Love/Hate

[DivineIntercourse]

But they are still love and hate.

Aren't these two things expressions? It's sorta similar to: if the beauty of a flower could be explained through a bunch of mathematical methods, would you still consider one as being equal to the other? (or doesn't it lose (or gain) something in the translatory process?)

OK. So, what in your mind follows from these in terms of conclusions or questions in relation to interdependency?

For instance, the first thing that comes to my mind is, what might one look for in neuroscience to demonstrate the simple complete idea that one feels "hatred toward a particular person because they have physically hurt someone they loved"?

No one is denying that one couldn't develop hatred for someone that hurt his loved one. The point is that it'd be wrong, whereas love is right. Must you have right with wrong? There should not be an interdependency between the two - though, that does seem to be the case... Usually (to put it lightly)!

The best definition for love that I could come up with was: acceptance + emotional component. On second thought, this doesn't sound good enough because you can still have love without the acceptance part (can you not?): I love people that I don't particularly like (which either means that I don't accept them or something about them, or that I do accept them, but I'm just not aware of it (weird)). Question: is love possible without any emotional involvement? Ex. someone preaching that emotions are bad, but then, at the same time, loving truth - that reminds me of "you can't say there are no absolute truths, because that very statement discredits itself." Another thing: can one love an object or develop an emotional connection to an object? (I say things like: I love this or that, but I don't consider that kind of love a genuine type - for instance, I wouldn't risk my life for... a pizza!)

Why did you reverse the order of the quotes?

Unintentional.

That's because I never intended it to.

My bad.

[Animus]

FYI The recent issue of Discover Presents: The Brain (Winter 2009) has articles on the neuroscience of Love and Fear. As well as, Music, Autism and Genius, Cell Phones and Cancer, Animal Intelligence, Recovered Memories, "Killing Pain with Hypnosis", "How to build a cyborg" and "Why songs stick in your head". Plenty of excelent electron micrograph imagery.

[Dan Rowden]

Have you ever hated anything?

[Dan Rowden]

Love is that which pleases you; hate is that which displeases you;

QED

Examine yourself through that filter.

[Animus]

I have hated many things, perhaps every thing. I loved and hated my ex-girlfriend. I really loved her but she was obsessive and compulsive as well as manic depressive. I wasn't prepared for it so I hated her as well. After she was gone I felt intense withdrawal from her for about a year. There are a lot of things I've loved and hated and things I've loved to hate. It certainly seems like the two aren't mutually exclusive. Plus I have a real hard time with dichotomies in a reality that is complex. Amongst arbitrations mutually exclusive dichotomies are the worst. Consider the nature vs nurture dichotomy. It turns out there is a seamless interplay between the genes and environment. Traumatic experiences can cause a methylation of a specific gene encoding for a chain that leads to dampened stress response. Called epigenetics, some of these alterations to the epigenome are heritable. It may be more apt to say the dichotomy is not mutually exclusive. Between black and white there are many shades of gray.

The masculine/feminine dichotomy
The problem I see here is that there is one human brain. There are some differences in the pareital lobes, frontal lobes, corpus callosum and amygdala between adult men and women. However via neuroplastic change these differences likely arose from practiced behavior. The hippocampi of taxi drivers becomes denser and larger by experience. The hippocampus is involved in navigation. When someone is permanently blinded by damage to their eyes or optic nerves the cells associated with vision in the visual cortex become redifferentiated to serve other tasks. The brain is highly adaptable and people can recover from stroke with only half a brain. There are some differences however these differences are not only minor, cognitively speaking, they can be nullified. The primary differences regard mating habits and differences in the structure of neurochemicals like oxytocin and vasopressin or testosterone and progestrogen. Human brains have the ability to adapt to social demands. Cost-wise it is evolutionarily sound to have a nervous system that can adapt to environmental and social demands independent of predetermined instinct. Women are now found to examine men's packages in public almost as often as men foveate on a woman's equipment. The lines are blurring.

Put to the test properly women perform as well as men on cognitive assessments. Caught in the wild women can be savage beasts and men can be loving fathers and husbands. There is too much fraudulent stereotyping of sexes, especially considering the measurable effect of stereotype threat in fulfilling the stereotype.

To listen to the podcast was frankly, quite disturbing because I do have some respect for yourself Dan and other members of this community. Honestly though, this seems to go against everything else you've said about seeking truth. You did try to focus on culture but also used sweeping generalizations. I think it was the two guests who at one time said "every woman" and "all women" and made a behavioural generalization after.

[DivineIntercourse]

Called epigenetics, some of these alterations to the epigenome are heritable.

