There is no logic for existence

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
jufa
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by jufa »

The axiom is existence: that something exists and not not-exists. It comes before the "why".

As logic cannot go further than the axioms it's based on, the question "why" cannot address existence. This does not annihilate logic, it only shows how logic is the ultimate consequence of having existence of anything at all.
The theorem does not fall upon existence, that is witticism which cannot come before either, or, unless the either, or is definitive as to why either, or can find life to exist. No one has given logic, either, or, as to why. This does indeed mean logic cannot go further than the theorem it's based on, but to find the base of logic, there must be an object. The object is therefore existence. As logic must have a base, existence also must have a base. That base is cause. Cause for existence has been totally ignored because to find cause is to give logic for existence. This means logic cannot become a subjective object of discussion until the cause has been defined.
Existence (and there is nothing but) has no ultimate consequence. Which is why, first of all, I described the logic for the universe as more.


To say the above quote is to say that existence exist because. What is missing is because of what?

Moreover, to describe logic for the universe as more, does not tell us the more of what?

The lack of understanding here is the application of logic to what is illogical. The gist of this theme is not concerning the existence of the universe, but existence. What is it that cause existence to produce consequence of effect? To make it simple, what is the cause of existence to exist in existence?

Supposed logic has been give for the existence of the universe, now will someone apply logic as to why existence exist, and why existence exist in existence. Someone please give us the cause for the logic of existence - pretty please. A little jufa humor I hope is accepted in good taste.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
Last edited by jufa on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Carmel

Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Carmel »

dejavu:
Imagine the universe itself could talk. If it could ask one question what would it be? More. More? More. More? More.

You see the answer would have to be the very same.

Carmel:
Ok, but aren't we into the realm of imagination, rather than logic? I did the same when I said the universe operated on the principle of change with an underpinning of constancy. Aren't we just projecting our own subjective values and judgements onto the universe?...and isn't that what we are forever doing when we try to describe the universe?

dejavu:
I suppose some would say the question would be 'This'?

Carmel:
or 'That'? ;)

dejavu:
But I don't think that demonstrates it as clearly (and I understand you might not see what I've just written as demonstrating it clearly either ;)

Carmel:
lol...You're right!

Anyway, I'm signing out for now, but will check back later to see how this thread is progressing...
Beingof1
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Beingof1 »

dejavu wrote:
dejavu: Existence (and there is nothing but) has no ultimate consequence

Diebert: But itself. Voilà.
Not even. For how could it then be infinite?

I may want to go on existing, just like Beingof1, but the universe can't help it. Jufa doesn't want to be wrong, Jufa wants to know why the universe can't help but exist. It can't help it because it's infinite. Why is it so? Because it can't be otherwise. Existence is ALL we have to go on.

Jufa, you can blame me for your being wrong if you like.

:D
dejavu:Which is why, first of all, I described the logic for the universe as more.

Carmel:This idea is a bit nebulous to me. Could you elaborate?
I'll try!

Imagine the universe itself could talk. If it could ask one question what would it be? More. More? More. More? More.

You see the answer would have to be the very same.
I suppose some would say the question would be 'This'? But I don't think that demonstrates it as clearly (and I understand you might not see what I've just written as demonstrating it clearly either ;))
Right method of inquiry - what does the universe ask?
More is what it already is.

What do I want?

I know this because this question is the property of the universe. This is self evident because of this thread.

If it is you or I asking the question that must be, according to the rules of logical, cause and effect. The question of the universe itself.

We arrive at the same question - what do I want?
jufa
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by jufa »

No, existence exists because it can't not exist. That is different from saying "the universe exists because..."
Now you have answered the question unbeknowing. Existence doesn't exist because there is no logic for it to exist.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
jufa
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by jufa »

Right method of inquiry - what does the universe ask?
More is what it already is.

What do I want?

I know this because this question is the property of the universe. This is self evident because of this thread.

If it is you or I asking the question that must be, according to the rules of logical, cause and effect. The question of the universe itself.

