Hi,
I used to study with Kevin and other philosophers like him. I used to be an atheist and didn't believe in Jesus Christ or that I had sin, or that I needed to have my guilt forgiven.
I had this mistaken notion that I was innocent of all guilt. From whence comes this idea?
Consided this scripture:
"...to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ: In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words... As you have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him... Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the principles of this world and not after Christ..." Col 2:2-8
ALL OF YOU, ON THIS BOARD, MAN HAS ROBBED YOU OF YOUR SALVATION! That is unless you have accepted Jesus Christ by faith.
One of my chief concerns is for you Kevin Solway, David Quinn and your students - in the garden of Eden there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Are your students eating fruit off that tree, are you leading them to that tree? David, did you eat of that fruit? I know Kevin discipled you - quit spreading his heresies, the consequences are eternal, turn from your sin!
Those philosophies have convinced you that you're without guilt or that it doesn't need to be paid for. Jesus Christ paid a tremendous price to redeem you...
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)... For by grace are ye save through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast..." - Eph. 2:1-9
Jesus is the ULTIMATE REALITY, seek him and his forgiveness... and receive his grace and be free from the bondage of men's philosophies...
Sincerely,
Tim
Is philosophy a snare of the Devil?
Nope
"ALL OF YOU, ON THIS BOARD, MAN HAS ROBBED YOU OF YOUR SALVATION! That is unless you have accepted Jesus Christ by faith."
Funnily enough I heard something similar from a muslim friend the other day.... Which one of you is wrong?
"Those philosophies have convinced you that you're without guilt or that it doesn't need to be paid for."
What philosophies are you talking about exactly.......and why do assume that everyone here agrees with QRS?
You sound like you have a few issues but I'm glad you have found something to cling on to. I wish I could be persuaded so easily.
Funnily enough I heard something similar from a muslim friend the other day.... Which one of you is wrong?
"Those philosophies have convinced you that you're without guilt or that it doesn't need to be paid for."
What philosophies are you talking about exactly.......and why do assume that everyone here agrees with QRS?
You sound like you have a few issues but I'm glad you have found something to cling on to. I wish I could be persuaded so easily.
The truth is that most people need to feel guilty about what they do because they are so scared of what they might do if they had no guilt. Most of the human population wouldn't be able to handle life if they didn't feel like there was a supreme conscious "God" watching over them 24/7.
It's the philosopher wishing to break free from the herd that carrys true guilt on his shoulders. With no good reason to stay with the herd, he knows it is only through the pursuit of Truth and living in accordance with it that he can realize his totality. The guilt comes from knowing that he's still wishing instead of doing. The herd never experiences this guilt because their claim is that "they are only human". What they should be saying is "they are only animals".
It's the philosopher wishing to break free from the herd that carrys true guilt on his shoulders. With no good reason to stay with the herd, he knows it is only through the pursuit of Truth and living in accordance with it that he can realize his totality. The guilt comes from knowing that he's still wishing instead of doing. The herd never experiences this guilt because their claim is that "they are only human". What they should be saying is "they are only animals".
as far as I'm concerned its all just a method of persuasion...the guilt game through the idea of "sin" & damnation/salvation is an artificial problem the religion needed in order to attract followers.
They knew people would ask well why should I follow Jesus, have faith in Jesus? So they created this false problem of sin, this imaginary disease, and they offered the cure to their problem...JC
guillible and insecure people fell for it
They knew people would ask well why should I follow Jesus, have faith in Jesus? So they created this false problem of sin, this imaginary disease, and they offered the cure to their problem...JC
guillible and insecure people fell for it
Religion
I'm afraid it's not nearly as innocuous as that; religion is not Pepsi. People have a deep need for religion. It's found in every culture; it's part of how people define themselves. It satisfies some psychological need people have.hades wrote:So they created this false problem of sin, this imaginary disease, and they offered the cure to their problem...JC
guillible and insecure people fell for it
In the case of Christaniy, you have the image of the Great All-knowing Father who, if you are disobedient, will punish you by torturing you forever. Being disobedient may include thinking the wrong thoughts.
What does that tell you about the people who have a psychological need to believe in such a thing?
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David Quinn
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Tim wrote:
Are you saying that you have no knowledge at all of good and evil? Why do you assert that reading the Bible is good? Or turning away from Jesus is evil?
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Who are these other philosophers that are like Kevin? I would like to meet them.I used to study with Kevin and other philosophers like him.
I gorged myself. Ate everything I could.One of my chief concerns is for you Kevin Solway, David Quinn and your students - in the garden of Eden there was a tree of knowledge of good and evil. Are your students eating fruit off that tree, are you leading them to that tree? David, did you eat of that fruit?
Are you saying that you have no knowledge at all of good and evil? Why do you assert that reading the Bible is good? Or turning away from Jesus is evil?
Why is that good? How do you know?Jesus is the ULTIMATE REALITY, seek him and his forgiveness... and receive his grace and be free from the bondage of men's philosophies...
-
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Dan Rowden
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Some pretentious git wrote:
Please explain this "tremendous" sacrifice demonstrated by a being that knew he wouldn't die and would be seated at God's side in the end anyway. What sacrifice is there?
