A question for the enlightened.

[Cahoot]

With good humor and kindness, Kunga wrote:

yes...i know what your saying...but do you belive all that yourself ? :)

Since you know what I’m saying, then it’s only fair to suggestively assert that I also know all that myself, rather than I believe all that myself. :)

And, from the rest of what you wrote, it appears that you hold the view that belief is a necessary aspect of the human condition, though apparently, it has brought no peace, unless you consider peace to be an experience separate from other experiences, rather than a Beingness that suffuses all experience.

Though, if peace does depend upon conditions, then this is something to examine.

[Kunga]

people belive that there is a creator God...to bring some peace into their lives...i know that for a fact because i once belived in a Creator God and it gave me peace to know there was a higher power over-seeing this chaos and suffering...to somehow feel that there is a "father" in heaven protecting us....and there seems to be some kind of power in prayer....or maybe it's just subliminal security to have a common bond with others that have the same belifes as yourself....but as i saw the injustices and unrelenting suffering in the world i couldn't fathom there being a God or higher being protecting the innocent people from evil....it angered me to think that God could allow dispicable atrocities to just go on...how could he just watch and not do anything to stop it ???????? Free will. Fuck free will. i would rather live in a perfect society where there was never crime or any atrocities.....but yet i understand without freewill we will never evolve into the spiritual or peaceful species that would be ideal for living in a Utopia.....we would be like programed robots...instead of learning from the school of hard knocks (Earth).

And now i get angry that Buddha and the Bodhisattvas are not protecting the innocent children from rape & murder.....

There really is no peace in this world. Peace is an ideal. Something we have to learn before there is really peace ...total peace on Earth....if that is possible....




Science can't even proove it .

Animals can't belive in anything....only man that can reason, forms intricate belife systems. They may make fun of people having a lower IQ that belive in God...but it is acually a sign of intelligence to go beyond basic survival instincts and to constrct elaborate religious systems...whether they are based on truth or not....

[Kunga]

sorry..double post (i just deleted)

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

And now i get angry that Buddha and the Bodhisattvas are not protecting the innocent children from rape & murder.....

That's silly. The idea is to develop the Buddha nature in you. You go protect those children. Get a job at DCF or something.

Animals can't belive in anything...

How do you know this? Beluga whales have an average IQ of 155. They don't have opposing thumbs, so they never got distracted by at the "things" that humans get distracted by or absorbed in. They could spend all of their time in intellectual pursuits that only the brightest humans could hope to understand.

[Tomas]

Animals can't believe in anything....only man that can reason, forms intricate belief systems.

The common housecat willingly chooses which lap to sit in (on). I'm not particularly fond of the critters, yet when I visit for the first time people with cats, they gravitate towards me. An old buddy named Brady, his cat refuses to be around outsider humans other than me. Brady just can't figure that out, I don't waste time trying to figure out why. So why wouldn't an ordinary cat think upon which lap to set its body on?

[Kunga]

yes...animals are extremely intelligent...and more humane than humans in a lot of ways...but i'm talking about the development of a spirtual nature....like how humans have worshiped the sun, fire,god,gods, etc. Humans have always thought there was a higher intelligence besides himself....and throughout human social evolution religion evolved....but now that i think about it...how much wiser the animal for just living by it's natural instincts...but maybe it is mans instinct to seek something higher than itself.....maybe man created God out of a need to transcend his animal nature ?

[Blair]

Okay, so you do see God as a man, albeit a super-man.

Not man, - Hermaphrodite like, as it's understood by humans.

Now, where do you see God as being? Is there a throne somewhere?

God resides where "he" (I use he for the sake of clarity) is most appreciated. He can be anywhere, but he's not. he's only interested in those who are able to recognize and acknowledge him. The rest is just human soul refuse that gets tossed out into the trash, or "hell" if you like. If you show a sufficient amount of humility and real intelligence, that is the type that can recognize the truly superior, before God, he will possibly want to keep you around in essence, (your soul is saved, preserved, in a form that is far more than advanced than how a human made computer does it)






.

