Would a TEP be concerned about the enlightenment of others?

Discussion of the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment.
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Joker,
If I may quote the nearly inimicable Lao Tzu:

When a foolish man hears of the Tao, he laughs
If he didn't laugh, it wouldn't be the Tao
You may, but I don't consider him to have been wise. Many treat him as an authority on becoming wise, and I haven't found any who have actually become it by reading his phrasings.

By the way, you should know that when I heard of the Tao, I listened in carefully. Then I found it. Now, it's as if it doesn't exist at all.

Do you really see me laughing about it?
sschaula, a stupid and deluded person may THINK he values truth, wisdom, enlightenment, etc, but if he is truly stupid and deluded, he does not comprehend what truth, wisdom, and enlightenment actually are. He is simply caught up in his own delusion, and cannot be said to value these things, properly speaking.
Here's a riddle:

If a wise person knows how deluded he is, then he isn't wise. If a fool knows how deluded he is, that is wisdom. How is this possible?

I'm eager to tell you the answer.
- Scott
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

sschaula wrote:Someone can be emotionally stable for the time being, but that's probably due to some kind of underlying problem with the person.
Emotional stability indicates a lack of underlying problems. I think you are confusing emotional stability with emotional flatness, which would indicate a problem.
Dionysius the Undying
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Post by Dionysius the Undying »

My Motley "Friend":
If a wise person knows how deluded he is, then he isn't wise.

If a fool knows how deluded he is, that is wisdom. How is this possible?
A wise person, by definition, is one who is not deluded.

A foolish person, by definition, is one who is deluded, but he need not be deluded about everything. It's entirely possible a fool may realize he is lacking in wisdom (although impossible that he understand just how much depth he is lacking). It's even possible that he may have what can---comparatively or analogically---be called "wisdom" if he has a cursory understanding of his foolishness, but this does not make him a wise man. It certainly doesn't make him enlightened.
Dionysius the Undying
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Post by Dionysius the Undying »

Actually, Scott, looking back over your last post it's obvious you are unable to grasp simple definitions. For instance, you write:
Every body decays as well as grows. I've tried to be healthy for a few years now and you can get close, but death is imminent. There is no cure.
There's a clear difference between health and immortality. Apparently "healthy lifestyle" to you means "immortal".
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Scott,
In my opinion, the enlightened person doesn't care about enlightening others since the enlightenment process has nothing to do with reality but everything to do with discovering reality. Enlightenment isn't real. If the "enlightened person" is helping others towards discovering reality for themselves, it's a clear sign that they're not enlightened.

Enlightenment doesn't exist. Delusion exists.
Although I understand what you say, I really wouldn’t go that far, because your final statement as a whole can be considered as delusional then. The understanding that all is delusion, if delusional, then one better not utter a word. The realization that all is delusion, and that is all that there is, leaves utterly nothing otherwise, so what is not Reality? Including the chasing of/for "enlightenment", or any realization thereof.

Yes, as, I think Elizabeth (if I am not mistaken) generally puts it, the word ‘enlightenment’ carries too much baggage with it, and that generally is a highly false-ego based baggage and a real heavy one too, or say an egotistical baggage. Otherwise, I have nothing against the word itself if one is not attached too deeply, as to its “profound significance” so to speak, but I prefer not to use it much, any ways.
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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

E,
Emotional stability indicates a lack of underlying problems. I think you are confusing emotional stability with emotional flatness, which would indicate a problem.
Good point...so do you know anyone who is truly emotionally stable? I don't.

Joker,
A wise person, by definition, is one who is not deluded.

A foolish person, by definition, is one who is deluded, but he need not be deluded about everything. It's entirely possible a fool may realize he is lacking in wisdom (although impossible that he understand just how much depth he is lacking). It's even possible that he may have what can---comparatively or analogically---be called "wisdom" if he has a cursory understanding of his foolishness, but this does not make him a wise man. It certainly doesn't make him enlightened.
Exactly right! To make it witty and kind of catchy: There are no wise people, only fools with wisdom.

For a joker, you're pretty bright.
Actually, Scott, looking back over your last post it's obvious you are unable to grasp simple definitions. For instance, you write:

Quote:
Every body decays as well as grows. I've tried to be healthy for a few years now and you can get close, but death is imminent. There is no cure.


There's a clear difference between health and immortality. Apparently "healthy lifestyle" to you means "immortal".
Not necessarily. I know that "healthy lifestyle" means you make choices which contribute to your feeling good, and which lengthen your lifespan. I say that it's not our choice whether we feel good or how long we live. Not just in terms of disaster striking, or a disease suddenly striking us down.