Dan Rowden
What price? What is your coinage? He spent most of his - supposed - life being adored by people. Sounds like Britney to me. So he was crucified? So what? You think people didn't die worse deaths for their cause? Job got a far worse deal, dontcha think?Jesus Christ paid a tremendous price to redeem you...
Please explain this "tremendous" sacrifice demonstrated by a being that knew he wouldn't die and would be seated at God's side in the end anyway. What sacrifice is there?
Dan Rowden
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yeshua8787
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- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:29 am
A response
I'm going to respond to the overall tone of what I am hearing...
I'm hearing a lot of ideas about the reality of things that I have heard some philosopher spout a million times over.
But you're right David, about Kevin being different - his philosophy is like a mixture of gnosticism, Buddhism and nietzsche - didn't Satan promise eve enlightenment back in the garden of eden... And that tree you ate from will not give you life.
Dan, Jesus did taste death for everyman - but since He had no sin, it was impossible for death to hold Him. And Jesus wasn't adored - except by those who believed upon Him - He was hated by the rest.
The sacrifice is that He, being God, came to earth and was slain by His own creation via a humiliating death so that they would have the opportunity to live forever. The reason this sounds absurd Dan, is because you have a pagan worldview.
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jew a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." - 1Cor 1:23
The last thing I'd like to address is the Sin Problem. There is a consensus on this board that this an artificial problem created in order to disease mankind with guilt and to offer a solution whereby to control him with.
I once to felt this way when I was an atheist. It was a very clever argument that ROBBED me of my salvation for a time.
YOU HAVE GUILT. You can explain it away, but it's still there. You can sear your conscience, but it's still there. You can go to some philosopher or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and find you a soporific doctrine that will give you an illusion that all these things about sin, guilt, God, Christ and eternity are just fairy tales.
But you will still be held accountable for the way you chose to live your life by an All-Knowing, Omnipotent and Holy God who cannot tolerate sin and will punish in full if you reject his substitutionary sacrifice for sins, His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
Eternal fire is very real in light of rejecting Jesus Christ whom God set forth to pay the punishment our sin debt. Can you pay it? If God is just, it must be paid to the hilt - reject Christ and reject your only covering.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man...
I would really like to get to the bottom of your unbelief - I want to demonstrate the complete irrationality of your position of not accepting Christ -
Regards,
Tim
I'm hearing a lot of ideas about the reality of things that I have heard some philosopher spout a million times over.
But you're right David, about Kevin being different - his philosophy is like a mixture of gnosticism, Buddhism and nietzsche - didn't Satan promise eve enlightenment back in the garden of eden... And that tree you ate from will not give you life.
Dan, Jesus did taste death for everyman - but since He had no sin, it was impossible for death to hold Him. And Jesus wasn't adored - except by those who believed upon Him - He was hated by the rest.
The sacrifice is that He, being God, came to earth and was slain by His own creation via a humiliating death so that they would have the opportunity to live forever. The reason this sounds absurd Dan, is because you have a pagan worldview.
"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jew a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." - 1Cor 1:23
The last thing I'd like to address is the Sin Problem. There is a consensus on this board that this an artificial problem created in order to disease mankind with guilt and to offer a solution whereby to control him with.
I once to felt this way when I was an atheist. It was a very clever argument that ROBBED me of my salvation for a time.
YOU HAVE GUILT. You can explain it away, but it's still there. You can sear your conscience, but it's still there. You can go to some philosopher or Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and find you a soporific doctrine that will give you an illusion that all these things about sin, guilt, God, Christ and eternity are just fairy tales.
But you will still be held accountable for the way you chose to live your life by an All-Knowing, Omnipotent and Holy God who cannot tolerate sin and will punish in full if you reject his substitutionary sacrifice for sins, His only begotten Son Jesus Christ.
Eternal fire is very real in light of rejecting Jesus Christ whom God set forth to pay the punishment our sin debt. Can you pay it? If God is just, it must be paid to the hilt - reject Christ and reject your only covering.
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man...
I would really like to get to the bottom of your unbelief - I want to demonstrate the complete irrationality of your position of not accepting Christ -
Regards,
Tim
By seeming chance I was born into a family with atheistic and agnostic views going back at least three generations and was never instructed in religion, never went to church, never prayed, was not baptised or christened. My mind (seemingly beyond my control) gravitated towards reason, analysis and philosophy and not towards faith, religion and Christianity.
Perhaps understandably I don't believe in God or that Jesus is my saviour. However I have been a mostly compassionate, gentle and kind person throughout my life. I don't think I have a single enemy.
Despite this God has chosen to send me off to be subjected to grotesquely painful and continuous torture for the rest of eternity. The afterlife that God has chosen to inflict upon me is so utterly utterly horrendous that the faintest imagined inkling of such a state reduces people to quivering cowering wrecks.
Being omnipotent God has the power to stop this torture at any time - in fact it is easier for him to do so than it is a human being blinking an eyelid. But apparently he won't.
If this is the case, then God is possibly the single most cruel, sadistic and evil being that has ever existed. In comparison he makes Hitler + Pol Pot + Stalin + Mao X 1000000000000000 look like angelic beings of pure benevolence.
Oh and by the way, I almost forgot: God loves me.
Perhaps understandably I don't believe in God or that Jesus is my saviour. However I have been a mostly compassionate, gentle and kind person throughout my life. I don't think I have a single enemy.
