The Century of the Self

[Dennis Mahar]

'In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone.'

That's the big power move for the victim.
The one the scoundrel pulls out of the hat as a last resort.
Kunga's 'big' move as well.

bleed like a stuck pig from gaping wounds and suddenly it's all about the love; put in to play as if there doesn't exist any intelligence to spot that shimmy.

Diebert,
when you name him artiste he gets a massive wank out of it.
I daresay, what you mean, that escapes him, is the distinction 'dilettante'.
braindead
space cadet

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Diebert, when you name him artiste he gets a massive wank out of it. I daresay, what you mean, that escapes him, is the distinction 'dilettante'.

That's closer to the mark, Dennis. I'm not that always good with the words when it comes to it. Perhaps I was thinking of the vulgar Latin "arse" :-) Certainly I'd say he has unusual skill in dramatic writing styles, in a way I'd praise a technician. Philosophically I use "art" more like others would use "kitsch" I suppose, sentimental art. But you're right I shouldn't confuse anyone with this term anymore.

[Dennis Mahar]

That's closer to the mark, Dennis. I'm not that always good with the words when it comes to it. Perhaps I was thinking of the vulgar Latin "arse" :-) Certainly I'd say he has unusual skill in dramatic writing styles, in a way I'd praise a technician. Philosophically I use "art" more like others would use "kitsch" I suppose, sentimental art. But you're right I shouldn't confuse anyone with this term anymore.

He only knows the vicious circle.
of course he's got it down pat.

his 'potty training' sure takes a long time.
some guys spend decades in 'boot camp'.
keep up the good work Diebert.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

'In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone.' ---St John of the Cross

A nice demonstration between dilettante Alex G. Jacob and an aspiring translator of the crafts as myself might be the following actual quote, spending five minutes looking it up instead or ripping some Hello Kitty Quote webpage in five seconds.

From Saying of light and love:

• 55. The way of life contains very little business and bustling and demands mortification of the will more than knowledge. The less one takes of things and pleasures, the farther one advances along this way.
  
  56. Think not that pleasing God lies so much in doing a great deal as in doing it with good will, without possessiveness and human respect.
  
  57. At the evening of life, you will be examined in love. Learn to love as God desires to be loved and abandon your own ways of acting.

[Dennis Mahar]

full disclosure sure opens it up.
astonishing.

there's something there in the 'guts' that can't be named but 'calls'
it's unmistakeable,
it doesn't bleed

[Bobo]

Dramatic? My perception is that Alex knows no (great) suffering.

Diebert... has it ingrained, but it may be geographycally.

[Kunga]

"If a human holds a 'meaning' as a fixed idea, as a concrete platform to stand on...
the human starts shouting from that stance, preaching from that stance, criticising all others as violating that stance..
If the meaning is unconditional love then the meaning is soon lost in the standing in the stand.
Also the human can be affected by the onset of moods throughout the days and weeks and not be authentically feeling unconditional love, and in the noticing of that, lose sight of the meaning and find themselves behaving unkindly which leads to a guilt trip.
Having a meaning as a fixed idea is problematic.

If we have a meaning like unconditional love as a possibility for ourself and others the experience is entirely different.
Instead of preaching and condemning others, we find ourselves engaging with others in conversations as a form of inquiry into the question of being.
In that way others can become enrolled in our meaning possibility of their own accord simply because at that point they can grok it too.
Also having unconditional love as a possibility takes into account the fluctuating moods we experience. When we notice we're off track we can readjust and recognise our meaning again.

Now all that reveals the most important thing there is.
Freedom as a possibility.
To have the lightest possible grip on any meaning whatsoever has us free to be responsive under all circumstances, engaging authentically, being right there in the moment, having it open as an inquiry.
Going at it, locked up in a fixed idea delivers suffering."

[Dennis Mahar = The Hypocrite ]

[Alex Jacob]

Whoa! This is an unlikely combo. Dennis and Diebert walking in the warmth and brightness of Christ's divine love! Hand in hand as it were. It is really rather touching. Diebert, watch it though if he puts his hand up your tunic. He's a tricky one...