[Kunga]

LOL....seriously..the GOD i used to belive in was full of mercy and love ....Jesus said to turn your cheek the other way (to be totally humiliated if someone chose to humiliate you/hurt you)...

[Glostik91]

To be enlightened to Truth means your knowledge is unlimited. In other words one who is enlightened can say, "I am enlightened to everything."

The reason I ask is because I want someone to say they are enlightened so I can ask them, "What is Truth?"

• Re: claims of enlightenment.

Truth orientation, for starters, is the ability to discern for oneself which words and behaviors appear as stemming from truth. This process is necessarily flawed as we can only examine words and behaviors in our own context, not that from someone else. So there always will be uncertainty about the exact motivation or truthfulness of the source. Perhaps just random bull's eyes? For this reason one can only know ones own enlightenment.

• Re: what is truth.

Truth is existence, truth is the way; truth is life.

But only in the sense of the constant, the eternal life. The truth of the infinite, the "voice of nature and time".

All that changes, fluctuates, announces beginnings and disappears into some finality, like stars collapsing, is not true and remains illusive. A human, my life, your taste, pain and pleasure: suffering, delusion: it's truth opposing: it's death while others call if life. But all experience it in some ways, all deal with it nevertheless.

All that approaches forever, breaths longitude, spanning the ages as if just moments, aspires timelessness, aligns with eternal and unchanging reality is truthful, truth loving. It's life while others call it death or some vague abstract alienating idea. But all experience it in some ways, all deal with it nevertheless.

When I read this in my mind it feels profound. Then I think "but what truth is there in it?" Therefore I analyze it:

Truth is existence, truth is the way, truth is the life.

It sounds right. But my ears have deceived me before. So, how do I know that truth is existence? What if truth doesn't exist?
What is the truth the way to? Enlightenment? What is so great about being enlightened?
The truth is life? Does this mean people who don't have truth are dead?

But only in the sense of the constant, the eternal life. The truth of the infinite, the "voice of nature and time".

So something that is not constant does not contain truth. Therefore randomness abounded before time.

All that changes, fluctuates, announces beginnings and disappears into some finality, like stars collapsing, is not true and remains illusive. A human, my life, your taste, pain and pleasure: suffering, delusion: it's truth opposing: it's death while others call if life. But all experience it in some ways, all deal with it nevertheless.

So something that doesn't change is true. Everything outside of the universe never changes. Therefore if I want to find truth I must go outside of the universe. How am I to accomplish this task?

All that approaches forever, breaths longitude, spanning the ages as if just moments, aspires timelessness, aligns with eternal and unchanging reality is truthful, truth loving. It's life while others call it death or some vague abstract alienating idea. But all experience it in some ways, all deal with it nevertheless.

Everything is always approaching forever but never gets there. Eternity doesn't exist because nobody can perceive it, yet when I read this paragraph it seems as though you can. How is this possible? (interpretation taken from bold)

[Glostik91]

1. Acknowledgment of God.
2. Non-acknowledgment of God.
3. Acknowledgment of God.

It seems like you're going in a big circle. What profit is there?

[Glostik91]

It is supposed to be possible if you get all of the materials right in your head. If you have some matches you can light a fire, and all sorts of other things. If you know what created the universe you should be able to use those materials to create everything else. The theory of everything is an accepted theory.

If you know what created everything then what created this creator?

Well the creator was just 2 bubbles, and they were created by logic that nothing cannot exist.

I don't understand. What do you mean by two bubbles?

Nothing cannot exist is logical, I agree.

[Glostik91]

Best place to start is to acknowledge that which logically cannot be denied: "appearances are happening". It's mundane, but it's the basis of all further understanding.

How do we know appearances are happening?

[Glostik91]

Nothing does exist as something, it is thought that it is nothing because it is invisible, but nothing does exist as something, therefore nothing becomes something.

Imagine God as being the invisible something which we'll call invisible consciousness, is it fair to say God is nothing because God is invisible?