Despite this God has chosen to send me off to be subjected to grotesquely painful and continuous torture for the rest of eternity. The afterlife that God has chosen to inflict upon me is so utterly utterly horrendous that the faintest imagined inkling of such a state reduces people to quivering cowering wrecks.
Being omnipotent God has the power to stop this torture at any time - in fact it is easier for him to do so than it is a human being blinking an eyelid. But apparently he won't.
If this is the case, then God is possibly the single most cruel, sadistic and evil being that has ever existed. In comparison he makes Hitler + Pol Pot + Stalin + Mao X 1000000000000000 look like angelic beings of pure benevolence.
Oh and by the way, I almost forgot: God loves me.
Well, Tim, assuming you are serious about all this...
Interesting book you got there. Let's read on a bit further from what you quoted:
In fact....
Hmmm....
Interesting book you got there. Let's read on a bit further from what you quoted:
That sure does seem to say that the Old Testament law doesn't apply any more, doesn't it? Sounds like Christ 'fulfilled' the law, so it need no longer be followed by men.Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Yep, looks that way... Delivered from the law. Freed.Rom.7:4, 6
"Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ .... We are delivered from the law, that being dead."
Okay, so it looks like Christ over-ruled the Old Testament laws.Rom.10:4 "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
Yup, seems clear enough. Christ must have represented a new idea. God must have changed his mind about those wacky old laws.Gal.5:18
"But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law."
Nope, he didn't change his mind.Mal.3:6
"For I am the Lord, I change not."
In fact....
That looks like it says the Old Testament law still applies, doesn't it? Seems pretty clear, actually.Mt.5:18-19
"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven."
Everlasting?1 Chr.16:15
"Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant."
Lk.16:17
"It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."
Hmmm....
Well, does Jesus say you should follow the Old Testament laws, or not? Can we easily decide from reading the book... or... maybe we'd have to think for ourselves?Jesus is the ULTIMATE REALITY, seek him and his forgiveness... and receive his grace and be free from the bondage of men's philosophies...
Well, it looks like thinking for yourself is not allowed, either. Kind of a bind, really.Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the principles of this world and not after Christ..." Col 2:2-8
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yeshua8787
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:29 am
Lawlessness
I will adress this sinful position you are taking against God's law called "antinomianism". This is the gospel of lawlessness and death.
We also must distinguish between what is occuring under the old covenant and new covenant and how they relate.
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you want to know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves to sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered..." - Rom. 6:15-17
You're distorting scripture to make the point for how the bible admonishes us to lawlessness... Or that it contradicts itself.
"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness..." John 3:4
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who say, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in him. but whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him..." - John 2:3-5
You use the scripture: "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" - to make a case for the abolishment of all old testament law...
There are laws, ordinances, statutes... the old testament ordinances: ceremonial laws, feasts, and sacrifices which uniquely seperated the Jews and gentiles we're fulfilled in Jesus Christ's death upon the cross. God's moral law - the ten commandments - was not taken away, but brought under the New Covenant, it reflects Jesus divine nature (Matt. 5:17-19).
Rom.7:4, 6 - "Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ... We are delivered from the law, that being dead."
Not freedom to do what God's law disallows (6:1, 15; 8:4; 3:31) but freedom from the spiritual liabilities and penalties of God's law. For those who have faith in Christ the law with it's condemnation and penalties no longer has jurisdiction over us.
Rom.10:4 - "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
..."end" means that belief in Christ as Laord and Savior end the sinner's futile quest for righteousness through his imperfect attempts to save himself by efforts to obey the law - justification is not by the works of the law, but by the hearing of faith.
Gal.5:18 - "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." - because love is the fulfilment of the law, and if you're not in Christ you're not led of the Spirit... either you live by the power of the Holy Spirit or by the law which will only produce death...
Mal.3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I change not."
"...that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us..." - Heb. 6:18
Mt.5:18-19 - "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus Christ fulfilled the law by keeping it perfectly and then dying upon the cross.He fulfilled the moral, ceremonial and judicial aspects of the law.
1 Chr.16:15 - "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant." - notice that there was a condition: 'be ye mindful' - the Isrealites were not mindful... God forwarned the consequences of this in Deuteromony 28 and 32 - and executed the judgement according to His word.
Lk.16:17 - "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." The word says...
Heb 4:12 - "For the word of God is living and pwerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joins and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him whom we must give account."
As Christians, we have the mind of Christ, written in His word, everything else compared to this is bondage - I can't see how you're thinking freely, your thought is very much under the dominion of darkness and sin, something that Jesus Christ died to set us free of...
Is. 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
This is our immediate future; a holy God will punish sin of a people who have forsook His holy word.
I look forward to continuing this discussion...
Regards,
Tim
We also must distinguish between what is occuring under the old covenant and new covenant and how they relate.
"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! Do you want to know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves to sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered..." - Rom. 6:15-17
You're distorting scripture to make the point for how the bible admonishes us to lawlessness... Or that it contradicts itself.
"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness..." John 3:4
"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who say, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth of God is not in him. but whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him..." - John 2:3-5
You use the scripture: "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;" - to make a case for the abolishment of all old testament law...