I propose a soundtrack...Let's sing all together!

What I found a wee bit funny was Dennis's first ridiculing of the phrase...but when Diebert selected a similar saying (from some other writing) of San Juan de la Cruz, it took on a different flavor and became 'amazing'.

Diebert you just have a talent for 'disclosing' things!

;-)

"A la tarde te examinarán en el amor".

This is the actual phrase. It translates pretty well thusly: 'In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone'.

What is utterly and yet deliciously absurd is how you are able, somehow, to take such a saying, with it's relation to Mark:

“One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?". "The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength'. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

I think the direction I would go if I were to make comments about Diebert's latest display...is that it is based entirely in a competitive and childish, if not brattish, attitude. Yes, Diebert, you are great! Your 'mood' in relation to your quotes, deep as they may be, has no relationship to the sort of love that San Juan de la Cruz writes of and which is the basis of his mystic experience. When we 'die because we won't die', is in the most interior Catholic/Christian sense because we refuse to live out of 'caritas'. And all of this connects not to games of 'spiritual one-upmanship' but to a group of other truths and possibilities for living...that you don't write about.

And heaven only knows what Dennis is really on about.

But I am glad that we can go in the direction of exploring in more depth Catholic thought! It is a gold mine although some might describe it as 'That's the big power move for the victim. The one the scoundrel pulls out of the hat as a last resort'.

Depends on the day I guess!

[Kunga]

He only knows the vicious circle.of course he's got it down pat.his 'potty training' sure takes a long time.some guys spend decades in 'boot camp'.

"Take that statement and speak it into a mirror then get back to me "




lol

[Alex Jacob]

PS: A translation of the poem Vivo sin vivir en mi (San Juan de la Cruz).

How might the content of that poem, Diebert, if it expresses content you admire, relate to your lived experience?

[Dennis Mahar]

You've been bleeding all over the place for years Kunga.
don't deny it!
face it.

get it over with.

Admit it publicly.
See thru' it.

[SeekerOfWisdom]

You guys are talking about nothing arguing constantly and every day, for what purpose? Why continue? You are kids, not masters. It is the height of stubbornness when you all know what is happening but refuse to stop.

[Dennis Mahar]

What I found a wee bit funny was Dennis's first ridiculing of the phrase...but when Diebert selected a similar saying (from some other writing) of San Juan de la Cruz, it took on a different flavor and became 'amazing'.

I said astonishing.
Diebert disclosed your dilettantism.
Amateurish production of qoutes and their application.
Little more than namedropping.
As in namedropping Bloom and missing his point.
Poor student.

skimming the surface as a way of being.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

You guys are talking about nothing arguing constantly and every day, for what purpose? Why continue? You are kids, not masters. It is the height of stubbornness when you all know what is happening but refuse to stop.

There's always one thing even worse in this world: nagging and moaning!

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Alex, the translation I provided is fine and done by people who seem to know what they read. It doesn't need much debate although with poetry there is alway room for interpretation I suppose. The point however is the context which I provided "mortification of the will", "taking less of things and pleasures", "abandon your own way of acting". Yes, as a personal struggle, as it being more existential, I was trying to point out the philosophy I was inquiring about as struggle laid closer to San Juan de la Cruz than to Miguel de Cervantes. It was a bit of clever irony that got lost in your mind. But of course you insist in attacking non-existing windmills (your "objections").

As for the supplied poem, it's quite good for a religious type: "I do not desire this life, I am dying because I do not die". Keep digging your own grave!

[SeekerOfWisdom]

Having no self is what makes it so hard to know what one wants, yet I feel it, empty desire for nothing.

[Dennis Mahar]

It's just machinery seeker.
caring about it is the suffering.

