Krishnamurti: Kundalini or epilepsy

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Ah, thank you for the passive aggressive humor. I really love that. Especially over the internet, where it's so easy to understand what the person is actually saying.
- Scott
Ankit Gupta
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Post by Ankit Gupta »

sschaula wrote: Anyone who becomes enlightened experiences the kundalini, because the signs and symptoms of kundalini is simply the physical effects of the enlightenment process.
I'd say that kundalini is honesty. The more deeply honest you are with yourself, the more that you are purifying your body/mind. If you are being honest and see yourself doing something stupid, like hating someone for no good reason, and you actually contemplate and confront that stupidity...well that is the real work of kundalini. Not this crap about having mystical experiences.
Thanks Scott for some meaningful info about the matter. I myself have felt the bio electric energy througout the body, and specifically in the spine and the brain. It is there only with a deeply peaceful mind. However the experience is always mild and pleasant. In contrast, the classical description of kundalini seems frightening, like electric shocks and traumatic pains and aches and fear of death. My experience is one of pure and unadulterated bliss. And as it accompaines a calm and clear mind, I would say that someone enlightened ought to experience it a lot more than a normal person.
Ankit Gupta
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Post by Ankit Gupta »

Sapius wrote: Ankit, I really don’t know what to say. Either you did not understand what I said, or that you like to simply be one up. Essentially you are saying the same thing that I said, in different words though, and are NOT ready to accept that you ARE necessarily ‘thinking’ in even saying what you say, and somehow you find that useless.
Yes I thought that and, thereby wrote it. I see very clearly that conscious thinking is mostly noninnovative. However thinking can be innovative if applied steadily over a long period of time, even then the insights somehow seem to pop into the brain(this kind of thing works in the scientific theoretical pursuits). Maybe conscious thinking is slower than the unconscious thinking process, which is forced to process the thoughts if steadily kept in the conscious mind.
So in your opinion, would sitting under a tree, and “thinking” that “I” am Not thinking leads to clarity of thought - the ‘MIND’? Which necessarily means ‘thinking’ in the first place, and is not an ‘object’ in any sense of the word, and cannot be gotten rid of as long as you are a conscious thing. Reaching a supposed “non-conscious”, or “non-thinking” state is impossible, because, if at all one could be in such a state and knows about it, then he is necessarily aware of it, which necessarily means that he is conscious while assuming that he is not. A “non-thinking” state is not possible unless one is unconscious, and one can never be aware of unconsciousness. Have you ever been under anesthetics? Try it; you will know what I mean. Under a doctors supervision though, no drugs.
I equate thinking with using the logical portion of the mind. Is it then not possible to be conscious without thinking?
Well, you just contradicted yourself in that, because, tell me, as far as human attributes go, (I take it you do consider yourself to be a human rather than a cow); once you have “observed”, what is involved in “experimentations” and setting things “right” from “wrong”? Instincts? Heavenly revelations?
"Right" for me is graceful, effortless and painless, without contradictions, wrong is its opposite.
And how are you going to remove the preconditioning and SEE that the initial premises are wrong if you don’t THINK about and over THEM it self? Your conclusion, and may be thence rejection of “thinking” as a non-innovative tool also required some THINKING; if you cannot SEE THAT, then I can say nothing more.
Very easy to see what is wrong, observe it in real action and compare with the previous notions. Reality wins, where is the need of the conscious thought process in the whole equation.
brokenhead
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Post by brokenhead »

I am new to this forum, and like a bee to honey, like a fly to doggy doo-doo, I find myself drawn to this wonderful thread. The answer is yes, the coiled serpent of Kundalini is real. It resides at the base of your spine and it is as real as your arm or leg. I have seen my own uncoil and begin its journey upward through my sushumna, roughly, the etheric counterpart to the spinal column. This was discovered accidentally by myself while experimenting with a certain drug. As I was not a novice drug-user, I was able to discern what I was seeing from what is referred to as hallucination. There was structure and form which I immediately knew did not come from my own mind. I didn’t know what I was experiencing, but it was very clear and I was able to remember it. I then did research and encountered renderings of the chakras and Kundalini itself. The drawings are identical to what I had seen.
I then began a lengthy series of such experiments on myself to understand and perhaps “feel” or experience in some way the opening of my chakras.
Ankit, I will say this to you:
The chakras are real. Kundalini is real. Not all the “New Age” stuff you see and hear is hype.
I consider myself lucky. I am still alive. Read up on this before you attempt any kind of awakening. I can still feel the after-shocks of having my heart chakra opened; literally, my soul burst through a red ring of fire and lay on the other side shaken with the force and pleasure of an orgasm through my chest. The “pleasure” was nothing but a tremendous surge of pure love. Its purity made it seem unfamiliar and otherworldly, but love it surely was.
Be careful what you ask for. “Seek and ye shall find” is as much a warning as it is an exhortation.
And remember that Kundalini is not just any serpent, it is a cobra.
Last edited by brokenhead on Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Welcome to the board and this thread, brokenhead. You are probably more knowledgeable than myself. Care to write a good essay on kundalini?
- Scott
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David Quinn
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Post by David Quinn »