There are laws, ordinances, statutes... the old testament ordinances: ceremonial laws, feasts, and sacrifices which uniquely seperated the Jews and gentiles we're fulfilled in Jesus Christ's death upon the cross. God's moral law - the ten commandments - was not taken away, but brought under the New Covenant, it reflects Jesus divine nature (Matt. 5:17-19).
Rom.7:4, 6 - "Ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ... We are delivered from the law, that being dead."
Not freedom to do what God's law disallows (6:1, 15; 8:4; 3:31) but freedom from the spiritual liabilities and penalties of God's law. For those who have faith in Christ the law with it's condemnation and penalties no longer has jurisdiction over us.
Rom.10:4 - "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."
..."end" means that belief in Christ as Laord and Savior end the sinner's futile quest for righteousness through his imperfect attempts to save himself by efforts to obey the law - justification is not by the works of the law, but by the hearing of faith.
Gal.5:18 - "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." - because love is the fulfilment of the law, and if you're not in Christ you're not led of the Spirit... either you live by the power of the Holy Spirit or by the law which will only produce death...
Mal.3:6 - "For I am the Lord, I change not."
"...that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us..." - Heb. 6:18
Mt.5:18-19 - "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven." - Jesus Christ fulfilled the law by keeping it perfectly and then dying upon the cross.He fulfilled the moral, ceremonial and judicial aspects of the law.
1 Chr.16:15 - "Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations ... an everlasting covenant." - notice that there was a condition: 'be ye mindful' - the Isrealites were not mindful... God forwarned the consequences of this in Deuteromony 28 and 32 - and executed the judgement according to His word.
Lk.16:17 - "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail." The word says...
Heb 4:12 - "For the word of God is living and pwerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joins and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him whom we must give account."
As Christians, we have the mind of Christ, written in His word, everything else compared to this is bondage - I can't see how you're thinking freely, your thought is very much under the dominion of darkness and sin, something that Jesus Christ died to set us free of...
Is. 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.
4 The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.
5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
This is our immediate future; a holy God will punish sin of a people who have forsook His holy word.
I look forward to continuing this discussion...
Regards,
Tim
Tim,
The way I see things, philosophy is not in direct opposition to Christianity. I don't personally know if your beliefs are true or not...they sound dramatic and exciting! I haven't found them to be true, so those beliefs are kind of in limbo for me.
I've found some of the things David and Kevin talk about to be true. I don't think they're great teachers or great human beings...they just found the some truths through philosophy and told me about it. I don't see it as against God, or against Jesus. Sometimes the two seem to correlate...but I haven't really been focusing on that lately. That was more when I didn't understand philosophy as well, and I believed it could be a replacement for religion. Now that I know a little bit more, it's something totally different.
It's just a tool...and it's kind of boring actually. It's not some great thing, like Christianity is...it's just a way of figuring things out. This is why I don't see it as something which is against Christianity.
I do have an open mind about religion. I've asked Jesus into my heart many times, thinking that was the right thing to do, and I've gone to church and read a lot of the bible. I used to care a lot...more than anyone I knew. It's almost as if it doesn't mean anything anymore. When you talk you sound psychotic to me. A lot of the bible DOES contradict itself...even though I'd accept it since I understand it's just various people who composed it (it may not ALL be true, or it may have just been the interpretation was wrong).
I haven't given up on your religion, though. It's just given up on me. I haven't found much of anything there besides a human desire for something greater, and an empty hole in our hearts we need to fill. Also a desire to conquer (you are attempting to conquer people here by winning them over). I went to an Evangelist church for a long time, most of my life, and I know how it is. I know the people...they're pretty normal and nice people. I prefer them to "worldy" people. I love hanging out with them...but it's impossible for me to find any truth in the idea that God created this universe and that he sent his son (which was part of him) to die in order to get people out of hell. It brings up too many unanswerable questions, such as, "Why was hell there in the first place? Did God create it?" It must be like santa's lump of coal, instead of the thing you've been wishing for all year. The logistics of God making himself human, yet still being God (whatever God is...omni-everything?), makes no sense. And the bible says Jesus was God, yet there were deficiencies...like he had to go become baptised by John, and he had to fast for 40 days and be tempted by "the Devil"....who I don't even believe is supposed to exist. I think the devil was just temptation personified...but that may be a wrong point of view, since I'm a philosopher.
Anyway, I'd be interested in talking to you Tim. If you could get AIM I'd appreciate it...it makes discussion a lot easier. My screenname on there is muju808.
-Scott
The way I see things, philosophy is not in direct opposition to Christianity. I don't personally know if your beliefs are true or not...they sound dramatic and exciting! I haven't found them to be true, so those beliefs are kind of in limbo for me.
I've found some of the things David and Kevin talk about to be true. I don't think they're great teachers or great human beings...they just found the some truths through philosophy and told me about it. I don't see it as against God, or against Jesus. Sometimes the two seem to correlate...but I haven't really been focusing on that lately. That was more when I didn't understand philosophy as well, and I believed it could be a replacement for religion. Now that I know a little bit more, it's something totally different.
It's just a tool...and it's kind of boring actually. It's not some great thing, like Christianity is...it's just a way of figuring things out. This is why I don't see it as something which is against Christianity.