What? The definition of nothing is no thing. Therefore it cannot be a thing. It is the opposite of a thing.

[Glostik91]

I was wondering who here claims to be enlightened?

You will find glos, that besides the three owners here all Australians by the way there is only Diebert, Cory and Jehu (though they are far too modest to say), the rest will just make you wonder WHY-oh-WHY they are even here.
So what about you?

me? You guessed it--
too modest!
:)

What about me? Hmmmmm... Even David Quinn doesn't know all truth.

It is wholly beyond the capacity of the mind to experience or grasp. We simply have to accept that it will always be a mystery which can never be solved.

I understand his whole book. Does this make me enlightened? I also noticed that he conveniently placed this phrase here:

Unfortunately, I cannot help the reader take this final step. It is something he has to do on his own.

And here he says.

The next step is for him to meditate on it, push the logical implications of it as far as they can go, and make the final connections in his own mind that will lead to his enlightenment.

[Tomas]

.


-Kunga-
Yes, animals are extremely intelligent and more humane than humans in a lot of ways.

-tomas-
The parents of a specific breed of animal is obviously humane in how it treats its offspring. Some breeds though, consume their offspring. Why that is is unknown. I'd venture an opinion but that's about as far as it'd go. Perhaps that's why Jesus cast the demons (Legion) into the herd of swine, because they are one of the breeds that consume their own. Guess it's a form of reverse-cannibalism. In Leviticus & Deuteronomy, it states not to eat the flesh of swine because it has cloven hooves but doesn't chew the cud. Jesus apparently didn't think too much of those critters as the demons were willing to go into the swine. And again, the swine didn't seem to mind too much as far as I can tell. Perhaps the swine are getting revenge all these years later with their version of swine flu H1N1 on humans. Minnesota is seeing a spate of swine infections in their herds with all the resulting mutations, too. Anyways, I'm a strict proponent of dietary law.


-Kunga-
But I'm talking about the development of a spirtual nature like how humans have worshiped the sun, fire, god, gods, etc.

-tomas-
I've no serious disagreement with sun worship. On a clear day, you can see forever. Now, moon worship is a different can of worms altogether. Last night, the moon was ebbing and there was Jupiter just below. Lovely sight, and good for navigation. Ahh, another bonus was being raised in the country and able to navigate at night using the stars as auxiliary tools.

Insofar as people literally worshipping the sun, fire, gods etc. for a spiritual benefit what have they to lose? What part of a spiritual nature are they ceding to (fill in the blank) hole in their life? Who in the grave is going to judge them for what they did in this life. No one as far as I reckon.

Fire is useful in the nights as it provides warmth in the northern climates when the sky is dark at 5 p.m. .. doesn't rise till 7 a.m. All hail fire!


-Kunga-
Humans have always thought there was a higher intelligence besides himself and throughout human social evolution religion evolved.

-tomas-
I've no disagreement nor insight to provide on that. One can only look within for an answer of that magnitude.


-Kunga-
But now that I think about it how much wiser the animal for just living by it's natural instincts.

-tomas-
Ditto for the human family raised in the wilds of the Amazon Basin.
Evidence From Children and Monkeys > http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/jour ... 7/abstract


-Kunga-
But maybe it is man's instinct to seek something higher than itself.

-tomas-
IMO there is, instinct evolves over millenia. A Creator is out there (in here). For me, David Quinn and prince say it best. I'd say it in person considerably better, but my writing abilities are severely limited by a slow typing speed ;-/ .. it! just comes out a bit jumbled on these sort of conversant forums. The telephone I'd come out more clear on my thoughts.


-Kunga-
Maybe man created God out of a need to transcend his animal nature?

-tomas-
We are just another colony created for this specific Earth climate. The Totality has many creations out there specifically designed to inhabit that climate. No doubt whatsoever. I don't see man ever living on the Moon, Mars. Gotta run to the Space Shuttle.