I wonder how much a role stress plays in the kundalini experience. It could be that it is something which only really happens to highly-stressed people, where the knotted stress within the body is suddenly unleashed.

This could easily shock the mind into an altered state of consciousness, just as drugs or a near-death experience sometimes can, which would explain why the connection with enlightenment is often falsely attributed to it.

I haven't yet met anyone who claims to have had a kundalini experience and is any wiser for it - and that includes Brokenhead above.

Brokenhead wrote:
I can still feel the after-shocks of having my heart chakra opened; literally, my soul burst through a red ring of fire and lay on the other side shaken with the force and pleasure of an orgasm through my chest.
Literally?

-
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

David,

I will give you my impressions, but I hope that others add theirs as well...
I wonder how much a role stress plays in the kundalini experience. It could be that it is something which only really happens to highly-stressed people, where the knotted stress within the body is suddenly unleashed.
I think a severe experience is caused by the knotted stress, but a kundalini experience doesn't need to always be so severe. Think of a stream of water flowing with no obstructions...the surface will be fairly calm. And now think of a stream with rocks in the midst of it...the surface will have a lot of ripples. It's the same way with our physiology. When there's an emotional obstruction (like stress) manifesting in the body, in the way of the flow of kundalini, it will undoubtedly be quite the experience to have to have the energy pierce through the obstruction.

When I had my major experience of the energy, and the state of consciousness that came along with it, it came after sitting absolutely still for as long as I could. I think the kundalini manifests itself in the body when you are completely unattached mentally...when you let go of absolutely everything. Complete surrender to God. The physical, tangible, energy expressions of this are simply the neuroimmunoendocrine response to this state of mind. That's all it is.

Which is why I personally believe that the end of the kundalini is perfect enlightenment. No more attachment to anything.

When people talk of orgasmic feelings in the body, it's simply hormones and chemicals being released. It's entirely rooted in human physiology, although it takes some open mindedness to see that your experiences of intense energy are simply chemical reactions taking place in your body. It gives insight into the process to read about and contemplate on how the body functions.

Basically, the flow of kundalini follows the bloodstream. It starts in the heart, goes all throughout the body, and ends in the heart via the vena cavae. Most believe the kundalini only flows up the spine to the crown, but many supposed enlightened people have said that it actually ends in the heart. The flow doesn't just follow the bloodstream, though. It's just that the bloodstream is on the same path as the flow. The flow is actually all of what makes up the body, neurons, skin...everything. When there are no obstructions to the flow, there is the end of kundalini and also perfection.
This could easily shock the mind into an altered state of consciousness, just as drugs or a near-death experience sometimes can, which would explain why the connection with enlightenment is often falsely attributed to it.
When I had my momentary shift in consciousness and energy, I was well aware that it wasn't enlightenment...but I began believing it. I posted to this forum that I was enlightened and couldn't achieve anything else (you may recall those times, David)...but really such great experiences are only that...experiences. There still exists our delusions to deal with.

That being said, I do believe the kundalini's path leads to enlightenment. Not just an experience, but an absolute reality...because the ego is only held up by delusions, and all delusions are destroyed with this flow of energy. That's why I posted before that kundalini is actually perfect honesty. It's not as simple as saying "I surrender" or "I am honest now". It takes a real ripping apart of yourself...a real testing moment in your life, to bring about this perfect honesty and surrender. The surrender which is parallel with the flow of energy in the body.

