Obviously you believe you know why what I said is BS. Telling me it's BS without sharing the why is useless to me and to anyone else. In the future, if you cannot share the why, do not bother responding to my posts.SeekerOfWisdom wrote:more BS.movingalways wrote:Russell, jupiviv, Beingof1, in trying to define consciousness you are breaking the cardinal rule of wisdom of the infinite which is that there is no objective or absolute reality. The moment you cherry-pick a concept such as consciousness, turn it into an object for your subjective interpretation, the truth of emptiness and impermanence is forgotten and worlds of subjective attachment arise, ergo the 'battle' for right view of consciousness.
The one way to keep oneself in check (and its not an easy task!) is to be mindful of when one is focusing on a word (an object) exclusive of all words (objects)
The nature of consciousness
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Re: The nature of consciousness
- Russell Parr
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Re: The nature of consciousness
Let me rephrase that, does the existence of things require consciousness? As in some awareness of any sort.jupiviv wrote:Yes, since consciousness is by definition unaware of countless things at any given moment. You have said as much in this thread itself, so what's the problem?Russell Parr wrote:Do you still believe that things exist regardless if consciousness is aware of it?
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Re: The nature of consciousness
Because you write things like this: "is useless to me".movingalways wrote:why what I said is BS.
less you're joking around?
Re: The nature of consciousness
This questions means either a) is awareness qua awareness a specific cause that necessarily causes the existence of a finite thing? b) is an awareness of any sort, at any point of time, the cause of other finite things *regardless* of whether it is aware of them?Russell Parr wrote:Let me rephrase that, does the existence of things require consciousness? As in some awareness of any sort.jupiviv wrote:Yes, since consciousness is by definition unaware of countless things at any given moment. You have said as much in this thread itself, so what's the problem?Russell Parr wrote:Do you still believe that things exist regardless if consciousness is aware of it?
To a) I would answer in the negative, and to b) in the positive.
P.S. @ Seeker: since you think things are constantly impermanent appearances that appear, it might be time for you to appear to be the appearance of a functional adult instead of - apparently - an 8 year old girl throwing a passive-aggressive tantrum.
- Russell Parr
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Re: The nature of consciousness
This appears to be an offering of your subjective interpretation to the object of our discussion. Are you keeping yourself in check within this response? If so, how certain are you that none of us are?movingalways wrote:Russell, jupiviv, Beingof1, in trying to define consciousness you are breaking the cardinal rule of wisdom of the infinite which is that there is no objective or absolute reality. The moment you cherry-pick a concept such as consciousness, turn it into an object for your subjective interpretation, the truth of emptiness and impermanence is forgotten and worlds of subjective attachment arise, ergo the 'battle' for right view of consciousness.
The one way to keep oneself in check (and its not an easy task!) is to be mindful of when one is focusing on a word (an object) exclusive of all words (objects).
- Russell Parr
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Re: The nature of consciousness
I see you trying to wiggle out of this. You're basically saying you can be aware of something without being aware of it.jupiviv wrote:b) is an awareness of any sort, at any point of time, the cause of other finite things *regardless* of whether it is aware of them?
Can you admit when you're wrong? Don't let pride, or your disdain for others, get the best of you.
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Re: The nature of consciousness
This is not telling me why.SeekerOfWisdom wrote:Because you write things like this: "is useless to me".movingalways wrote:why what I said is BS.
less you're joking around?
- Russell Parr
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Re: The nature of consciousness
Being, I think I'll just reiterate a point I made before.
What you call consciousness, I see as simply the Totality, or the All. What the "infinite membrane" is to you, is infinite causality to me.
The error that I see in your labelings is that you are giving Ultimate Reality a definitive form. This violates the first rule of the knowledge of the Tao, that being, the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. If you were to say that your labelings are merely metaphors or illustrations of what reality is, I could go for that. But this just isn't so, is it?
