Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

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Boyan
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Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Boyan »

With clear reasoning Russell explains the objections he has towards Christian faith. He shows the unsoundness of traditional arguments for the existence of god as well as for the reasons for believing in it, and goes on to reveal the stupidity and cruelty of some aspects of Christian morality as well as acts of Christ, as portrayed by the gospels.

He further states his opinion on what fuels the religious belief, and gives many reasons on why it should be dismissed.
Crystal clear, honest rationality throughout this lecture seems to effortlessly kick all the arguments out of the hands of Christians and their theologians.
You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs... The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by daybrown »

Boyan wrote:With clear reasoning Russell explains the objections he has towards Christian faith. He shows the unsoundness of traditional arguments for the existence of god as well as for the reasons for believing in it, and goes on to reveal the stupidity and cruelty of some aspects of Christian morality as well as acts of Christ, as portrayed by the gospels.

He further states his opinion on what fuels the religious belief, and gives many reasons on why it should be dismissed.
Crystal clear, honest rationality throughout this lecture seems to effortlessly kick all the arguments out of the hands of Christians and their theologians.
You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs... The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men.
http://users.drew.edu/~jlenz/whynot.html
So far, so good. But as Communism shows, if you do not provide a divine figure, they will make do with a man. As we see in North Korea. Athiesm is not a solution.

The history is obscure, but when sheeple worship a prime Goddess, the problems he cites disappear. The reason is simple when you consider hominid psychology. The kind of alpha male demagogue causing the trouble he refers to have an impossible task trying to rile up a mob, movement, or army trying to claim that he speaks in Her name.

Whether you believe such a prime Goddess exists is not the point. For your own safety, act as if you do, promote Her worship, and the sheeple will respond by following the kind of non-violent leadship such a cosmology has always produced.
Goddess made sex for company.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

boyan, quoting Russell, wrote:You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs...
The keyword being "dogmatic." Russell here fails to establish cause and effect, as many intellectuals often do. The real truth may very well be that historically, when people slip into a dogmatic treatment, understanding, and practice of a living faith, the world around them, for which they are responsible, tends to slip into a worsening state of affairs.
boyan, quoting Russell again, wrote:The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men.
No. Russell's whole conception of God derives from his limited study of history. Mankind's conception of God is an evolving thing, and has evolved along with mankind, from the earliest humans revering thunderstorms wherever they were, and before despots arose either in the Orient and Occident. And a truer conception of God, freed from dogmatism and tradition, is the worthiest of conceptions among men free or otherwise.

Russell is arguably the last of the classical intellectuals, his work on mathematics with Whitehead preceding the Twentieth Century's greatest mathematical developments. Having lived through two world Wars, he is nonetheless a Victorian, and one pictures him in a gentlemen's club reclining in an enormous wing-back chair, clutching a pipe belore a roaring fire, and plegmatically saying to the empty chair next to him, "....So how long have you been gone now, Pendleton...?"

One would do better to read Rudolf Steiner for a more fearless anthroposphical analysis of the spiritual nature of man.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Carl G »

Lol, daybrown continues to promote Goddess worship on a Forum that champions masculinity.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by sue hindmarsh »

Daybrown's advise to believe in the existence of a "prime Goddess" "for your own safety" has for a long, long time been adopted by most of the world's population. So he must be pleased about that. But his soothsaying hasn't turned out to be much chop. His predicted "sheeple will respond by following the...non-violent leadship" hasn't come true - and it has been thousands of years that all the sheeple have been enslaved to their mistress. You'd think that such devotion would warrant at least a weekend off from toil and trouble - but obviously not!

...the kind of non-violent leadship such a cosmology has always produced.
That must have been in a far away galaxy that time has forgot...!?
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Laird »

Thanks for that Boyan. I've heard of this essay before but have never got around to reading it. He covers a lot of ground and pretty flawlessly too. I have two minor criticisms. The first is that he doesn't at any point admit that regardless of arguments one way or the other, the possibility of a God or something like it remains. As you might know from reading the "How to PROVE GOD EXISTS?" thread, I don't believe that the traditional conception of God is tenable - and my second criticism is that it would have been nice to have seen him refute the viability of the traditional characteristics of God too although I suppose that he had limited time/space - but as you might also know from reading that thread, I think that something more workable can be fashioned out of the traditional conception of God.