We arrive at the same question - what do I want?
The universe does not ask for more, the universe just says - I AM. I AM all and all. So what is the question to be asked again. More of what? I AM THAT I AM.!!! Now what AM I?

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
Pam Seeback
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Pam Seeback »

Most here are forgetting that the universe was/is before the questioning human mind became a thought.
Gurrb
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Gurrb »

the universe is merely a product of the human mind.
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guest_of_logic
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by guest_of_logic »

And of what is the human mind a product?
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Dan Rowden
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Dan Rowden »

The Universe.
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guest_of_logic
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by guest_of_logic »

But you wouldn't agree with Gurrb's claim, would you, Dan? I want to know the answer if Gurrb's claim is true.
Ataraxia
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Ataraxia »

They would both be true statements, wouldn't you say, Laird?
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guest_of_logic
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by guest_of_logic »

Not if I interpret "produced" in the typical way, where for B to be a product of A, A must have existed prior to B, in which case if both statements are true then we have the universe existing prior to human minds, and human minds existing prior to the universe, which is a contradiction.

A less typical interpretation (although more typical around GF) might be that "is a product of" means not "is the effect of a prior cause", but rather, "is affected by". I don't think that that's what Gurrb meant though, else why mention specifically the human mind - why not minds in general, or rocks, or trees, or hydrogen, or any number of other things in the universe that affect it?

Basically, Gurrb's comment doesn't make sense to me, as it implies that minds are separate from the universe. I might be able to interpret it as something like, "Our mental image of the universe is a product of our minds", but that's pretty tautological. I was hoping by my question to get clarification on his/her meaning.
Pam Seeback
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Pam Seeback »

Belief in effects crystallizes into affect.

Cause is an illusion, as are the effects believed to emanate from cause. No cause for life can be found, for life is infinite thought thinking of infinite thought (Self thinking of Self).

Consciously acknowledging the error in thinking that life is caused into effects, that there is such a thing as "logic" in the infinite mind of infinity, is to be released of the affect of being tensed into false attachment to any and all, idea.
jufa
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by jufa »

Dejavu!

One moment you state the universe ask for more, the next you state the universe doesn't say anything- Give me more, more more of this logic, then pray tell, give me the logic for the creation of the universe.

Dejavu you just said their is no ultimate logic for the existence of the universe, then you proceed to discuss that logic which does not exist. What you gonna do when you wake up to find Hulk Hogan bearing down on you to pin you down to either, or? You can always come join me in feet washing.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
jufa
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by jufa »

Carmel states:
Logic is a product of consciousness
When there is no logic for consciousness, because no one knows what consciousness is. This is a proven truth.

Gurrb states:
The universe is merely a product of the human mind
Gurrb, however, does not give cause for the existence of the human mind

guest_of_logic continues by stating:
And what is the human mind a product of?
Guest is asking what produced the human mind?

Dan Rowden states:
The Universe
This indicates the universe is self existent. So the question comes: What is this Self that exist as the universe?

guest_of_logic make the following statement to Dan Rowden, and asked him the question:
But you wouldn't agree with Gurrub's claim, would you. Dan?
Waiting on a reply.

Atarayia made the statement, and ask:
They would both be true statements, would't yu say, Laird?
Every one jumps over the original statement "There is no logic for existence" by dealing with effects of cause, but never cause.

So the following question are presented:

What is the logic for the existence of consciousness?
What is the logic for the existence of the mind?
What is the logic for the universe?
How can logic, for consciousness, for the mind, or the universe be the visiting points for logical discussiong when the logic for the existence of the above has not been established?

I repeat the title to this thread: "There is no logic for existence." If there is logic for the existence of the universe, someone GIVE IT UP.

What is the logic for existence? Not consciousness, not the human mind, not the universe, but existence itself. This is what this thread is seeking an answer of.