I do have an open mind about religion. I've asked Jesus into my heart many times, thinking that was the right thing to do, and I've gone to church and read a lot of the bible. I used to care a lot...more than anyone I knew. It's almost as if it doesn't mean anything anymore. When you talk you sound psychotic to me. A lot of the bible DOES contradict itself...even though I'd accept it since I understand it's just various people who composed it (it may not ALL be true, or it may have just been the interpretation was wrong).
I haven't given up on your religion, though. It's just given up on me. I haven't found much of anything there besides a human desire for something greater, and an empty hole in our hearts we need to fill. Also a desire to conquer (you are attempting to conquer people here by winning them over). I went to an Evangelist church for a long time, most of my life, and I know how it is. I know the people...they're pretty normal and nice people. I prefer them to "worldy" people. I love hanging out with them...but it's impossible for me to find any truth in the idea that God created this universe and that he sent his son (which was part of him) to die in order to get people out of hell. It brings up too many unanswerable questions, such as, "Why was hell there in the first place? Did God create it?" It must be like santa's lump of coal, instead of the thing you've been wishing for all year. The logistics of God making himself human, yet still being God (whatever God is...omni-everything?), makes no sense. And the bible says Jesus was God, yet there were deficiencies...like he had to go become baptised by John, and he had to fast for 40 days and be tempted by "the Devil"....who I don't even believe is supposed to exist. I think the devil was just temptation personified...but that may be a wrong point of view, since I'm a philosopher.
Anyway, I'd be interested in talking to you Tim. If you could get AIM I'd appreciate it...it makes discussion a lot easier. My screenname on there is muju808.
-Scott
Religion etc.
I'm going to bail out of this conversation now, but I'll tell you why I'm bailing. I've been down this road before, I know where it goes, and it's not terribly interesting.
At some point, the Christian has made a "leap of faith". To the Christian, that "leap" may be no big deal (or it may be). But that leap is not logically justifiable, and is, in fact, a leap of faith. You have to have faith to make that jump, and I don't, and I never will. Christianity considers faith to be a good thing. I consider it to be a deliberate rejection of rationality.
"Faith" is believing something that is not justified by the evidence. The evidence for a Christian god is, in my opinion, extremely weak. In fact, if there were such a god as Jehovah, it would be so completely obvious that arguing against it would be like arguing that I don't have a right arm. If he existed, there would be no need for faith.
I could continue to make arguments, but there is no point. It's like arguing with a paranoid person. It's a different view of reality, and it's a view that I am incapable of accepting as being valid or even possible.
At some point, the Christian has made a "leap of faith". To the Christian, that "leap" may be no big deal (or it may be). But that leap is not logically justifiable, and is, in fact, a leap of faith. You have to have faith to make that jump, and I don't, and I never will. Christianity considers faith to be a good thing. I consider it to be a deliberate rejection of rationality.
"Faith" is believing something that is not justified by the evidence. The evidence for a Christian god is, in my opinion, extremely weak. In fact, if there were such a god as Jehovah, it would be so completely obvious that arguing against it would be like arguing that I don't have a right arm. If he existed, there would be no need for faith.
I could continue to make arguments, but there is no point. It's like arguing with a paranoid person. It's a different view of reality, and it's a view that I am incapable of accepting as being valid or even possible.
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David Quinn
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This is one of my favourite quotes from the Gospels:
Also, what do you think of this quote from the Gospel of Thomas:
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What do you think of it, Tim? Do you put it into practice?"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. Luke 14: 26
Also, what do you think of this quote from the Gospel of Thomas:
Right on the mark, don't you think ?Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that he too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Thomas: 114
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this is a story of a guy named loofy loof
he was a very religious man and a thinker
he saw that he was special
so he thought of how to save the people of the world
he thought when you die, whatever guilt you had in your heart will follow you in eternity
he preached around trying to lift people of whatever they've done so they'll feel less guilty of their own heart
he realized that doing so once does not always lift their heart and neither can he do that to everyone in the world
so he thought "i must build a symbol, a holy icon for all people to drop their guilt on, then they will feel guiltless when they die"
then he thought "something like a statue will not do... it must be something that will be around them all the time and know them from inside out"
then he thought "it shall be God! yet he is too symbolic... it must be something more near to the humans..."
that night, he had a dream. An angel has come to him and showed him a mirror. there he saw himself wearing a white robe, and saw that he was shining from every part of his body.
next day, he woke up and comtemplated his dream. he then realized what he had to do.
"i shall have people put their guilt unto myself, a human, and make myself a God!"
so he began making himself a holy symbol
..to be continued
he was a very religious man and a thinker
he saw that he was special
so he thought of how to save the people of the world
he thought when you die, whatever guilt you had in your heart will follow you in eternity
he preached around trying to lift people of whatever they've done so they'll feel less guilty of their own heart
he realized that doing so once does not always lift their heart and neither can he do that to everyone in the world
so he thought "i must build a symbol, a holy icon for all people to drop their guilt on, then they will feel guiltless when they die"
then he thought "something like a statue will not do... it must be something that will be around them all the time and know them from inside out"
then he thought "it shall be God! yet he is too symbolic... it must be something more near to the humans..."
that night, he had a dream. An angel has come to him and showed him a mirror. there he saw himself wearing a white robe, and saw that he was shining from every part of his body.
next day, he woke up and comtemplated his dream. he then realized what he had to do.