I mean we don't know what makes us healthy. Some suggest breathing exercises...but the fact is that those can be damaging over time. Some suggest higher fiber intake, but that can end up causing digestive problems instead of just relieving them. Some say don't eat simple sugars, but then you feel lethargic and stupid. The list could go on.

Okay it will. People say running is good for you, yet look at what it does to many people's knees and ankles. Lifting weights? Joint problems down the road. The list could go on.

So you want more? Take modern medicine's side effects for example. Treating your heart condition, for example, and then acquiring a new condition. Or how about treating coughs (which is your body's natural defense against foreign materials) with cough suppressants.

What I've found is that the body is built to survive, not to be healthy. When you start trying to make it healthy, you can experience problems. I have yet to find an effective means of feeling good all the time. You must realize I'm overexaggerating to make a point. I know of many healthy things to do, and I'm relatively free of sickness. So, I am making kind of a stupid point...whatever, I'm done arguing about it. Lets say you proved me wrong there.

Sapius,
Although I understand what you say, I really wouldn’t go that far, because your final statement as a whole can be considered as delusional then. The understanding that all is delusion, if delusional, then one better not utter a word. The realization that all is delusion, and that is all that there is, leaves utterly nothing otherwise, so what is not Reality? Including the chasing of/for "enlightenment", or any realization thereof.
That's not true. A deluded person can know some truths rationally. Them being deluded doesn't make the truths into falsehoods.

I never said "all is delusion". As a matter of fact, all is reality. What I did say is that there is no enlightenment.
Yes, as, I think Elizabeth (if I am not mistaken) generally puts it, the word ‘enlightenment’ carries too much baggage with it, and that generally is a highly false-ego based baggage and a real heavy one too, or say an egotistical baggage. Otherwise, I have nothing against the word itself if one is not attached too deeply, as to its “profound significance” so to speak, but I prefer not to use it much, any ways.
The problem I have is not just with the word, but the "path" itself. What it does to people.
- Scott
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Trevor Salyzyn
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Post by Trevor Salyzyn »

Scott,
What I did say is that there is no enlightenment.
If enlightenment is the absence of all delusion, this statement is identical to you saying that there is at least one delusion that it is impossible to get rid of.

I am having a very hard time thinking of a single delusion that cannot be dismantled. Can you give an example of a necessary delusion (in other words, something that gets in the way of enlightenment)?
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Scott,
I never said "all is delusion". As a matter of fact, all is reality. What I did say is that there is no enlightenment.


Fair enough, then do you mean ‘enlightenment’ as defined by others?
The problem I have is not just with the word, but the "path" itself. What it does to people.
I don’t think that should worry you at all, because you believe (through reason of course) that there isn’t any free will in whatsoever form, I don’t.

“It” (enlightenment and its entire baggage) does not do any thing to people, people let it happen to themselves, they do have a choice, for all are exposed to the same Reality, and differing opinions do exist, and those too are Reality.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Sapius wrote:
What do you mean by ‘feelings’? Is it something like you feel a cool breeze? And is that the same as feeling ‘discontent’? Is there not any reasoning involved for discontent to come about? How do you see the possibility of an animal being "discontent"?
Discontent is not like typical feelings, it’s not like depression, despair, joy, happiness, or anything like that, it’s much more subtle. And I don’t see animals being capable of discontent because they are not capable of thinking.

Discontent improves the quality of ones reasoning skills, and ones reasoning skills makes discontent much more subtle over time. Discontent is felt at the center of the body, not the brain. The brain is only the processor, but the brain must be healthy to be able to support ones reasoning activity, but the entire process is subjectively motivated.

If there was no discontent, you would never come to this message board, you would never expose yourself to new intellectual material and so on. It is the primary motivator, and it’s involuntary. Without it, there would be no creativity.
sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Trevor,
If enlightenment is the absence of all delusion, this statement is identical to you saying that there is at least one delusion that it is impossible to get rid of.
Very right... this is great progress in discussion in my opinion. Very level headed and rational of you to go this route.
I am having a very hard time thinking of a single delusion that cannot be dismantled. Can you give an example of a necessary delusion (in other words, something that gets in the way of enlightenment)?
The sense of having a soul or a self, which ties in with the innate belief in the inherent existence of objects. The unconscious belief in a supreme power (which in my opinion everyone has, no matter how wise they think they are..."you find god in the foxhole"...or in other words, "who the fuck are you whining to when the shit hits the fan?"). The unconscious belief that there is something to be made up for....something out there which we need to take action to acquire.