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
Carmel

Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Carmel »

Jufa:
Carmel states:
Logic is a product of consciousness

Jufa:
When there is no logic for consciousness, because no one knows what consciousness is. This is a proven truth.

Carmel:
That's a misquote, I believe it was dejavu who said that...but while I'm here, what do you mean by "proven truth", what proof do you have to proffer?
jufa
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by jufa »

Jufa:
Carmel states:
Logic is a product of consciousness

Jufa:
When there is no logic for consciousness, because no one knows what consciousness is. This is a proven truth.

Carmel:
That's a misquote, I believe it was dejavu who said that...but while I'm here, what do you mean by "proven truth", what proof do you have to proffer?
Carmel, I stand corrected?

My peroffered proof is no one can define consciousness?

Now if this proof is incorrect, would like for you to prove me wrong and define consciousness definitively with proffered proof,

Never give power to anything a person believes is their source of strength - jufa
Carmel

Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Carmel »

dejavu:
No, existence exists because it can't not exist. That is different from saying "the universe exists because...

jufa:
Now you have answered the question unbeknowing. Existence doesn't exist because there is no logic for it to exist.

Carmel:
..but, that's not what he said. He "existence exists because it can't not exist." ..It exists because it's in its nature to exist, it can do no other.
Last edited by Carmel on Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Carmel

Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Carmel »

jufa:
Carmel, I stand corrected?

Carmel:
Why the ? You misquoted me, go back and read the thread.

jufa:
My peroffered proof is no one can define consciousness?

Carmel:
That's not proof. It's an opinion.

jufa:
Now if this proof is incorrect, would like for you to prove me wrong and define consciousness definitively with proffered proof,

Carmel:
I'm not claiming that your proof is incorrect. I'm simply saying that it isn't proof, at all, it's merely an unsubstantiated opinion.
Gurrb
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Gurrb »

is proof really of importance when dealing with the 'imagined' infinite; the universe? we approach proof with a bias, as we want this evidence to support our present theories. we think the universe has no end because we cannot imagine its end, just as we cannot imagine the end of our existence. with this approach, can't we infer that time and the universe are dependent upon each other, and that both are infinite? the question of 'time_0' arises with this, but can't it be reasoned that infinity also is of negative value, and that 0 is just a number on the continuum of negative to positive; time prior to existence, and time with existence?

let time 0 represent the 'present'. the present cannot occur, using the logic that motion cannot truly occur. time can be infinitely divided, just as motion can be. we imagine the future, we reflect on the past, and we create the present as means for our existence. but if the present cannot occur, can we truly exist?
Carmel

Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Carmel »

Yes, I agree,

We are mostly dealing with imaginings, and speculation, but that's not a excuse for making inaccurate claims of possessing "proof". We should strive for some semblance of logistical accuracy. Have you read the stated goals of this forum?
Gurrb
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Gurrb »

I guess I should view 'proof' as theory based on human reason, as nothing is concrete. Just as human thought is imagined, but we have 'proved' is to exist.
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Tomas
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Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Tomas »

movingalways wrote:Most here are forgetting that the universe was/is before the questioning human mind became a thought.
No, not in my lifetime.
Don't run to your death
Carmel

Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Carmel »

Gurrb:
we think the universe has no end because we cannot imagine its end, just as we cannot imagine the end of our existence.

Carmel:
Who's the alleged "we"? ;)

Gurrb:
... using the logic that motion cannot truly occur.

Carmel:
By what logic did you arrive at this conclusion?

Carmel:
As for "proof", you can't just arbitrarily redefine words to suit your purpose.

proof: evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true or factual.

I now know what jufa was trying to convey, she/he simply didn't state it accurately. I was simply pointing that out to demonstrate that it's important to choose your words carefully, so that others can understand your message.
Last edited by Carmel on Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
Carmel

Re: There is no logic for existence

Post by Carmel »

movingalways:
Most here are forgetting that the universe was/is before the questioning human mind became a thought.

Tomas:
No, not in my lifetime.

Carmel:
Yeah, I'll second that notion.
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