What it comes down to is a desire to project your physical likeness unto the whole of Reality. It really isn't much different than the Christian concept of God. They say God created man in his image, but we all know that far more often than not, it's the other way around. You may have a better understanding of reality than the average fundamentalist, but your adherence to these labels keep you from relinquishing your ego.
God has no image. He cannot be fathomed or labeled, and all such attempts are done so in vain.
What you call consciousness, I see as simply the Totality, or the All. What the "infinite membrane" is to you, is infinite causality to me.
The error that I see in your labelings is that you are giving Ultimate Reality a definitive form. This violates the first rule of the knowledge of the Tao, that being, the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao. If you were to say that your labelings are merely metaphors or illustrations of what reality is, I could go for that. But this just isn't so, is it?
What it comes down to is a desire to project your physical likeness unto the whole of Reality. It really isn't much different than the Christian concept of God. They say God created man in his image, but we all know that far more often than not, it's the other way around. You may have a better understanding of reality than the average fundamentalist, but your adherence to these labels keep you from relinquishing your ego.
God has no image. He cannot be fathomed or labeled, and all such attempts are done so in vain.
Re: The nature of consciousness
OK - I am done being 'nice'. I am dealing with slowpokes and I feel like I am doing sign language to monkeys.
I have two points - and only two points, can you handle that?
Its only two now do try to focus.
1) You cannot overturn or argue logically unless you understand what it is you are arguing against. It is not you that is proposing this theory -it is I.
You do not completely redefine the theory - that is my job - you argue against it.
I certainly hope that penetrated.
2) Looking for consciousness in the brain is like looking for the radio announcer in the radio. Consciousness is an electromagnetic wave function ie. the photon in conversion to particles.
Now - do try to understand what it is you are arguing against.
Thank you - this has been a public service announcement
I have two points - and only two points, can you handle that?
Its only two now do try to focus.
1) You cannot overturn or argue logically unless you understand what it is you are arguing against. It is not you that is proposing this theory -it is I.
You do not completely redefine the theory - that is my job - you argue against it.
I certainly hope that penetrated.
2) Looking for consciousness in the brain is like looking for the radio announcer in the radio. Consciousness is an electromagnetic wave function ie. the photon in conversion to particles.
Now - do try to understand what it is you are arguing against.
Thank you - this has been a public service announcement
Re: The nature of consciousness
I already do this -I always do this - I have been trying to show this in my entire discussion in this thread - I have made this point several times - as in over and over.movingalways wrote:Russell, jupiviv, Beingof1, in trying to define consciousness you are breaking the cardinal rule of wisdom of the infinite which is that there is no objective or absolute reality. The moment you cherry-pick a concept such as consciousness, turn it into an object for your subjective interpretation, the truth of emptiness and impermanence is forgotten and worlds of subjective attachment arise, ergo the 'battle' for right view of consciousness.
The one way to keep oneself in check (and its not an easy task!) is to be mindful of when one is focusing on a word (an object) exclusive of all words (objects).
I taught you this - but you will never admit that.
Re: The nature of consciousness
Maybe we can work something out.Russell Parr wrote:Being, I think I'll just reiterate a point I made before.
What you call consciousness, I see as simply the Totality, or the All. What the "infinite membrane" is to you, is infinite causality to me.
Then why did you say Tao?The error that I see in your labelings is that you are giving Ultimate Reality a definitive form. This violates the first rule of the knowledge of the Tao, that being, the Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.
We should stone you for breaking the first rule of knowledge.
Consciousness is really real.If you were to say that your labelings are merely metaphors or illustrations of what reality is, I could go for that. But this just isn't so, is it?
All I see is other than one time - you avoiding, changing the dialogue and attributing logic to fantasy rather than addressing the points.What it comes down to is a desire to project your physical likeness unto the whole of Reality. It really isn't much different than the Christian concept of God. They say God created man in his image, but we all know that far more often than not, it's the other way around. You may have a better understanding of reality than the average fundamentalist, but your adherence to these labels keep you from relinquishing your ego.
