Plato: On Truth and Falsehood ( Texts: Phaedrus)

[zarathustra]

The little we know of Socrates - thanks to Plato - does not support what you are saying. He said, like Plato, that ultimate reality cannot be known, that it was not, to use the cliche, the destination that mattered, but the journey. He , like Plato, believed that it was impossible for us to know THE TRUTH. What Plato did was to use the elements of language to demonstrate this further through metaphor, symbolism, argument....Plato's cave is not of course TRUE but merely gives the mind something to reflect on when dealing with certain philosophical problems. No reflection=no philosophy ....

z

[David Quinn]

A Zen teaching:

Socrates used to go around Athens saying "You must know yourself". Once a student of his asked him "Do you know yourself? ". Socrates said "I don't know, but I understand this don't know.

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[zarathustra]

[quote="David Quinn"]A Zen teaching:

Socrates used to go around Athens saying "You must know yourself". Once a student of his asked him "Do you know yourself? ". Socrates said "I don't know, but I understand this don't know.

So?
z

[David Quinn]

It is that deep understanding which you are missing. The "unknowing" of Socrates is actually the expression of a great wisdom which knows everything fundamentally.

That is why Kierkegaard spoke of Socrates as being a supreme ironist.

Kierkegaard used a nice metaphor to describe Socrates. Imagine a couple of large trees situated close together such that the space between them forms the image of a face. In order to see the face, you have to ignore the trees and observe the space in between. Similarly with Socrates, you have to look beyond his words to the reality that his words were pointing to.

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[zarathustra]

Firstly, we're not talking about trees we are talking about ultimate truth. Captain Kierk's trees are no different to Plato's cave, in that he asks you to 'visualize' something using FORMS, LIGHT and SPACE. Plato did EXACTLY THAT, but there is no way you can ever get BEYOND THAT, and that is what Socrates and Plato UNDERSTOOD. You could of course embark on a personal journey, where you leave the trappings of your 'mind' behind i.e., logic, reason, knowledge...but thats where the seeker parts company with his 'humanity,' because what he is embarking on is a journey NO ONE but HE can take. And there is no way to validate his experience, not even to himself. If he could, it would be proof positive that he is deluding himself...the reality is, this is as far as we can go. My queston is - for what? The Greeks were painfully aware of this IMPASSE, and in response they took a deep ACTIVE interest in eros, art, tragedy, heroism, which even today serve to ENRICH our lives and make us better human beings - more HUMANE.....there is truth in all this, and beauty, and mystery, all those things that make a higher life WORTH LIVING. Its tragic that many in here cannot see it, that they yearn for the void over everything else...

z

[divine focus]

Things can only be understood in relationship to other things, but Plato believed that one thing can be understood metaphysically by understanding its essence, which is total rubbish….

Essence and relationship aren't divorced from each other. The essence of all things are the same, in a very real sense.

[zarathustra]

like cordial when you add water....

z