads to understanding, realizing the facts, in its naked glory, that’s all.
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Postby Ankit Gupta » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:37 pm

cosmic_prostitute wrote:Being concerned with the experiences of another man will actually thwart your own progress. Suppose Sapius did experience some of these things, what do you think this knowledge will do for you?

I am coming out completely honest in my intentions. Posting on this board for me is not to gain anything on the spiritual journey, I would like to do this as a mental game, sometimes even playing the devil's advocate. My spiritual practise consists of detachment and observation(of the brain and body etc) in real time and real life situations, without any dogmatic notion whatseover. And, no I am not after any goal in there too, it is very interesting to live life from this perspective, and seems to be the best way available,( However, I myself know of only this approach and the other which is to take every emotion and thought at great value, which leads to a clumsy and unhappy life.)
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Postby Ankit Gupta » Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:42 pm

Sapius wrote:
If one chases a “word”, or the meaning, or a definition, or a description of something that may or must exist because others say so, then one becomes a believer. Wiping the slate clean and striving for Understanding for YOURSLEF is what one should aim for, which can only come if one thoroughly examines each and every known concept and what one experiences, logically. All that is needed is the passion to think, think, and think.

I did not find in my own experience that "think, think and think" leads to any bit of clarity. Thinking is a rather non innovative process, it keeps on rehashing the same old conditioned ideas. What is needed is to "observe" and "experiment" and set "right", what is "wrong". Further logic can do nothing if the premise is incorrect, which happens so often as having wrong ideas to begin with in the head(from conditioning).
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Postby Sapius » Mon Aug 14, 2006 3:33 am

Ankit Gupta wrote:
Sapius wrote:
If one chases a “word”, or the meaning, or a definition, or a description of something that may or must exist because others say so, then one becomes a believer. Wiping the slate clean and striving for Understanding for YOURSLEF is what one should aim for, which can only come if one thoroughly examines each and every known concept and what one experiences, logically. All that is needed is the passion to think, think, and think.

I did not find in my own experience that "think, think and think" leads to any bit of clarity. Thinking is a rather non innovative process, it keeps on rehashing the same old conditioned ideas. What is needed is to "observe" and "experiment" and set "right", what is "wrong". Further logic can do nothing if the premise is incorrect, which happens so often as having wrong ideas to begin with in the head(from conditioning).


Ankit, I really don’t know what to say. Either you did not understand what I said, or that you like to simply be one up. Essentially you are saying the same thing that I said, in different words though, and are NOT ready to accept that you ARE necessarily ‘thinking’ in even saying what you say, and somehow you find that useless.

I did not find in my own experience that "think, think and think" leads to any bit of clarity.


So in your opinion, would sitting under a tree, and “thinking” that “I” am Not thinking leads to clarity of thought - the ‘MIND’? Which necessarily means ‘thinking’ in the first place, and is not an ‘object’ in any sense of the word, and cannot be gotten rid of as long as you are a conscious thing. Reaching a supposed “non-conscious”, or “non-thinking” state is impossible, because, if at all one could be in such a state and knows about it, then he is necessarily aware of it, which necessarily means that he is conscious while assuming that he is not. A “non-thinking” state is not possible unless one is unconscious, and one can never be aware of unconsciousness. Have you ever been under anesthetics? Try it; you will know what I mean. Under a doctors supervision though, no drugs.

Thinking is a rather non innovative process, it keeps on rehashing the same old conditioned ideas. What is needed is to "observe" and "experiment" and set "right", what is "wrong".


Well, you just contradicted yourself in that, because, tell me, as far as human attributes go, (I take it you do consider yourself to be a human rather than a cow); once you have “observed”, what is involved in “experimentations” and setting things “right” from “wrong”? Instincts? Heavenly revelations?

Further logic can do nothing if the premise is incorrect, which happens so often as having wrong ideas to begin with in the head (from conditioning).


And how are you going to remove the preconditioning and SEE that the initial premises are wrong if you don’t THINK about and over THEM it self? Your conclusion, and may be thence rejection of “thinking” as a non-innovative tool also required some THINKING; if you cannot SEE THAT, then I can say nothing more.