"i shall have people put their guilt unto myself, a human, and make myself a God!"
so he began making himself a holy symbol
..to be continued
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Dan Rowden
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Re: A response
Tim wrote:
I don't have a pagan worldview. And the reason it sounds absurd is that it is.
Dan Rowden
Well, good for him.Dan, Jesus did taste death for everyman - but since He had no sin, it was impossible for death to hold Him.
So what? Lots of people detest Britney Spears as well. Do you think she feels more or less loved or detested?And Jesus wasn't adored - except by those who believed upon Him - He was hated by the rest.
That response is entirely inadequate; it barely even speaks to my point; it only does so because you inserted the word "sacrifice". How can God sacrifice anything? What was lost? Sacrifice denotes loss or the surrender of something. And why characterise Jesus' death as humiliating? As I pointed out, you could say that about a million other people.The sacrifice is that He, being God, came to earth and was slain by His own creation via a humiliating death so that they would have the opportunity to live forever.
The reason this sounds absurd Dan, is because you have a pagan worldview.
I don't have a pagan worldview. And the reason it sounds absurd is that it is.
Dan Rowden
Re: A response
He certainly didn't taste the death of men going to hell for eternal torture by your cruel sadistic "God".yeshua8787 wrote: Dan, Jesus did taste death for everyman - but since He had no sin, it was impossible for death to hold Him.
DavidQuinn000 wrote:Right on the mark, don't you think ?Simon Peter said to them, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life."
Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that he too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Thomas: 114
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That part is said to be added to the gospels at a later date...its suspicious.
I think its saying jesus will guide Mary in such a way as to enlighten her so that she may be among his followers?
It reflects a sort of unity or a letting go of discrimination between male and female identities and properties.
Similar to this part --->
"Thomas 22: when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter the kingdom.â€"
How come the Gospel of Thomas wasn't added to the NT ?
WHat do you make of this :
Gospel of Philip wrote:[Jesus] used to kiss [Mary Magdelena] often on her mouth. The deciples said to him "Why do you love her more than all of us?" The Savior answered and said to them,"Why do I not love you like her? When a blind man and one who sees are both together in darkness, they are no different from one another. When the light comes, then he who sees will see the light, and he who is blind will remain in darkness."
?
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Kevin Solway
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All the gospels were written at different times, probably hundreds of years after Jesus's death. But only some of the gospels were included in the BIble. That is also suspicious. I suspect that the ones that were included were included for political reasons.hades wrote:That part is said to be added to the gospels at a later date...its suspicious.
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yeshua8787
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Gnosticism Isn't Truth
I used to study your ideas Kevin, David and Dan - you all place a great emphasis on the gospel of Thomas; the reason this text isn't found in the Holy Scriptures is because it's heretical gnostic writing, not simply because it is misogynist.
There are no political reasons for the books that are in the new testament - they are coherent cannon and the all communicate the same main ideas, namely: that justification is by Christ alone through faith alone. The gospel of Thomas teaches another christ, it is typical anti-christ literature. That is why.
Also, There is intense misogyny on this board - consider what the word says:
I John 3
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
I John 4
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Also, back to this issue of enlightenment, this sounds eerily familiar to something I've heard before...
Gen. 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Satan was promising eve enlightenment - so are you with your misogynist doctrines and other various ideas... what you call enlightenment, the bible calls STRONG DELUSION:
2 Thess. 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
...and where is the love that Jesus Christ has for us?
I John 3
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
And if the cross of Jesus Christ sounds absurd, Paul already spoke of this:
I Cor.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Regards,
Tim
2 Peter
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
There are no political reasons for the books that are in the new testament - they are coherent cannon and the all communicate the same main ideas, namely: that justification is by Christ alone through faith alone. The gospel of Thomas teaches another christ, it is typical anti-christ literature. That is why.
Also, There is intense misogyny on this board - consider what the word says:
I John 3
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
I John 4
20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.
Also, back to this issue of enlightenment, this sounds eerily familiar to something I've heard before...
Gen. 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Satan was promising eve enlightenment - so are you with your misogynist doctrines and other various ideas... what you call enlightenment, the bible calls STRONG DELUSION:
2 Thess. 2
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
...and where is the love that Jesus Christ has for us?
I John 3
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
And if the cross of Jesus Christ sounds absurd, Paul already spoke of this:
I Cor.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Regards,
Tim
2 Peter
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
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David Quinn
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Tim,
It's not acceptable to spam the forum with religious literature in the manner that you are doing. If you want to engage us in rational discussion about your Christian ideas, that's fine. But if you simply want to shout scripture at people from the rooftops, then you're going to have to do it elsewhere.
Do you understand? You won't be warned again.
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You wrote:
That would be like building your house on a foundation of sand.
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It's not acceptable to spam the forum with religious literature in the manner that you are doing. If you want to engage us in rational discussion about your Christian ideas, that's fine. But if you simply want to shout scripture at people from the rooftops, then you're going to have to do it elsewhere.
Do you understand? You won't be warned again.
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You wrote:
Actually, hardly any emphasis is placed on the Gospel of Thomas. Yes, we recognize that it contains some wisdom, as do parts of the New Testament, but neither Kevin, Dan, or myself depend on a book in any way. Only a fool would hinge the whole of his understanding on a particular book.I used to study your ideas Kevin, David and Dan - you all place a great emphasis on the gospel of Thomas;
That would be like building your house on a foundation of sand.