The path is long and hard. I'm definitely just a beginner, even though I've been on it for a few years now. I probably still don't understand it well enough. I had a guru recently, and that didn't work out. I'm sure there are people out there that have completed this path, though. The fact that literature and knowledge exist on the subject kind of proves it to be true.
I haven't yet met anyone who claims to have had a kundalini experience and is any wiser for it - and that includes Brokenhead above.
Yeah, like I said, I recently had this guru who didn't seem to work out for me. It becomes a game about power. She may have been enlightened, but sometimes you need to follow your heart and trust your gut instincts. Surrendering to the guru is just plain stupid, in my opinion. What should be surrendered is your control and self to God...and not your free will to another human being. So I've kind of forsaken the guru/chela mentality, and instead believe that all information should be free and if someone is enlightened they should act as more of a help line. Someone to go to if you have questions, regardless of what they are. Someone to go to for help if you need it, who asks nothing of you. Someone who doesn't require anything from you for their services.

If I ever figure it all out, I hope to become this ideal helper that I'm imagining. I think it wouldn't hinder anyone's progress.
Brokenhead wrote:

I can still feel the after-shocks of having my heart chakra opened; literally, my soul burst through a red ring of fire and lay on the other side shaken with the force and pleasure of an orgasm through my chest.

David asked:

Literally?
Although I hope Brokenhead gives his own input, but I can answer that question as well...yes! These are actual feelings percieved in the body. Like I said, they're due to chemical and hormonal reactions.

Just think: when something touches you and you percieve it, it's entirely because of the nerves and neurons in your skin. If you put your hand in a fire you feel something different. Certain chemicals, hormones and various other things are released by the body and create a reaction to the stimulus. You get more blood flow to the area, endorphins to deal with the pain of the damaged nerves, defensive and repairing cells, etc...this is all experienced and percieved by you.

When your mind state changes, so does your physiology. Someone who's always under stress mentally develops high blood pressure. They become addicted to their own adrenaline, and tend to seek out more stressful situations if they're not stimulated more. Look at PTSD and soldiers. Most want to go back into the combat, because they can't deal with being a boring useless civilian. They can't sleep at night because of the excess chemicals and hormones in their body that are there to help cope with stress.

It only makes sense knowing this that the wise and serene person will be perfectly healthy. And the perfectly healthy person will be closer to wisdom and serenity, than a person full of diseases. I think even the stupidest people are aware of this, because people are all unconsciously attracted to healthy individuals.

Thinking about truth, without the necessary total shift in consciousness, so that all obstructions to truth are gone, doesn't result in people being attracted to you. It makes you lonely.

But it's said that one of the traits of a Buddha is that people follow him.

Hope you got something out of this, David.
- Scott
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

sschaula wrote:Ah, thank you for the passive aggressive humor. I really love that. Especially over the internet, where it's so easy to understand what the person is actually saying.
Don't take a jest to heart, Scott. :)

Thoughtful discourses on “kundalini”, but I take it you have yet to experience much more, IF, what you experience is really what you have experienced as of now. If and when the 'more' comes along, THEN, your present assumptions of how it just permeates ones "body" will take on a different outlook.

It IS an evolutionary phenomenon, but the experience you speak of, is not all that there is to it, and it is not just that experience that creates non-attachment, but what one makes of it logically, but not until one goes a bit more further in literal experiences, which makes ones present logic expand, and Realize non-attachment, again logically.
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brokenhead
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Post by brokenhead »

In almost all of the literature I have read concerning the Inner Self and how humans have strived to perfect It, extreme caution is urged upon anyone attempting to "arouse" the serpent of Kundalini from its natural repose. I should point out that I am acutely unqualified to guide anyone in this area, but maybe a couple of observations would be permissible. We are talking of the mechanics of what makes us who and what we are. Just as you don't need ever to lift the hood of your car in order to drive it, you do not have to tinker with Kundalini in order to become enlightened. If you have a religion, you can follow it, just do it seriously and joyfully at once. If you do not have a religion, you can either get one or follow a Theosophical path. In fact, the Theosophical Society has been publishing learned works for over a hundred years. In other words, we live in a society. My own experience has cost me socially because I was tinkering under the hood on my own, as it were. If you are really and truly fearless, you may make similar mistakes. I seem to "sense" reality more intensely since enlivening my chakras. It is often called "cleansing" the chakras in the literature and you do feel spiritually "shower-fresh." It may make you reluctant to get dirty again. I am only now learning how to shut out some of the din of the world and function in society again. Dirt is a fact of life. And when I say only now, I mean after a time-frame of many years.
I, myself, do have a religion. So I'll quote the Bible here: "Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom." I think you are on the way to becoming enlightened when you know that it's only the beginning of wisdom, because that's just us - He wants us to love Him rather than fear Him.
brokenhead
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Post by brokenhead »