And some are mutations I suppose? If we think about it, even those mutations are heritable.

Between black and white there are many shades of gray.

I've loved to hate.

It's much easier to deal with the black/white -- once you've grasped that, you can go into the different shades of gray...

Have you ever hated anything?

Enough to destroy?

[DivineIntercourse]

When I think of hatred, I think of some punk pulling out a gun and killing a classmate for making him look bad. When I think of love, I think of someone giving up their life for a loved one. Now, with that said, I believe that one is good and the other is not. I believe that we can have the good and not the bad. Is that clear enough?

[Dan Rowden]

Sure, it's always been clear; it's just wrong, that's all.

[DivineIntercourse]

Is it only because of the emotional aspect to it that bothers you? Or... I wonder if animals feel emotions? Emotions are an evolved trait... I'm sure there's a good reason for it. Dan, I read some of your poetry in the past... Hmm... Mind explaining some of that?

[I'm toasty - lol]

OK... Emotions... blahblahblah... However... can emotions not be used intelligently?

You know what? I have no idea what I'm talking about! Why the *bleep* is love hate wrong and why the hell can there be no love without hate? Why don't you answer any pf my original questions? I recall that you asked me a question, which I answered (guess I failed, huh?), and then... You never responded!

You're talking about emotional suppression here! WTF's that? I'm 100% sure that you (Dan) get emotional. I'm gonna share a little secret with you: sometime over a week ago, I have a good cry... And it was the craziest thing, because I haven't cried for years and years... Anyway, after the cry (more like self-pity session), I felt so alive, so light, so free... It was awesome. What's too bad about this is that I can't just make myself cry (I wouldn't want to), but ...I really wish I could!

Dan, one more thing, I think that denying your emotions is like... (****)... like... denying yourself something which is part of you (hard wired) without it you just won't function at your full potential.

Waitaminute... love/hate is about emotions isn't it... you would happen to view love/hate in the sense that you'd view good/bad, would you? I mean, maybe from some philobabblinghigherupposition you might say that good/bad don't exist, so maybe love/hate don't exist either AND that's what you mean!?

Dude, are you for real? *passes joint*

Tell me more PLEASZE!!!

[Dan Rowden]

Is it only because of the emotional aspect to it that bothers you?

It's the delusional aspect that bothers me.

Or... I wonder if animals feel emotions?

No, they don't. Or, at least, not the kind we experience. The kind of emotions I'm talking about are a consequence of self-referential consciousness.

Emotions are an evolved trait...

So is stupidity, violence, jealousy etc.

I'm sure there's a good reason for it.

Is there a good reason for stupidity?

Dan, I read some of your poetry in the past... Hmm... Mind explaining some of that?

What's to explain. Romantic love is a low level ideal, but an ideal nonetheless. Some people are yet at the level where any idealism is better than nothing.

OK... Emotions... blahblahblah... However... can emotions not be used intelligently?

No.

You know what? I have no idea what I'm talking about!

You don't say.

Why the *bleep* is love hate wrong and why the hell can there be no love without hate?

Such things are delusional because they arise specifically from the ego, which is itself delusion. It's not complicated. Why does one "love" something?

Why don't you answer any pf my original questions?

They probably weren't worth answering.

I recall that you asked me a question, which I answered (guess I failed, huh?), and then... You never responded!

Shit happens.

You're talking about emotional suppression here! WTF's that?

I'm not talking about suppression of anything, other than perhaps stupidity. Emotions cease to arise if ego is absent.

I'm 100% sure that you (Dan) get emotional.

I'm a little teary now, actually. Though, that could be the onions I just diced.

I'm gonna share a little secret with you: sometime over a week ago, I have a good cry... And it was the craziest thing, because I haven't cried for years and years... Anyway, after the cry (more like self-pity session), I felt so alive, so light, so free... It was awesome. What's too bad about this is that I can't just make myself cry (I wouldn't want to), but ...I really wish I could!

Why do you need to cry? What is it that expresses such a need?

Dan, one more thing, I think that denying your emotions is like... (****)... like... denying yourself something which is part of you (hard wired) without it you just won't function at your full potential.

Emotions are not hard wired. And no-one is talking about denial. Denial is a river in Egypt. I'm talking about understanding the source of emotion.

Waitaminute... love/hate is about emotions isn't it... you would happen to view love/hate in the sense that you'd view good/bad, would you?

More or less, but not quite as explicitly as that.

I mean, maybe from some philobabblinghigherupposition you might say that good/bad don't exist, so maybe love/hate don't exist either AND that's what you mean!?

Good/bad exist as subjective judgements. Emotions arise out of the workings of the ego. Again, ask yourself what it is that loves or hates.