In reality, it's neither heretical (towards Truth), nor misogynistic. It does, however, conflict with your narrow-minded fundamentalist beliefs.the reason this text isn't found in the Holy Scriptures is because it's heretical gnostic writing, not simply because it is misogynist.
Okay, so what about the following quote:There are no political reasons for the books that are in the new testament - they are coherent cannon and the all communicate the same main ideas, namely: that justification is by Christ alone through faith alone.
Do you agree with it? Do you put it into practice? Are you with your family today, celebrating the birth of Jesus by indulging in the complete opposite of what he taught?"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14: 26
The Gospel of Thomas speaks clearly and directly about the nature of God. That is why Christians hate it and why they rejected it from the offical cannon. It is too pure. The last thing Christians want is to be intelligently guided to an understanding of God. That is not what Christianity is about.The gospel of Thomas teaches another christ, it is typical anti-christ literature. That is why.
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yeshua8787
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The Ten Commandments
David,
Ok, if you insist, I will discuss my point as rationally as a fundamentalist can without the word of God, but first, let me address your concern about "hate" with the scripture:
Compare these two scriptures:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14: 26
And...
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
And...
1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Since God cannot lie, what is meant by this? He would never command us to hate anyone, much less family - the best translation would be to "love less". The disparity of our affections towards our mother and father compared to our love and affections toward our Father in heaven should be great.
People make idols of their loved ones and this hinders the work of God.
I want to be intelligently guided to an understanding of God and I am a Christian. When I was a nihilistic atheist, going to hell with my bits and pieces rubble I picked up from this wise man and that one to build a foundation, the gospel of Thomas made sense to me. Now that Jesus Christ has washed me clean of my sin, I can now see a stark contrast between the "purity" of the gospel of Thomas and the purity of the gospel potrayed in the 26 books of the New Testament.
They are two different systems of thought, and one seeks to counterfeit the other - One is the mind of Christ, one is mind anti-christ, it's that simple. So if you're wondering how the gospel of Thomas didn't make it into the King James along with ten-million other gnostic books at the time, ask the people who made the selections who really understood what the true gospel was to begin with. And the true gospel is that Jesus Christ came to earth, to die and pay the sin debt of mankind, so that we through faith alone in Jesus Christ, would not perish at judgment day at the hands of a holy and just God, but have eternal life.
The gospel of thomas and all the other gnostic texts never speak of these things... I wonder why?
Regards,
Tim
Ok, if you insist, I will discuss my point as rationally as a fundamentalist can without the word of God, but first, let me address your concern about "hate" with the scripture:
Compare these two scriptures:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14: 26
And...
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
And...
1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Since God cannot lie, what is meant by this? He would never command us to hate anyone, much less family - the best translation would be to "love less". The disparity of our affections towards our mother and father compared to our love and affections toward our Father in heaven should be great.
People make idols of their loved ones and this hinders the work of God.
I want to be intelligently guided to an understanding of God and I am a Christian. When I was a nihilistic atheist, going to hell with my bits and pieces rubble I picked up from this wise man and that one to build a foundation, the gospel of Thomas made sense to me. Now that Jesus Christ has washed me clean of my sin, I can now see a stark contrast between the "purity" of the gospel of Thomas and the purity of the gospel potrayed in the 26 books of the New Testament.
They are two different systems of thought, and one seeks to counterfeit the other - One is the mind of Christ, one is mind anti-christ, it's that simple. So if you're wondering how the gospel of Thomas didn't make it into the King James along with ten-million other gnostic books at the time, ask the people who made the selections who really understood what the true gospel was to begin with. And the true gospel is that Jesus Christ came to earth, to die and pay the sin debt of mankind, so that we through faith alone in Jesus Christ, would not perish at judgment day at the hands of a holy and just God, but have eternal life.
The gospel of thomas and all the other gnostic texts never speak of these things... I wonder why?
Regards,
Tim
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Diebert van Rhijn
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- Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:43 pm
Hi Tim,
Once upon a time I was in your position, being very active in a evangelical (or as some would say fundamentalist) form, but I had to let go from the bible as guide in any definite form after a decade of sincere study and questioning (alongside the believing, experiencing, evangelizing). Apart from the logic which couldn't add up the contradictions without continuous leaps in 'faith of the fathers' and that while God was supposed to be also about truth, wisdom and non-deception, I also had other strong reasons to abandon scriptures as authorative sources completely. The main problem I faced was that I found many elements of the gospels in other places, traditions and scriptures. Much of the pure 'wise words' can be found, often literary, in some of the older Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Greek and Egypt traditions. More surprisingly I found more mystical elements like virgin birth, sacrificial lambs, sons of God and miracle works as thematic elements in stories which were really far BC. I couldn't live with C.S. Lewis' weak defence about it being foreshadowing or like others said: 'devil's copycatting in advance'. The truth in the end set me free from the conflict. I had to abondon the lie.
It needs strength and a consuming passion for truth however, and many are drawn initially to Christianity because they cannot bear to stand on their own feet, to be the rebel that questions even the most basic morals that were taught to you. That's why the question has been asked to you if you'd be willing to follow Jesus if it means abandoning safety nets like family, friends and spiritual communities to go for the one big prize - alone.