More later .. as the spirit moves :-)

Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason

VietNam veteran - 1971

[Cahoot]

Glostik91 asked:
What profit is there?

Assuming that you are using the dictionary definition of profit, then the “what” of your question is for you to define, as the gain pertaining to that “what” resides within the context of your values, and is tied to circumstance.

For example, and this is just a hypothetical, within the circumstance of a discussion board you may consider “profit” to be correlated to word count, which would make word count the “what.” Then in terms of profit, the net gain would be what is returned to you over and above your expenditure. You recoup your expenditure, then gain something more than that expenditure to realize a profit.

Within the context of this hypothetical, defined by the circumstance of a discussion board, for one who thinks in terms of profit, and perhaps also of loss, then one of the tangible commodities by which profit is measured could be raw word count, and the human energy spent to produce that word count.

Applying that hypothetical to this particular dialogue, you have profited greatly. You expended the mental and physical energy required to produce just four words structured as a question, while I obviously expended more energy to produce more words than four. So by the standard of word count, you profited greatly. You got a lot of words in return for few words.

It may be noted, though, that the concept of “profit” as a net gain over expenditure does not necessarily apply to discussion boards, though it does apply to corn futures, pork bellies, investments, passbook savings accounts, fees for service, welfare checks, and so on.

Discussion boards function more along the lines of giving. Give much, gain much. The gain is of a personal nature, though, and is to be discovered through the actual giving, rather than theoretical conceptualizing about the giving.

[Blair]

He sounds like a bit of a snob.

Yes God is a snob, why wouldn't he be? he has meticulous taste.

If you can't see that a higher being "painted" the world, in highly spectacular 3D, which humans like to imitate crudely and repulsively by painting in 2D, then you are just a schmuck. Why would God be interested in you?

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Why would God be interested in you?

Do you believe that God made all people? Do you believe that God makes mistakes?

[Blair]

God made the perfect blueprints of human male and female, that were manifested through energy manipulation. They had access to infinite life, no suffering etc but Adam and Eve disobeyed God, by the mechanism of free will. It's Gods experiment.

God had to make this experiment to create a relative experience to its own. God is indestructible and without flaw, thus the examination of free-will was neccessary.

[Animus]

Prince, I asked you before about your assertion of Free-Will. Why does St. Paul disagree with you? And why is "Free-Will" replaced by "An act of volition" in later translations? Why is "Free-Will" only ever found in the Old Testament of the King James Bible and immediately preceding the word "offering" on every account?

If "Free-Will" was such an important part of Christian scripture, wouldn't it make sense that it would make many more appearances than the, less than one dozen times, it does appear and all in the Old Testament followed by "offering". I don't even see how the phrase can be broken up, it always appears as "a Free-Will offering". Free-Will is incompatible with the words of St. Paul and Jesus Christ himself:

John 6:44 - 46

[Jesus answered.] "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

Romans 9:6 - 29

6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."[c]

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."[l]


How do you reconcile St. Paul's statements to the Roman's regarding God's sovereignty with the concept of "Free-Will"?

[Blair]

You are talking about average people, who have an average understanding of god's word.

They simply don't know any better. God picks out those who are able to communicate to the "masses", he care's not about the scope. The true genius gets it, that's all that matters.

[1456200423]

.

-tomas-
We are just another colony created for this specific Earth climate. The Totality has many creations out there specifically designed to inhabit that climate. No doubt whatsoever. I don't see man ever living on the Moon, Mars. Gotta run to the Space Shuttle.

More later .. as the spirit moves :-)

Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason

VietNam veteran - 1971

Now that Mars is warming up, humans could easily find a way to colonize it. What is to stop human colonizing Moon or Mars? We humans are more versatile than you give us credit for, maybe?

[Kunga]

Mars Terraforming:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1V63LnUFeo

[Kunga]

Prince...was Jesus hostile ? i know you are trying to defend God and your belifes...but isn't the message of Jesus one of loving your enemy ?

He was the Prince of Peace.

_/\_

[Steven Coyle]

the dishwalla is alive and on