I hope I didn't kill this thread by mentioning God.
sky
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Post by sky »

i think i had a kundalini experience

i had just left my chiropractor and i was riding my bike and i was stopped for a light both feet on the ground

and i thought to myself i feel amazingly wonderful and i was trying to think if i had ever felt this way before and the next thing i knew i was lying on the sidewalk with my bike on top of me and with a broken wrist

it did not make me enlightened but it did bring home the fact of my mortality

i was totally shocked to discover i was breakable
brokenhead
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Post by brokenhead »

...what?? We're breakable???!!?!?

That sounds like a Kundalini experience. Theosophist literature draws attention to the possibility of accidentally triggering a release of the coiled Kundalini force, usually occurring after a physical fall.
sky
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Post by sky »

sschaula
It only makes sense knowing this that the wise and serene person will be perfectly healthy. And the perfectly healthy person will be closer to wisdom and serenity, than a person full of diseases. I think even the stupidest people are aware of this, because people are all unconsciously attracted to healthy individuals.

Thinking about truth, without the necessary total shift in consciousness, so that all obstructions to truth are gone, doesn't result in people being attracted to you. It makes you lonely.

But it's said that one of the traits of a Buddha is that people follow him.
oh yes i agree

absolute peace and serenity would be radiance literally

in light meant
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

I've had more experiences, which I'd like to share about. I will put them into categories.

Mind - I'm less attached to things. I take life head on...whereas normally if I would see a very attractive girl I would probably get nervous, now I just look at her and...well not much happens. I just see an attractive girl. Or if I'm talking to my mom and she is nagging me, I don't automatically get mad. I have become more aware of my unconscious tendencies, and as a result they've slipped off a bit. I still have attachments and unconscious tendencies of course, but it seems to me that my yoga practice (see the links below...I don't mean merely doing postures) will do the trick in taking me all the way to non-attachment.

My mind becomes very easily absorbed in things...very one-pointed. It's as if the rest of the world falls away.

I have a lingering peacefulness...perhaps somewhat as a result of less attachments and irrational undercurrents. But I think it's also as a result of the blissful feelings that I feel in my body.

Body - You know when you get the feeling of the butterflies? When you're truly excited about something, or nervous? Well the feelings I have are kind of like that...except very joy-giving/invigorating/calming. For example, I was in my swimming class doing the breaststroke, and I started laughing because it felt so good...and also because I was having a mini-realization about how odd it is for reality to be doing the breaststroke. These good feelings travel throughout my whole body...mainly the hands, heart, genitals, feet, and third eye. I also get tingly feelings on my head....as if someone were touching my hair gently.

I've also had intense experiences. I was doing kechari (in the links below) and it seemed to open up a passageway for energy in my chest/throat/middle of head area which then could pick up on the sounds of electrical currents in the house I was at. As a result of that, my stomach became very bloated, my feces became bubbly, my urine very yellow despite drinking a lot of water, and my mind "up in the clouds".

I've experienced chemicals being released in the brain which act much like crystal meth (I know because I've taken it a couple of times). This was when I was dealing with the guru lady. Obviously I couldn't get to sleep with this happening, and funny thing is that it happened whenever I layed down. Not so funny at the time. It sucked. Anyway...you know how when you lay on the ground at night, it sucks up your heat? Well I tried to get closer to the ground, by laying on my wooden porch...and I finally got a couple hours of rest.

I experienced the same crystal meth type chemical release a few other times...one was when I was listening to the radio and the pope started talking in german. I had to shut it off because it was getting too intense and I was trying to drive.

This was mainly due, in my opinion, to improper yoga practice. After taking a month long break, during which the kundalini never stopped but simply chilled out, I've been able to start practices again and have no ill effects. Even the crystal meth type experience turned into a better one, because when I get that same type of energy flow, it simply makes me more conscious/awake/present. It doesn't take away my sleep or make me feel like I'm on drugs.

During my break, I experimented with QiGong and came back to yoga with very good techniques on how to handle excess energy, as well as insights on how to maintain better health.