[Alex Jacob]

Diebert, the translation you provided is of another work by SJ de la Cruz which you selected, I assume, because it included the words 'evening' and 'love'. I supplied the original Spanish for the translation previously offered for the rather famous quote of SJ de la Cruz which speaks of something that I think went over your head, old bean. That as time advances and we mature we start to distinguish really important things from things we only thought important. You are certainly an admirable fellow with a good mind yet it is my perception that your grasp of 'spirituality' is shallow. Nevertheless I do recognize that you imagine yourself on the cutting edge of the most advanced understandings possible. You share this with Mr Quinn.

It is the core of the dysfunction of the GF position. You may quote me on that! ;-)

In a similar way Quinn and R and S expropriate cherry-picked quotes out of the Gospels the interior meaning of which is lost on them more or less completely. (A long time point of mine).

Although I did then and do now understand your desire to contrast a path of interiority and detachment (monastic path) with that of a colorful, tragico-ironic, larger-than-life and decidedly non-monastic work such as Quijote, and the distinction between interior and exterior-oriented paths is certainly a considerable and relevant topic, to my mind the whole topic from you is not genuine, and your desire to use either Cruz or Quijote is rather bizarre, simply because you don't really have much of a relationship to that whole source, nor the meaning of it in its largest senses. So, what you attempt with it and the way it is carried out smacks a little of the 'dillitantism' you desire to condem.

But I don't want to rob you of that delightful word!

[Diebert van Rhijn]

Diebert, the translation you provided is of another work by SJ de la Cruz which you selected, I assume, because it included the words 'evening' and 'love'.

Nonsense. You need to sober up and read the stuff you're pulling out of thin air. You're done here and I'm done with you since you're descending into crapping all over the place with this. You lost, Alex, you're soiling your pants. Give it up.

[Alex Jacob]

Nonsense. You need to sober up and read the stuff you're pulling out of thin air. You're done here and I'm done with you since you're descending into crapping all over the place with this. You lost, Alex, you're soiling your pants. Give it up.

What I find interesting is that what you've written above should really be applied to you! It would be an important step for you to see this.

Be that as it may the quote I posted, my Proud but Most Esteemed Sir, came from Avisos Espirituales, Dichos de Amor y Luz, No. 60:

57. No es de voluntad de Dios que el alma se turbe de nada ni que padezca trabajos; que, si los padece en los adversos casos del mundo, es por la flaqueza de su virtud, porque el alma del perfectose goza en lo que se pena la imperfecta.
58. El camino de la vida, de muy poco bullicio y negociación es, y más requiere mortificación de la voluntad que mucho saber. El que tomare de las cosas y gustos lo menos, andará más por él.
59. No pienses que el agradar a Dios está tanto en obrar mucho como en obrarlo con buena voluntad, sin propiedad y respetos.
60. A la tarde te examinarán en el amor; aprende a amar como Dios quiere ser amado y deja tu condición.

You can find it here.

I hope you don't find it irritating that I have selected an illustrative photo of my two favorite [recently converted] Hyper Catholics, Sancho Dennis and Don Diebert de la Rhijn!

Here's the soundtrack.

;-)

[Diebert van Rhijn]

It's almost painful to have to point to you that Dichos de Amor y Luz means something like "Sayings of Light and Love".

Now go back and read my post again. The line numbers only differ slightly.

Perhaps you can start to admit you have been extremely sloppy and that your Spanish is malisimo?

[Alex Jacob]

Don't be pained, Diebert. Save your feelings for a moment when they are needed.

The original Spanish trumps a bad translation. I may have to report you to the San Juan de la Cruz division of the Hello Kitty Catholic dissemination committee.

Diebert, you have got to take a chill pill and laugh a little.