The summation of your argument on most points - "Cause and effect did it." - sincerely Russell
I know that - you honestly - really and truly - do not think I get that?God has no image. He cannot be fathomed or labeled, and all such attempts are done so in vain.
I am really dealing with wanna be types.
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Re: The nature of consciousness
From this thread:Beingof1 wrote:I already do this -I always do this - I have been trying to show this in my entire discussion in this thread - I have made this point several times - as in over and over.movingalways wrote:Russell, jupiviv, Beingof1, in trying to define consciousness you are breaking the cardinal rule of wisdom of the infinite which is that there is no objective or absolute reality. The moment you cherry-pick a concept such as consciousness, turn it into an object for your subjective interpretation, the truth of emptiness and impermanence is forgotten and worlds of subjective attachment arise, ergo the 'battle' for right view of consciousness.
The one way to keep oneself in check (and its not an easy task!) is to be mindful of when one is focusing on a word (an object) exclusive of all words (objects).
I taught you this - but you will never admit that.
You do not know consciousness designs the brain, you do not know what designs the brain, no one knows what designs the brain. You believe you know. This is a perfect example of objectifying a concept (object) and building a subjective world around this object, leading one to mistakenly identify their self-knowledge as truth.Beingof1: Let me think here; consciousness designed your brain, body and central nervous system of which is at the bare minimum 10,000 more times complex than a space shuttle - which you could not hope to design - but you are absolutely positive - I am the one not getting it?
Given that my previous subjective-objective view of consciousness is in no way related to your current subjective-objective view of consciousness, it is not logical to assume that you taught me anything about consciousness. Look at how you worded your ego/self-declaration about being my teacher - as an absolute truth - to the point where you set me up to be viewed as a liar - "I taught you this - but you will never admit that."
The only definitions that have any value on the road to wisdom of the infinite are those that point out that metaphysical concepts such as consciousness have no objective or absolute status whatsoever. Trying then, to define their nature (what they do or don't do) is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.Beingof1: Consciousness is really real.
Re: The nature of consciousness
Movingalways:
So - in order for you to be in the know - you will have to drop the belief that you can never know, don`t ya know.
In fact - I can prove - with no wiggle room for doubt one iota that consciousness designed reality itself and I can do that by only what is self evident.
I only add science for clarity, assistance and analogies.
That is called illumination.
Like I said - you wont admit it until you see clearly who and what you are.
Consciousness is not a concept - call it life force - call it Spirit - call it universal awareness - call it the Tao - call it God or call it what and who you are.
You - like everyone else are again accusing me of what you are doing.
All hung up on the 'words' and who taught who.
I really and truly do know - without a doubt with not a bit of wriggle room but you do not know so you believe no one else can.You do not know consciousness designs the brain, you do not know what designs the brain, no one knows what designs the brain.
So - in order for you to be in the know - you will have to drop the belief that you can never know, don`t ya know.
In fact - I can prove - with no wiggle room for doubt one iota that consciousness designed reality itself and I can do that by only what is self evident.
I only add science for clarity, assistance and analogies.
Nope - this is a perfect example of you not knowing who and what you are.You believe you know. This is a perfect example of objectifying a concept (object) and building a subjective world around this object, leading one to mistakenly identify their self-knowledge as truth.
That is called illumination.
Uh huh - you should look at how you countered - everything you accused me of - you are doing.Given that my previous subjective-objective view of consciousness is in no way related to your current subjective-objective view of consciousness, it is not logical to assume that you taught me anything about consciousness. Look at how you worded your ego/self-declaration about being my teacher - as an absolute truth - to the point where you set me up to be viewed as a liar - "I taught you this - but you will never admit that."
Like I said - you wont admit it until you see clearly who and what you are.
I have only done this through the entire thread but you are all hung up on terminology.The only definitions that have any value on the road to wisdom of the infinite are those that point out that metaphysical concepts such as consciousness have no objective or absolute status whatsoever. Trying then, to define their nature (what they do or don't do) is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.
Consciousness is not a concept - call it life force - call it Spirit - call it universal awareness - call it the Tao - call it God or call it what and who you are.