Dude, are you for real?

No, I'm an illusion. Or maybe an allusion.

[DivineIntercourse]

That's interesting... You don't reply when I'm sober, but you do reply when I can't care less about what or how I post. Why is that? I had 3 crest beers (10%alc.), ever had? - One of the cheapest beers you can get around here, but they do the trick quite nicely. My plan is to get as screwed up as possible by any means until the New Year hits - from then on, my life will change drastically: I plan to give up all my bad habits, eat healthy, lift weights, study a variety of subjects (this includes getting my GED -- high school equivalence), maybe even meditating (I don't really care too much for the traditional kind of meditation, but I have heard that it increases brain matter... Who knows, maybe)... What else... Basically, my whole way of thinking will change (ex. I'm won't be wasting my time on this site anymore:p;)). After a year or so of intensive studying, etc... I should be ready for college... Oh... and... if the worst happens, then I'll start taking my meds again, and carry on with the plan. Although, I'm pretty sure that I won't need the meds, but as you've stated before: "shit happens." Another part of the plan is to have you ban me right before the NY - in essence, it'll be like leaving my old self behind. Eventually, when I do come back (if I find the time), everything from the content to my writing style will be improved. I can imagine it, it'll be great. But then again, if you don't hear from me, just know that everything's going according to plan. If I do come back (like a month into 09), then I'm confident that you'll know the significance of that <- in that case, please ban me immediately! There are going to be a lot of changes. One change which I think will have a huge impact on my thinking will be to set my alarm clock and make it wake me up everyday at sunrise, then I'll hit the gym, and afterwards get busy studying (maybe while listening to some classical music). I also plan on taking those supplements/herbs that have what appear to be conclusive research backing them up for being a brain function enhancer (ginkgo, and so on - ever used? Eh, you probably don't believe in it). If it's a scam, even though it's been used for thousands of years, I'll at least have some benefit from the placebo... That reminds me, I'm going to pretend like I'm a genius, etc (same reason). I see all of this working very well. It's idiot proof. I have to believe in the impossible. This is good. Useful delusion as I like to call it. Anyway... Hmmm... I'm gonna go to sleep now... I'll post my response to you reply tomorrow, that is, unless your just yanking my chain and don't really care about a response, but then, why post or make such useless posts? Seriously. Why? I think your a good guy, nonetheless. Though, there are things about this place which puzzle me. I mean, the things you post don't exactly fit together with other things that you've posted (don't ask). Oh well... that's probably because I've sorta put the pussy on a pedestal (hope you don't mind the analogy, it's taken from the movie: "the 40yr old virgin" - lol). Human, all too human. But then again, this place has taught me a thing or two, sorta opened my eyes to a whole new world (if you will)... I have gratitude and respect... I once imagined this: your bio's, this place, all make-believe, a scam, etc... Call it a wild imagination. It's just that it's hard to believe sometimes that this exists, and... I don't know, it's kinda too good to be true, etc... This may not make sense, but... It opens up all these different new fascinating parts of my brain, however, once I'm done exploring my mind, it's like it goes away... And I can't help but think that it's been a waste of time (not unlike a drug experience). You know? Instead, I feel like I should have put my time into something more worthwhile such as the things that I've been brought up on like studying, and being social, and emotional connections, etc... I have learned a lot (please I'm just not giving it enough credit), but it seems at times like this experience (these experiences that I'm referring to and thinking about) is largely dwarfed by the reality that I've been raised in. It seems like my attempts are nothing compared to what I already know. I'm sure that all this has some kind of merit... I don't know. I'm drunk. Whatever. I need to go now. Nite-nite :)

I hope you don't take anything the wrong way. I meant no offense. If any of it seems offensive then please blame the ignorance, alcohol, or whatever... OK, now I really don't know what I'm trying to say. Anyway, thanks for everything... !

Peace out!:)

[Leyla Shen]

In cases of Prefrontal Cortical damage, say for example the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, or the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, one may be diagnosed as Psychopathic or Antisocial Personality Disorder. Infact most convicted murderers have been found to have PFC damage of some sort. Characteristic of APD/Psychopathy/Sociopathy they lack empathic abilities and genuine love for another individual, yet they are prone to animosity and violence. It implies to me there is no interdependancy of the actual neurological basis of Love/Hate. But in psychoanalytic terms they seem to be mutually exclusive and interdependant. I don't think they are in light of neuroscience.

OK. I think I’d need to look at something more concrete before I (or anyone, really) could offer anything substantial in this line of enquiry. Do you have any specific information on the case studies and research criteria?