Where this conversation diverged was with the following:

"As someone once said to me: 'You know what you know'. Every life is a trajectory in experience, essentially. No matter what the relationship to higher ideas and ideals is. And in a certain sense, of course, you are right insofar as I did not, say, come out of high school (as a starting point) with a head filled with the ideas of some specific philosophy. I would imagine that you did though. I would not invalidate that, in se, but nor would I invalidate me own trajectory and experience. That would be folly. And also true is the fact that the men I admire most are men who have gained their experiences directly from life; from a direct grappling with life. But I have noticed that men who were informed more philosophically and as you say academically, more than often enough seem to lack a certain vitality and as I said 'personal power'. I don't mean to use it in its strict Castanedian sense though. But I do very much believe in the principals of 'shamanic experience', which is of course the ur-experience of all mankind. Don't forget that, Giant Grasshopper. In one way or another, at some point or another, with whatever knowledge-base one has, either 'philosophical' or 'academic', one goes into the inner meaning for oneself of one's experience here. That to me is 'shamanism'.

"What else you do, and this is truly par for the course in the Quinnean sense, is enact a kind of violence against other people's experience. When push comes to shove this is what the GFers do. They condemn everyone else and claim that they are on some exalted platform, distinct. What I find interesting in these last few pages here is that the normally moderate Diebert, the one we all love and value, has a very harsh judgmental streak. This originates in your person and is enacted for your own reasons. No one, you see, has to answer to you. But you, within your 'philosophy' [whatever it is] feel that you can take others to task. It is a little suspect, Mr van Rhijn."

"One thing I notice about you, but it only really jumps out at certain moments, is your arrogance. A man knows what a man knows. I discovered a great deal of real wisdom in the most unlikely places. You just never really know where you are going to find it. But with these judgments of yours: 'Worthless! Worthless! Vanity and absurdity!' our own Ecclesiasticus might not be able to see it, even as the Africans say if it came and sat on his own head. And that is pretty much the core of my critique against the GF edifice. You claim 'wisdom' but long before you really discovered what it was. But y'all still have time, and life is a very skillful instructor."

It is so much like you, and so much a part of your style, to do everything in your power to divert a conversation into areas where you feel you can win.

These are far more interesting areas, at least I think so.

[Diebert van Rhijn]

But this is not going to continue Alex. It was my point all along that there was a bad translation which you were initially using. You have hijacked this point and made it into yours. Hard to remain amused after a while.

It's of course just a minor almost silly detail but it was meant as demonstration in the utter factual as far as the textual can go. The point is, you are doing this nearly every post, on every topic, textually, logically, interpretatively, half jokingly and so on. The same problem of not being able to keep your thoughts, your reading and your argument straight for more than two sentences. That's why our two sentence conversations have been great. Or in every situation where you didn't feel pressured perhaps since it must have an emotional origin. But as for on-line, more focused and truth oriented "inquiries" like this, it has been enough. It's just a bit of pointless for me to expect much of this anymore. Not even to challenge myself. Please let this rest, okay?

Lack of motive. Rest. Goodbye!

[Alex Jacob]

It was my point all along that there was a bad translation which you were initially using.

No, that was not really your point, that was only the excuse. The translation I used was just fine. It captures more precisely the meaning than what you offered. San Juan de la Cruz' religion and spirituality is on another plane from your concepts of religion and spirituality. You can't take that and whack it into the shape of your choice, man! They do not match up. What you do is something like academic spirituality or perhaps at best a philosophical spirituality, but it is distorting and in bad faith to some degree. And it seems shallow and even a little brittle. I would like to think that this has been demonstrated over the last few pages but perhaps I am wrong.

It is a silly detail, it is true, but not when the meaning of something is captured and altered. In all truth, if Juan de la Cruz speaks about 'love', and it appears that he does---a lot---that is something that is pretty absent from your discourse, and that is a fault and a shame as I see things. There is a very important core there.

The meaning of the phrase still stands, exactly as it was offered. You wanted to make this an academicians battle and a splitting of hairs, and you did. And you then employed it to thwart a conversation that was moving a little too close to home for you. And there you have it.

But 'its all good' as they say...

[Dan Rowden]

"A la tarde te examinarán en el amor".

This is the actual phrase. It translates pretty well thusly: 'In the evening of life, we will be judged on love alone'.

Um, where are the words "judged" and "alone" in the original Spanish sentence? These are sayings, not poetry, strictly speaking. There's not that much room for interpretive translation.