You - like everyone else are again accusing me of what you are doing.
All hung up on the 'words' and who taught who.
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Re: The nature of consciousness
My turn.SeekerOfWisdom wrote:To me it seems that the order goes something like this: gustav/rod/being>jupiviv> Russell >diebert>moving.
Looking in at the GF neighborhood swimming pool, we see an variety of different characters.
Outside the fence looking in is Beingof1, trying to persuade everyone to go with him to the pool down the street.
Gustav is the emo kid, who sticks his toes in the waters and immediately withdraws, complaining about the water temperature or the chlorine levels.
Seeker is the youngling wading around in the shallow area, pretending he's in the deep end because he toes barely brushes the bottom.
Jupiviv is the teenager trying to get into the deep end but can't quite figure out how to get around the child barrier.
Moving is resting calmly at the bottom of the deep end, seeing how long she can hold her breath.
Diebert is also at the deep end, ascending and descending, splashing water at others.
Re: The nature of consciousness
We can be aware of the things of which we are unaware as a *category*. This category is a mental construction which is by definition not identical to the things it refers to.Russell Parr wrote:I see you trying to wiggle out of this. You're basically saying you can be aware of something without being aware of it.jupiviv wrote:b) is an awareness of any sort, at any point of time, the cause of other finite things *regardless* of whether it is aware of them?
And yet you're the one pulling the age card.Can you admit when you're wrong? Don't let pride, or your disdain for others, get the best of you.
- Russell Parr
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Re: The nature of consciousness
What is a thing but a categorization?jupiviv wrote:We can be aware of the things of which we are unaware as a *category*. This category is a mental construction which is by definition not identical to the things it refers to.
Oh, just having a little fun. You know, working on that sense of humor :)jupiviv wrote:And yet you're the one pulling the age card.
Re: The nature of consciousness
What is a categorisation but a thing?Russell Parr wrote:What is a thing but a categorization?jupiviv wrote:We can be aware of the things of which we are unaware as a *category*. This category is a mental construction which is by definition not identical to the things it refers to.
Sure gramps!Oh, just having a little fun. You know, working on that sense of humor :)jupiviv wrote:And yet you're the one pulling the age card.
- Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The nature of consciousness
But things means also way more things like: "object or entity that is not or cannot be named specifically".jupiviv wrote:What is a categorisation but a thing?Russell Parr wrote:What is a thing but a categorization?
Although there are more definitions, it most of all means that "thing" is almost by definition uncategorised and unspecific. But a category is nearly the opposite of that in terms of the function of the word. Your first need things before you can organize those into composite things.
While it is trivially true that a category is a "thing" and it's also true that to have a thing, there's already a category of not having "nothing", I do think I object to both of you, Russel and Jup, when it comes to these categories. A thing is a finite referent to the infinite of causality. But how to refer to something which isn't a thing? Where does the arrow point to?
Re: The nature of consciousness
Hence the general category of those things.Diebert van Rhijn wrote:But things means also way more things like: "object or entity that is not or cannot be named specifically".jupiviv wrote:What is a categorisation but a thing?Russell Parr wrote:What is a thing but a categorization?
The category is distinct from the category of known things. Nor is it a "composite" thing formed of unknown things, if that's your implication.Although there are more definitions, it most of all means that "thing" is almost by definition uncategorised and unspecific. But a category is nearly the opposite of that in terms of the function of the word. Your first need things before you can organize those into composite things.
Er...are you asking me how that's done or why I have tried to do that? Well, it can't be done nor have I tried to do it.But how to refer to something which isn't a thing? Where does the arrow point to?
- Diebert van Rhijn
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Re: The nature of consciousness
What I mean is that "thing" is not a category simply because there's no other category of non-things. Because then this new category would still be a thing, falling under the other category again: regression! A category is simple a thing-as-container. Which all identifications are. The object as container for assigned properties. Assigning properties to anything implies creating a container for it. In that sense a thing is nothing but a categorization.jupiviv wrote:The category is distinct from the category of known things. Nor is it a "composite" thing formed of unknown things, if that's your implication.Although there are more definitions, it most of all means that "thing" is almost by definition uncategorised and unspecific. But a category is nearly the opposite of that in terms of the function of the word. Your first need things before you can organize those into composite things.