Given the nature of the question at hand, are not those minority convicted murderers who didn’t prove to have PFC damage (dysfunction?—is there a useful difference?) of some sort equally key to what we might reasonably infer from the evidence?

[Shahrazad]

DI,

That's interesting... You don't reply when I'm sober, but you do reply when I can't care less about what or how I post. Why is that?

Lest you read too much into that, keep in mind that most (or all) of your bannings have been after a drunk post.

My plan is to get as screwed up as possible by any means until the New Year hits - from then on, my life will change drastically: I plan to give up all my bad habits, eat healthy, lift weights, yadda, yadda, yadda ....

Awesome.

Basically, my whole way of thinking will change (ex. I'm won't be wasting my time on this site anymore:p;)).

Haha. Hanging out here is a fruitful way of wasting time.

After a year or so of intensive studying, etc... I should be ready for college... Oh... and... if the worst happens, then I'll start taking my meds again, and carry on with the plan. Although, I'm pretty sure that I won't need the meds, but as you've stated before: "shit happens."

Nice plan, I wish you well.

Another part of the plan is to have you ban me right before the NY - in essence, it'll be like leaving my old self behind.

Too bad I won't see those good-bye posts. I always leave 2 days before the new year.

Eventually, when I do come back (if I find the time), everything from the content to my writing style will be improved. I can imagine it, it'll be great.

I believe you. You make good posts when you're neither drunk nor having a nervous breakdown.

I also plan on taking those supplements/herbs that have what appear to be conclusive research backing them up for being a brain function enhancer (ginkgo, and so on - ever used? Eh, you probably don't believe in it).

I used them 10 or 12 years ago, and was quite happy with the results. If they were cheaper, I'd still be taking them.

I think your a good guy, nonetheless.

Don't doubt it.

Though, there are things about this place which puzzle me. I mean, the things you post don't exactly fit together with other things that you've posted (don't ask). Oh well... that's probably because I've sorta put the pussy on a pedestal (hope you don't mind the analogy, it's taken from the movie: "the 40yr old virgin" - lol). Human, all too human.

Dan is much more human than you imagine.

How do you find the energy to write such long posts? I can't do it.

[Shahrazad]

My take on love.

Love is very addictive, like a drug. At first, you just want/need a little bit of it, but as time elapses, that little bit doesn't satisfy you any more; you have become habituated to it. Then you want more, and go for more. But it doesn't matter how much love you get; if you're a love addict, it's never going to be enough.

For me, there's no feeling in the world as being high with love. And it's more than a psychological addiction -- our brains produce neurotransmitters and other chemicals like oxytocin and you get habituated to your dosage. But, just as with all highs, a low follows. The higher the peak, the longer the fall, and the greater the speed you acquire when you finally hit the concrete floor.

It just isn't worth the price you pay.

Just like a recovered alcoholic, a love addict can go years without love, but once he tastes a little sip of it, he’s in deep shit. Love is 100% irrational.

[guest_of_logic]

Sher, how do you define the type of love that you're talking about?

[Shahrazad]

Basically I'm talking about romantic love, as that is the only type of love that I deem highly addictive. Other people may have different experiences, however.

[DivineIntercourse]

Sher, how do you define the type of love that you're talking about?

I define it as the realistic as opposed to idealistic type.

Love is very addictive, like a drug. At first, you just want/need a little bit of it, but as time elapses, that little bit doesn't satisfy you any more; you have become habituated to it. Then you want more, and go for more. But it doesn't matter how much love you get; if you're a love addict, it's never going to be enough.

Personally, I've only been in love once (well, that's not entirely true, but there was only one girl that was much more special to me - I seriously thought of her as my soul-mate). It's very different from loving say a parent (thank god!) or from loving a sport's team, etc... Now, with that said, let's carry on. For argument's sake let's distinguish how love is different from a drug: 1) it occurs naturally in that we aren't using external sources, but rather going with the flow and letting nature take it's course. I have a good example for this: our bodies naturally need 2 categorical types of vitamins: a) the essentials (ones' we need from an external source), and b) the nonessentials (or whatever it's called - ones' that the body manufactures on its own). To me, drugs (as you've probably guessed) are like the essential kinds of vitamins, and this poses a new level of danger, because as with anything (water, etc) too much is damaging and sometimes lethal. Love on the other hand, is like the other type of nutrients, in that, if our bodies are working in perfect order, these vitamins will not be overly manufactured making an overdoes or that "hitting rock-bottom feeling" virtually impossible.

So, I think we now need to make a distinction between healthy love and unhealthy love - I would propose (heh) that the unhealthy love leaves a person drained, while the healthy kind leaves a person feeling healthy and vibrant. What do you think of this (so far)?