No one I know of has dismantled these things.

Then we could go on to the unconscious belief that women have power over us. Yes, even people who claim to be free of it are not...especially not them. There may be some who aren't affected by their attraction to women, or who have lost their attraction...but they won't go around claiming women are inferior. Doing that is a defense mechanism, and it highlights just how vulnerable that person is to the power women have over them (which doesn't exist in reality).

I don't know of anyone who has actually dismantled that. If someone thinks they have, at least in my experience, they are fooling themselves.

Sapius,
Fair enough, then do you mean ‘enlightenment’ as defined by others?
I don't really know what you're asking, but yes.
I don’t think that should worry you at all, because you believe (through reason of course) that there isn’t any free will in whatsoever form, I don’t.

“It” (enlightenment and its entire baggage) does not do any thing to people, people let it happen to themselves, they do have a choice, for all are exposed to the same Reality, and differing opinions do exist, and those too are Reality.
I don't know what you're saying here either. It seems to me like you're lost in your own world. That can happen with a lot of thinking in certain terms, and little outside activity. The brain gets used to existing a certain way, and loses its ability to exist another way...you seem to have lost your ability to make sense to others, having had little practice at it.
- Scott
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Ryan,
If there was no discontent, you would never come to this message board, you would never expose yourself to new intellectual material and so on. It is the primary motivator, and it’s involuntary. Without it, there would be no creativity.
I totally agree that without discontent there would be no creativity, but I believe this “feeling” is created through reason alone, and that my coming to this board around nine years ago was not motivated by any discontent that I felt then or feel now, but rather the essential similarities in thought which I found talking with David and Dan, which happens quite rarely in my experience.
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Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Scott,
I don't really know what you're asking, but yes.
By saying yes, I take it you have guessed it right, and that is quite clear to me.
I don't know what you're saying here either. It seems to me like you're lost in your own world. That can happen with a lot of thinking in certain terms, and little outside activity. The brain gets used to existing a certain way, and loses its ability to exist another way...you seem to have lost your ability to make sense to others, having had little practice at it.
My apologies; may be you are right. Not only that, but it seems that I cannot even understand why or what you are saying here. So I am lost either way… I’m sure a person like you should make perfect sense to all others though…. poor me…
The sense of having a soul or a self, which ties in with the innate belief in the inherent existence of objects. The unconscious belief in a supreme power (which in my opinion everyone has, no matter how wise they think they are..."you find god in the foxhole"...or in other words, "who the fuck are you whining to when the shit hits the fan?"). The unconscious belief that there is something to be made up for....something out there which we need to take action to acquire.

No one I know of has dismantled these things.
How about yourself? And you could also try looking up U G Krishnamurti.
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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Sapius,

You're right that I may not make sense to anyone else either. Poor us, then.

I'm just a moron. So is UGK...at least he found a way to get by without working, though.
- Scott
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

(1) Sapius: I don’t think that should worry you at all, because you believe (through reason of course) that there isn’t any free will in whatsoever form, I don’t.

(2) “It” (enlightenment and its entire baggage) does not do any thing to people, people let it happen to themselves, they do have a choice, for all are exposed to the same Reality, and differing opinions do exist, and those too are Reality.

(3) Scott: I don't know what you're saying here either. It seems to me like you're lost in your own world. That can happen with a lot of thinking in certain terms, and little outside activity. The brain gets used to existing a certain way, and loses its ability to exist another way...you seem to have lost your ability to make sense to others, having had little practice at it.

(4) Sapius: My apologies; may be you are right. Not only that, but it seems that I cannot even understand why or what you are saying here. So I am lost either way… I’m sure a person like you should make perfect sense to all others though…. poor me…
my interpretation:
In (1) Sapius essentially said: Lets agree to disagree a little because I, Sapius, believe in some degree of free will. I see that you, Scott, do not believe in free will.

In (2) Sapius essentially said: Enlightenment is something that people bring on themselves; enlightenment does not actively go out, smash someone over the head and take a person hostage.

(3) Scott's been gone too long and has already forgotten GF-speak. I'll agree that it is a slightly different language...

(3) & (4) [comment, not interpretation] - I hope I helped.
.
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Ryan Rudolph
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Post by Ryan Rudolph »

Sapius wrote:
I totally agree that without discontent there would be no creativity, but I believe this “feeling” is created through reason alone, and that my coming to this board around nine years ago was not motivated by any discontent that I felt then or feel now, but rather the essential similarities in thought which I found talking with David and Dan, which happens quite rarely in my experience.
Q: On the one hand, you agree that one needs discontent for creativity to occur, but on the other hand you say that there was no discontent present when speaking with David and Dan because of thinking similarities, this doesn’t seem right to me.