Is a categorization not another thing? No, since such a thing does not exist without just being the categorization. And that would be a meaningless tautology. You still seem to believe "things" exist and are busy justifying "physical things" as some absolute reality, as if the finite would in any way represent the infinite or equal it. But only in some extremely illusionary way it does. It needs to be addressed considering the purpose of the forum.
Obviously you do nothing but. It cannot be any other way.Well, it can't be done nor have I tried to do it.But how to refer to something which isn't a thing? Where does the arrow point to?
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Re: The nature of consciousness
Heheheh. I can see why you see me in this way, but of course, as we know, no one can hold their breath. Been there, done that. Turning blue and gasping a lot - don't recommend it to anyone, but I suspect it is a common symptom of the death knell of ignorance. Thank god for the coming of wisdom. Wisdom is the breath within the breath. Perhaps you don't find my words to be of wisdom, fair enough; each of us must answer that question for ourselves.Russell: Moving is resting calmly at the bottom of the deep end, seeing how long she can hold her breath.
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Re: The nature of consciousness
You're just proved that consciousness is a concept by interchanging it with six other concepts. Alfred Korzybski: "The map is not the territory."Beingof1: Consciousness is not a concept - call it life force - call it Spirit - call it universal awareness - call it the Tao - call it God or call it what and who you are.
It was you who said you taught me. Clear as a bell.All hung up on the 'words' and who taught who.
- Russell Parr
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Re: The nature of consciousness
This is all I'm really concerned with. Is the relative being mistaken for the absolute? A part of me thinks that Jup already gets this, deep down, but that we're still stuck in "battle mode." Part of his argument seems to be that of "we cannot escape the relative," and this is true, and some of my language might have seemed to imply otherwise. This I admit. But is the latter argument (we cannot escape the relative) being used to defend the former (relative=absolute)? This would be an error.Diebert van Rhijn wrote:You still seem to believe "things" exist and are busy justifying "physical things" as some absolute reality, as if the finite would in any way represent the infinite or equal it.
- Russell Parr
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Re: The nature of consciousness
:) The whole thing was loosely done, not to be taken too seriously. Being in the deep end at all signifies wisdom, btw. Glad you found humor in it.movingalways wrote:Heheheh. I can see why you see me in this way, but of course, as we know, no one can hold their breath. Been there, done that. Turning blue and gasping a lot - don't recommend it to anyone, but I suspect it is a common symptom of the death knell of ignorance. Thank god for the coming of wisdom. Wisdom is the breath within the breath. Perhaps you don't find my words to be of wisdom, fair enough; each of us must answer that question for ourselves.
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Re: The nature of consciousness
In as far one identifies with a relative, imaginary being, the relative can of course not be escaped. It's the most obvious thing there is! It remains truth as long as we see us as part or thing in some ocean full of interrelated parts and things: everything remains absolute and everywhere. For a creature of the ocean, the ocean is everything. As long as the creature forbids itself to conceive of land and sky.Russell Parr wrote:Part of his argument seems to be that of "we cannot escape the relative," and this is true, and some of my language might have seemed to imply otherwise. This I admit. But is the latter argument (we cannot escape the relative) being used to defend the former (relative=absolute)? This would be an error.
It reminds me of a fraction of a post from member called DEL, which he posted in 2003 at this forum. I actually just came across it as I was not at the forum at the time. It's something I wrote about as well a few times in those very same terms. Posters like him were the reason I signed up at the time, it had nothing to do with the administration although I came to appreciate their work a bit more over the years. However, Del remains raw.
- Truely centered and powerful women just smile at mans attempt to fully comprehend reality. She is reality.
Truely centered and powerful men just smile at womens attempt to understand spirituality. He is spirituality.