Alright here is the first link, describing the type of yoga I do:
http://santosha.com/philosophy/hathayog ... pter1.html

It takes a lot of background knowledge to practice this stuff. This one book isn't all that you need. For instance, all of chapter 2: on Pranayama is useless without BKS Iyengar's book "Light on Pranayama"...in my opinion, it's dangerous. Also, the proper use of mudras are hard to figure out without the help of someone who's been-there-done-that...which is why I offer this website:
http://www.aypsite.com
Which is very useful on its own. It contains mostly all of the Hatha Yoga Pradipika in its lessons, and it goes step by step. There is a forum, which is useful to learn the intricacies of the practices from other people who have more experience under their belts. I use the forums there quite a bit.

Anyway if this stuff sparks your interest, look into it a bit. Ask me questions if you want to know anything.
- Scott
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Seizures, if they go on for too long, harm parts of the brain and cause one to lose intelligence, not gain any. Seizures and the effects of drugs have similarities, so it could be similar to one having a feeling of expanded conciousness after the use of a drug when in fact the opposite is true. It is possible that the kunkalini experience is similar or quite different, but how would one know for sure?

David wrote:
I wonder how much a role stress plays in the kundalini experience. It could be that it is something which only really happens to highly-stressed people, where the knotted stress within the body is suddenly unleashed.
Stress can do interesting things in the mental realm. It used to be that when I was under extreme stress for about a week, I would hear other people's thoughts. It was their real thoughts, not something I thought I heard, because I would answer them as if they had spoken aloud, and they would look frightened as they asked how I knew they were thinking that. I don't get that stressed out anymore.
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Scott wrote:
then could pick up on the sounds of electrical currents in the house I was at. As a result of that, my stomach became very bloated, my feces became bubbly, my urine very yellow despite drinking a lot of water, and my mind "up in the clouds".
"sounds of electrical currents" could be tinnitus, and that and the rest of they symptoms sound like a mild form of poisoning. Are you sure it wasn't just some bad fish or something?
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Elizabeth,
Seizures, if they go on for too long, harm parts of the brain and cause one to lose intelligence, not gain any.
Agreed. Kundalini isn't related to seizures or epillepsy.
Seizures and the effects of drugs have similarities, so it could be similar to one having a feeling of expanded conciousness after the use of a drug when in fact the opposite is true.
Well, since I don't take drugs and I'm not epilleptic...I'd say that my perceptions of increased conscious activity are pretty legitimate. I think if I were to be hooked up to a brainwave sensor, there'd be a lot of activity in the upper levels of the waking state (Alpha brainwaves).
It is possible that the kunkalini experience is similar or quite different, but how would one know for sure?
I guess only by experiencing it for themselves, and at the same time applying modern scientific principles to the experiences. I'm quite sure that the increased wakefulness is due to some sort of hormone being released.
Stress can do interesting things in the mental realm. It used to be that when I was under extreme stress for about a week, I would hear other people's thoughts. It was their real thoughts, not something I thought I heard, because I would answer them as if they had spoken aloud, and they would look frightened as they asked how I knew they were thinking that. I don't get that stressed out anymore.
Good. Sometimes it's more than enough to hear our own thoughts.
"sounds of electrical currents" could be tinnitus
This point I want to make very clear...I know with absolute certainty that it is not tinnitus. This sound originated from my heart area, and through the spinal nerve into the space between my ears. That's where the sound was "heard". I could also hear the subtle sound in each ear, which is generally due to blood vessels being close to the tympanic membrane...not earwax. My ear canals are quite clean and open. Also I don't listen to loud music.

But like I said, the sound in the spine (hearing the electrical hum of the tv in that specific room) could be seperated experientially from the subtle rushing sounds in the ears.

I guess you have to experience it to know what it's like.
and that and the rest of they symptoms sound like a mild form of poisoning. Are you sure it wasn't just some bad fish or something?
No, I was eating my regular stuff. My yoga practices had intensified, to the point where I was purifying quite a bit. I am almost certain that this is the case, because lately I've been experiencing the same things after upping my practices again.

These practices do strange things to the body internally. Air gets trapped in the abdominal region...semen is drawn upwards...cerebro spinal fluid can drip down from above the nasal cavity and you can get a taste on the back of your tongue that's sweet from out of nowhere. All are just signs that it's doing what it's supposed to.
- Scott
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