(PS regarding the 'hate' text, some would argue that in Matthew 10:37 a more watered down version appears: "love more than", but since the text is followed by a reference to 'carrying his cross", it can only have meant rejection and abandonment of 'the world'. Interesting also is the reference to a cross since Jesus wasn't crucified yet. That means he was already carrying it or had carried it... ever thought about the implications of that?)
Once upon a time I was in your position, being very active in a evangelical (or as some would say fundamentalist) form, but I had to let go from the bible as guide in any definite form after a decade of sincere study and questioning (alongside the believing, experiencing, evangelizing). Apart from the logic which couldn't add up the contradictions without continuous leaps in 'faith of the fathers' and that while God was supposed to be also about truth, wisdom and non-deception, I also had other strong reasons to abandon scriptures as authorative sources completely. The main problem I faced was that I found many elements of the gospels in other places, traditions and scriptures. Much of the pure 'wise words' can be found, often literary, in some of the older Jewish, Hindu, Buddhist, Greek and Egypt traditions. More surprisingly I found more mystical elements like virgin birth, sacrificial lambs, sons of God and miracle works as thematic elements in stories which were really far BC. I couldn't live with C.S. Lewis' weak defence about it being foreshadowing or like others said: 'devil's copycatting in advance'. The truth in the end set me free from the conflict. I had to abondon the lie.
It needs strength and a consuming passion for truth however, and many are drawn initially to Christianity because they cannot bear to stand on their own feet, to be the rebel that questions even the most basic morals that were taught to you. That's why the question has been asked to you if you'd be willing to follow Jesus if it means abandoning safety nets like family, friends and spiritual communities to go for the one big prize - alone.
(PS regarding the 'hate' text, some would argue that in Matthew 10:37 a more watered down version appears: "love more than", but since the text is followed by a reference to 'carrying his cross", it can only have meant rejection and abandonment of 'the world'. Interesting also is the reference to a cross since Jesus wasn't crucified yet. That means he was already carrying it or had carried it... ever thought about the implications of that?)
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David Quinn
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Tim,
Good ......
Hold on. You can't go around claiming that the Bible is the word of God and then start changing the meaning of passages whenever it suits you.
The Luke passage literally states "whoever does not hate their mother and father ...." You can't back away from this. God is commanding you to hate them. Literally.
The fact that it clashes with other parts of the Bible indicates that either:
(a) God can't make up his mind and doesn't really know what he wants people to do.
or,
(b) Interlopers have added false passages to the Bible, or otherwise made changes to it.
Either way, how can we trust anything the Bible says?
Perhaps the Luke passage above is indeed the authentic word of God, while the Exodus and Tim passages are fake passages created by interlopers. Have you considered this possibility?
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Ok, if you insist, I will discuss my point as rationally as a fundamentalist can without the word of God,
Good ......
but first, let me address your concern about "hate" with the scripture:
Compare these two scriptures:
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—such a person cannot be my disciple." Luke 14: 26
And...
Exodus 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
And...
1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
Since God cannot lie, what is meant by this? He would never command us to hate anyone, much less family - the best translation would be to "love less".
Hold on. You can't go around claiming that the Bible is the word of God and then start changing the meaning of passages whenever it suits you.
The Luke passage literally states "whoever does not hate their mother and father ...." You can't back away from this. God is commanding you to hate them. Literally.
The fact that it clashes with other parts of the Bible indicates that either:
(a) God can't make up his mind and doesn't really know what he wants people to do.
or,
(b) Interlopers have added false passages to the Bible, or otherwise made changes to it.
Either way, how can we trust anything the Bible says?
Perhaps the Luke passage above is indeed the authentic word of God, while the Exodus and Tim passages are fake passages created by interlopers. Have you considered this possibility?
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Re: The Ten Commandments
.
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It bespeaks of the hatred of truth and goodness, to hold aloft it's sacrifice.
Yes, it was the truth that was killed on the cross.
- - -
I ever so easily mistake Christmas as the celebration of his death. My mistake however, i forget the common interpretations have exonerated so many from guilt!
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The above quote is as near as damn evil as i've come across in recent time. How thoroughly self-serving and unconscionable it is to paralyse the mind by holding to a fixed notion of an indefinable saviour, and the notion that doing so will admonish one of all sin and provide eternal life.yeshua8787 wrote:They are two different systems of thought, and one seeks to counterfeit the other - One is the mind of Christ, one is mind anti-christ, it's that simple. So if you're wondering how the gospel of Thomas didn't make it into the King James along with ten-million other gnostic books at the time, ask the people who made the selections who really understood what the true gospel was to begin with. And the true gospel is that Jesus Christ came to earth, to die and pay the sin debt of mankind, so that we through faith alone in Jesus Christ, would not perish at judgment day at the hands of a holy and just God, but have eternal life.
The gospel of thomas and all the other gnostic texts never speak of these things... I wonder why?
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It bespeaks of the hatred of truth and goodness, to hold aloft it's sacrifice.
Yes, it was the truth that was killed on the cross.
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I ever so easily mistake Christmas as the celebration of his death. My mistake however, i forget the common interpretations have exonerated so many from guilt!
.