Creativity happens in dialogue, if you disagree with someone it's because you're discontent with what they have written, and that is what motivates you to respond using reason to correct them.

And if you agree with someone regarding one area of thought, you’ll still eventually bring up areas of thought that you are discontent with to try to bring about some deeper clarity.

Historically speaking, I suspect that no two individuals have ever been completely unified, so there is always some degree of discontent, which is the breeding ground for creativity.
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Scott,
I'm just a moron. So is UGK...at least he found a way to get by without working, though.
No, I don’t think so, I wouldn’t consider either of you morons simply from analyzing your above statement; UGK for getting by without work, and you getting that right.
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Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
(1) Sapius: I don’t think that should worry you at all, because you believe (through reason of course) that there isn’t any free will in whatsoever form, I don’t.

(2) “It” (enlightenment and its entire baggage) does not do any thing to people, people let it happen to themselves, they do have a choice, for all are exposed to the same Reality, and differing opinions do exist, and those too are Reality.

(3) Scott: I don't know what you're saying here either. It seems to me like you're lost in your own world. That can happen with a lot of thinking in certain terms, and little outside activity. The brain gets used to existing a certain way, and loses its ability to exist another way...you seem to have lost your ability to make sense to others, having had little practice at it.

(4) Sapius: My apologies; may be you are right. Not only that, but it seems that I cannot even understand why or what you are saying here. So I am lost either way… I’m sure a person like you should make perfect sense to all others though…. poor me…
my interpretation:
In (1) Sapius essentially said: Lets agree to disagree a little because I, Sapius, believe in some degree of free will. I see that you, Scott, do not believe in free will.

In (2) Sapius essentially said: Enlightenment is something that people bring on themselves; enlightenment does not actively go out, smash someone over the head and take a person hostage.

(3) Scott's been gone too long and has already forgotten GF-speak. I'll agree that it is a slightly different language...

(3) & (4) [comment, not interpretation] - I hope I helped.
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:D I guess it does. Especially if you add the statement to which (1) was a response to…
Scott: The problem I have is not just with the word, but the "path" itself. What it does to people.
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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

There was a miscommunication: I do believe in the mirage of free will.
- Scott
Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Ryan,
Q: On the one hand, you agree that one needs discontent for creativity to occur, but on the other hand you say that there was no discontent present when speaking with David and Dan because of thinking similarities, this doesn’t seem right to me.
May be we are looking at 'discontent' differently.

Discontent can create creativity and clarity in though even if you think all alone simply by observing whatever is thrown at you, and logically deducing it. much of my discontent as far as knowing what existence is all about disappeared well before I arrived here. So what doesn’t seem right? Can I not simply put forth my difference of opinion in certain areas and just leave it at that? It doesn’t really bother/effect me if someone disagrees or agrees with me, however, I am always open to listening and learning.
Creativity happens in dialogue, if you disagree with someone it's because you're discontent with what they have written, and that is what motivates you to respond using reason to correct them.
Firstly, a dialogue can happen mentally within; a human mind does not necessarily need another individual for a dialogue to take place. Secondly, I was discontent with what was written ages ago, so I was pushed towards understanding what could be the truth, simply because I am a thing that is capable of questioning. I do not need to argue as such or yearn for someone to agree with me. Any ways, a reasoned opinion need not necessarily arise out of my personal discontent as such, that's all I am saying here.
And if you agree with someone regarding one area of thought, you’ll still eventually bring up areas of thought that you are discontent with to try to bring about some deeper clarity.
That is not necessarily the only reason to bring up certain areas of thought; at times one questions to see what the other really means, or the question itself actually tells them to look at their reasoning again.
Historically speaking, I suspect that no two individuals have ever been completely unified, so there is always some degree of discontent, which is the breeding ground for creativity.
Of course, no two individual things are the same or can be completely “unified” in whatever sense. Each and very thing is absolutely unique as a thing according to is own unique causal conditions, but are already exactly the same in essence, and that is the beauty of existence. Otherwise, such infinite diversity with such infinite causal connectivity could not have been possible. What I don’t understand from you is, what has discontent got to do with complete unification with another individual? My discontent is my own, and that can disappear if I can mentally comprehend and accept what makes logical sense to me. I do not need to completely unify with some other individual being, as with his complete line of thinking and conclusions.