Love is 100% irrational.

In another way, love is 100% rational in the sense that everything that happens in our lives is 100% logical. In that sense, as Dan would like to say, stupidity is 100% logical - It happens for logical reasons as with everything else in this world. The real point here is to try and understand it rationally. Stating that emotions are bad, without understanding why they're bad is bad in itself. The same can be true for the opposite view (oops) - though, I'd like to think of myself as being in between the two polarities (hee-hee).

How do you find the energy to write such long posts? I can't do it.

That's probably because you have a life! For the time being, I'll stay a sad-sack up until the beginning of 2009... !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shahrazad]

DI,

That's probably because you have a life!

I do have a real life, but I am now trying to get my cyber life back. Real life is overrated.

Funny, you and I are moving in opposite directions. Right now we are close to the point of intersection.

[DivineIntercourse]

;)

I think that's because of the age difference.

[Shahrazad]

Yeah, it must be. When you're on your way there, I'm on my way back -- for the fourth time.

[DivineIntercourse]

Why do you go back and forth like that?

(I need to go for a walk, clear my head)

It's night here, so... Goodnight!:)

[Shahrazad]

Why do you go back and forth like that?

You will too. It's the natural cycle of life. You live a long time, and you play several roles. They actually seem like several lives.

[Shahrazad]

DI,

So, I think we now need to make a distinction between healthy love and unhealthy love - I would propose (heh) that the unhealthy love leaves a person drained, while the healthy kind leaves a person feeling healthy and vibrant. What do you think of this (so far)?

How are you left feeling when your "healthy love" is taken away from you? Or has it never happened to you?

[DivineIntercourse]

Isn't there a constant? Is this the true self? I know what you mean, I just mean that there is something recognizable in all the selves - I like to think of this as a true self. Or perhaps that's only an illusion which I've developed in case I lose myself... Who knows.

That reminds me of something: in the past, before the symptoms, I could portray many different sides of myself. For instance, I'd act one way to one group of friends, and in another way to their parents. It seemed like a perfectly natural thing to do (Btw, there's some paranoia involved in this as well). Well, when I started doing drugs and experiencing weird side effects, I started acting weird, I'd be one personality one day and the next, a different one. This led to a lot of trouble, because it makes sense to think that they didn't like me very much after this (I'm not really sure why). Also, around that time, I started becoming really paranoid -- the culprit of this I'm sure was the weed. I was always paranoid when I was high because I felt like everyone knew that I was high, initially this was no problem in front of my friends. But then something happened (they changed), the memories are fuzzy and scattered here, but I'd notice things like: when we'd all get high, they wouldn't appear so, rather their eyes were white (they told me that it was the Visine (eye drops) that we sometimes used before we parted ways to got home and greet our parents. Anyway, maybe this is the paranoia talking, but at the time, I started formulating ideas which involved them trying to damage my brain (I thought that they were feeding me drugs while not taking any themselves), and this would explain all these psychological symptoms that I started experiencing. It makes sense, but it made more sense at the time. I mean, these weren't old friends which I knew all my life, these were different people which were involved in the drug scene, so... I'm not really sure what to think. I feel that they played a role in my becoming messed up like this. Anyway, I wrote all this to clarify some points for myself - one being: You know how on these forums people talk about how they can't show their true selves to others (I think the sages mostly say this), because they fear persecution. Well, is it not possible that because I was hanging out with people below my normal standard, they got jealous and wanted to ruin my life? For instance, maybe when I started becoming all these different people in front of them, is it not possible that they then realized that I had something which they didn't and that's why they wanted to ruin me? It makes sense. It's all a matter of putting all the pieces together - for one, I was warned multiple times about people like this in my life (my parents didn't like these new friends). I know that I sound paranoid right now, but it doesn't mean that this isn't true! I had something back then which I didn't understand the value of... Now, that it's gone, I am saddened. Anyway, what do you think of all this. Btw, please don't feel like your only going to indulge my delusions, because for all you know, I am 100% correct.

[DivineIntercourse]

How are you left feeling when your "healthy love" is taken away from you? Or has it never happened to you?

I stopped seeing the girl that I really cared for, because I had started using drugs and things were becoming hectic (to say the least), I didn't want to expose her to this new side of me (I almost let it slip). So, I basically let her go. I had hoped that once I got my life together again, I'd be able to rekindle something. Unfortunately, this is still under construction (if you know what I mean), and last I heard (our parents are old friends), she met someone else. Oh well, I feel like she was too good for me, she deserved better (this is healthy love).