To CP,

Ankit: I am coming out completely honest in my intentions. Posting on this board for me is not to gain anything on the spiritual journey, I would like to do this as a mental game, sometimes even playing the devil's advocate. My spiritual practise consists of detachment and observation(of the brain and body etc) in real time and real life situations, without any dogmatic notion whatseover. And, no I am not after any goal in there too, it is very interesting to live life from this perspective, and seems to be the best way available,( However, I myself know of only this approach and the other which is to take every emotion and thought at great value, which leads to a clumsy and unhappy life.)


If I may; in my opinion that is a fantistic approach, but what you fail to acknowledge, (may be it seems to me to be so), that you are not AWARE that thinking is necessarily involved to attain even some degree of ‘detachment’ itself, which comes AFTER ‘observations’, since you have THOUGHT over THEM.

Hence the sequence would be; observation -> thinking -> detachment (that is stepping out of your own shoes, IF you really can, which means shedding ALL egoistical attributes) -> RE-thinking with clarity-> new conclusions -> Realization -> End of story.
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Postby sschaula » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:04 am

Ankit Gupta wrote in the beginning of the thread,

I wonder if this notebook is a confirmation of the kundalini myths of yoga.


It shouldn't be a confirmation for you, because how do you know if Krishnamurti wasn't just making things up? Or perhaps he had a mental disorder. Unless you experience things for yourself, nothing should be confirmed.

It isn't like going to school and learning history, which you can then spout off as if you know something.

Matthew Alper points out in his book that some forms of epilepsy cause hyper-religiousness and mystical experiences.


Perhaps those instances are just the effects of higher levels of consciousness misdiagnosed as epilepsy. I wouldn't say that hyper religiousness can be caused by epilepsy...because what is causing the epilepsy? Perhaps it's hyper religiousness?

So I am wondering whether enlightenement leads to these strange and intense pains in the spine and head, which would give credence to the kundalini theory. Or Krishnamurti confused his epilepsy with the arising of the kundalini. Any comments? Did someone else also experienced these strange phenomenon concurrent with his/her enlightenment?


Anyone who becomes enlightened experiences the kundalini, because the signs and symptoms of kundalini is simply the physical effects of the enlightenment process. Perhaps someone that was very pure wouldn't experience the typical kundalini symptoms. Think of it like this - the kundalini is a purifier of the causes of delusion, and the symptoms (such as hearing a buzzing noise for instance) are the effects of the purification. When you're completely purified, there are no more effects of purification, so it could be said the kundalini is gone then.

I don't think of the kundalini as a precise thing, though. Some say it's an energy in the spine...I disagree with that. In fact, I try not to think of the kundalini at all anymore, because it's useless to think of it as a thing that purifies your body/mind, or as an energy. I prefer to think simply, that there are things which cause delusion and those things gradually dissolve, causing all sorts of strange experiences which usually can't be repeated.

To add onto that...any "mystical experience" is simply the body/mind being purified. It shouldn't be thought of as some state which you should attain. The enlightened state is already here, just covered over with all this shit. So when you get a glimpse of the enlightened state, or something close to it, it's not that great. It shouldn't be sought out.

Pain in the body, ringing in the ears, hypersensitivity, seeing ghosts...all those symptoms of a kundalini awakening are useless. They don't lead to enlightenment. They're just some things that you can experience "on the way".

Wild Fox Zen said,

I experienced an intense, but relatively minor kundalini rising. It didn't bust through the crown chakra, and I can't recall any enlightenment (having experienced that in a separate instance), just some fleeting ecstacy (I estimate about six hours), and a week-long endocrine burn-out. It's definitely not epilepsy, nor is it *caused* by enlightenment, but I can see how you might happen onto those associations.

This is definitely the wrong board to ask this. You'd get more relavent responses at an acupuncture or chi kung board--hell, even occultforums.com.

The people here probably have very little to no frame of reference for this sort of esotericism.


There aren't really body chakras. Sure, there are relative areas of the body which control certain mental aspects...but they usually change place, and their effects depend entirely on your state of mind at the time. So, it's best to not even think of 7 chakras on your spine. The energy doesn't even work that way...in my experience, it utilizes the entire nervous system...which is pretty much the entire body! And it doesn't necessarily rise up from the root to the top. Sometimes you can have a sensation in your hands, and no other area...sometimes only the throat...sometimes only the crown. During a big awakening, you may lose consciousness of your body as a specific thing because the energy will seem to melt you into everything else.