Yes, I agree that discontent is the breeding ground of creativity, but that can happen just within a mind without discussing it someone else, nor is each and very question that ever arises is necessarily due to my discontent only.
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Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Scott wrote:There was a miscommunication: I do believe in the mirage of free will.
I think I know in what sense you call it a mirage, but looking at it from the same sense, causality (if that is what I think you look at it from), I do not see it as a mirage.

If it is actually absolutely a mirage, then no individual is actually thinking at all; reasoning or reaching certain conclusions or realizations is also a mirage, agreeing or disagreeing is also a mirage, hence hold no meaning whatsoever.

Including everything that we think or utter. Then why are you or me simply wasting time and energy with trying to express ones understandings? which are surely different.

On the other hand, I have reason to believe that the NOW is the only living moment, and all is determined in and of the NOW, not predetermined in some far distant past, for there is no past or future as far as existence/reality is concerned. Our decisions play a major part as causes that surly produce effects, and that too unique ones.

This makes perfect sense to me as to how such diversities and the agreeing and disagreeing can happen and can change to different and unique positions. Causality creates free will with every individual step it takes towards a sentient mind. The decision-making power in not with causality, but that is created through individual things.

Even this may not make sense to you... it does not to many... hence I better live in my own world... it does not really matter.
Last edited by Sapius on Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Sapius wrote:If it is actually absolutely a mirage, then no individual is actually thinking at all;
I disagree. Thinking occurs in causality; it is just that thinking is caused to occur. One is caused to decide to think.
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sschaula
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Post by sschaula »

Sapius,
I think I know in what sense you call it a mirage, but looking at it from the same sense, causality (if that is what I think you look at it from), I do not see it as a mirage.
I look at it from your perspective. I'm not enlightened. I just know the truth.
If it is actually absolutely a mirage, then no individual is actually thinking at all; reasoning or reaching certain conclusions or realizations is also a mirage, agreeing or disagreeing is also a mirage, hence hold no meaning whatsoever.
That's pretty much accurate.
Including everything that we think or utter. Then why are you or me simply wasting time and energy with trying to express ones understandings? which are surely different.
We are wasting our time because we don't know any better. Lets consider this idea from an enlightened perspective, though: since we are illusory, we don't have time to waste, or any ability to know better.
On the other hand, I have reason to believe that the NOW is the only living moment, and all is determined in and of the NOW, not predetermined in some far distant past, for there is no past or future as far as existence/reality is concerned.
Yes, you're right. Now is all there is. However, the state of things now was determined by the state of things before now. What happens now determines what happens after now.
Our decisions play a major part as causes that surly produce effects, and that too unique ones.
So you are agreeing with the statement I just made....good.
This makes perfect sense to me as to how such diversities and the agreeing and disagreeing can happen and can change to different and unique positions. Causality creates free will with every individual step it takes towards a sentient mind. The decision-making power in not with causality, but that is created through individual things.
You lost me after "this makes perfect sense to me".
Even this may not make sense to you... it does not to many... hence I better live in my own world... it does not really matter.
Okay, as long as you're feeling good about your choices there is no need to change them.
- Scott
Elizabeth Isabelle
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Post by Elizabeth Isabelle »

Sapius wrote:This makes perfect sense to me as to how such diversities and the agreeing and disagreeing can happen and can change to different and unique positions. Causality creates free will with every individual step it takes towards a sentient mind. The decision-making power in not with causality, but that is created through individual things.
I think it would help if you defined what you mean by "free will" in this context.
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Sapius
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Post by Sapius »

Elizabeth Isabelle wrote:
Sapius wrote:If it is actually absolutely a mirage, then no individual is actually thinking at all;
I disagree. Thinking occurs in causality; it is just that thinking is caused to occur.
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Yes, "thinking occurs in causality", but it is just that thinking is caused to occur 'in and through a causally created particular individual thing'
One is caused to decide to think
I don’t really get this. I can understand that one is caused to think, but how is one caused to decide before one can think that one should or shouln't think? Is that choice even possible?

However, if I am caused to decide, then whose decision is it any ways? Is it causalities or mine? Is causality a “thing” in the first place that can or does make decisions?

One is indeed caused to decide, but it is the ONE that is caused, hence the individuality, uniqueness, of every different thing and though, through their own unique causal conditions.
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Leyla Shen
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Post by Leyla Shen »

I think one of the most common misconceptions of Emptiness I've seen is the idea that things that exist don't exist (usually, this idea is passed off under the term "illusory").

Illusory does not mean that a thing that exists doesn't really exist; it means that a thing that exists always has causes, despite that one cannot ever see the infinitude of causes when looking at the thing.

[General edit.]

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