It's interesting you note the week long burn out...I had the same experience.

By the way, very few acupuncturists or chi kung people understand what happens with kundalini.

David wrote,

Most have people would have experienced a number of these symptoms throughout their lives, but they don't necessarily become any wiser through them.


That's because those are the symptoms. Like when you go into a restaurant and you smell a mouthwatering steak, it's not the smell you care about but the steak. So with the kundalini, it's not the manifestations which are important but what the kundalini is doing.

I'd say that kundalini is honesty. The more deeply honest you are with yourself, the more that you are purifying your body/mind. If you are being honest and see yourself doing something stupid, like hating someone for no good reason, and you actually contemplate and confront that stupidity...well that is the real work of kundalini. Not this crap about having mystical experiences.

So I would say: no, kundalini is unnecessary for the purpose of becoming enlightened.


I'd say it's totally necessary, but with all the stupid information out there about it it's basically rendered useless. Someone seeking enlightenment will definitely experience some weird things. Perhaps it's not good to label these things as "kundalini". There's too much useless crap about Hindu gods mixed in with this, where kundalini is the "descent of grace" and it is shakti "herself". Whatever.

I think the kundalini and the path can be summed up very simply: if you experience something weird, keep going.

Wild Fox Zen wrote,

The kundalini IS an enormous surge of bio-electric energy rushing straight up through your entire body and into your head. The rest may or not be sympotamatic, but are probably hinting at other types of chi emergence. And no, even kundalini, will not necesarily make you a wiser or better person. it will definitely make you different though.


There's always bio-electric energy rushing through the entire body. Sometimes you can experience it, and then a bunch of people call it "kundalini". Some say that once awakened, it's always awakened. Some say it awakens and goes back to sleep. Some say it doesn't exist.

I say let the person find out for themselves. A meditator will definitely experience some weird shit. I don't care what people call it. I don't think it's smart to make up some scientific system of thought as to what's happening. Shit happens! That's about as scientific as I prefer to get with this stuff. Some effects tend to stay a while, some last five seconds. All of that has nothing to do with enlightenment, though. Like I have said, they're just symptoms of purification. Purification of the body and mind...purification of the causes of delusion.

Ankit wrote,

I just wanted to know if there is such a thing at all or is it a myth?


If you want to figure it out then sit down and remain absolutely still until you reach enlightenment.

Ankit also wrote,

Actually in the RajaYoga tradition it is said that if the kundalini goes through the crown chakra, enlightenment will result. This is a clear association of kundalini with enlightenemnt.


Sometimes it's good to believe in what various traditions say, because it's the truth, and sometimes it's bad to believe in the things they say because it's not true. This should be obvious. So knowing that, what makes you believe in the Raja Yoga tradition...and specifically that idea?

I've known people who have had the kundalini go through the crown chakra. They weren't enlightened. One guy could raise it by willing it, and lower it when he wanted to come out of his heightened state. Personally, I experience tingles at the top of my head all of the time. Sometimes I have experiences where it's as if the mind flips inside out. This stuff has nothing to do with enlightenment..which is the absence of delusion in our day to day experiences. These mystical experiences are just the effects of purification. Having energy go through your crown may or may not cause a mystical state of mind. But even having a mystical state of mind isn't enlightenment. It's the same as having a stupid state of mind...it's still just fluctuating phenomenon.

Anyway, I personally say that all of this should be from your own experience. Don't take my word for it. I may be full of shit. Raja yoga may be full of shit. Just figure it out on your own. If you want to know about the kundalini, then meditate and figure out your body's energy pathways. Find the truth of it, not what someone says is there. Everyone may have different experiences...but truly, whatever experience you are having is the only worthwhile one. Something that isn't there, when someone says it's there, is completely useless to you.

Kind of like when the average Christian talks to you about heaven or hell.

...I hope this cleared up a little bit of confusion on kundalini for the posters of the board. If it only created more, let me know. My writing may seem a little frazzled and out of it...that's because for the past 10 days I've been at a mind numbing conference.
- Scott
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Postby Sapius » Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:23 am

My writing may seem a little frazzled and out of it...that's because for the past 10 days I've been at a mind numbing conference.


It’s good that you mentioned that, Scott. I was really beginning to worry.

I see that the conference was quite successful.

Welcome back :)
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