I am grateful to Russell for pointing out the flaws in Jesus' actions - e.g. casting demons into pigs and withering an innocent fig tree - which I had not carefully considered before. The teachings of hell are likewise untenable - this is not a place that would exist given an omnibenevolent and ominpotent God, but then, how much of what we see in the world would: as Russell points out, are the KKK and fascism the best that God's omnipotent benevolence can manage?

I've at times considered writing something similar to this essay but I'll give up on that idle goal now that I've read this excellent piece of writing which I can't really hope to improve upon.

By the way: bring on the prime Goddess! Even God deserves a bit of hanky panky every now and then.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Tomas »

Carl G wrote:Lol, daybrown continues to promote Goddess worship on a Forum that champions masculinity.

You know the deal.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by daybrown »

The only case I know of where the followers of a great Goddess were violent social predators is the Thuggee of Kali. but- if you actually look into it. Which Rushby did in "The Chidlren of Kali", you find out that the thugs were impersonatingpilgrims headed to a Kali festival. They were, in effect, trading on the perception of the devotees of Kali as being good people.

This is entirely consistent with the words of Saint Ramprasad in his hymns to Kali. Force is a crude tool, and there's no need for it other than dealing with violent social predators. Another instructive case is Athena, the armed protectress of Athens. But the Athenians didnt go to war in Her name, but for reasonably persuasive political and economic priorities. There was no attempt to impose the worship of Kali or Athena on other peoples.

Then too, we have the example of Demeter at the Eleusinian Mysteries. Here, it was the psychotropic sacred potion, Kykeion that did the persuading, not threats of violence. The altered states of consciousness that resulted were completely familiar to Saint Ramprasad, who extolled their use in tantric sexuality.

In many areas, Christianity looks like the cult of the Virgin Mary. And again, we are hard put to find examples where Her name was used to justify the use of force. In all these cases, its the inability of the alpha males, who are the overwhelming cause of the violence we know of, to use the concept of a goddess to justify their aggression.

If someone has an example of the contrary case, I'd be grateful of the education. Surely in all the varity of all the goddesses and cultures which have worshiped them, there must be some. But in any case, the generally accepted concept of the divine by sheeple follows the nature of the power structure. And now we see women taking over. So, again, whether we like it or not, they will find a concept of the divine that is more consistent with their own instincts, just as the power structures in history we know of dominated by alpha males did.

Its not as if my promulgation of the cosmology here, or anywhere else, will have any signicant effect. I'm just writing about what is already going on in the minds of rapidly increasing numbers of young women. Dont argue with me, argue with them. They are already making more money than young men. And that means more power.
Goddess made sex for company.
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sue hindmarsh
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by sue hindmarsh »

Russell, in his lecture on "Why I Am Not A Christian" showed that he'd had a couple of insights into why people got hooked on Christianity and other religions.

He wrote:
What really moves people to believe in God is not any intellectual argument at all. Most people believe in God because they have been taught from early infancy to do it, and that is the main reason.
And:
Then I think that the next most powerful reason is the wish for safety, a sort of feeling that there is a big brother who will look after you. That plays a very profound part in influencing people's desire for a belief in God.
What he neglected to do was look closely at his own psychological reasons for his belief that, “A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage”. If he had, he would have had to conclude that he too was subject to the same emotionalism as Christians, for his belief, like the Christian’s, wasn't built upon a reasoned understanding of reality. It wasn’t even built upon any deeper understanding of human nature. He just liked to imagine that humans had an innate ability to act fair, kind and thoughtful toward one another – and that once religion had been eradicated from society, those characteristics would reach their full potential. But all that happen was that his belief, based as it was on ignorance, created just another religious sect worshiping hollow sentiments and fallacies.
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Carl G
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Carl G »

I am a great bovine who recites history from the paper record of victors and poets (though masked be the intentions and origins of the actual perpetrators). I am driven by my predisposition to love and cherish the ideals of woman, I am historionic, I am a femininny. I ornamentate my copulational readings with summations reflecting my roots in the Ozarks, among the hooved and fowl that will survive the coming breakpoint knowns as Shit Hits The Fan.

It is instructive to view me as a Turing machince randomly singing of Kalimari, She the Holy Mary Squid, embodiment of Ocean. I am software broadcasting for The Broad, casting pearls upon the urinated. My soulless epigrams churn forth advocating psychotropic pleasure and political priority, as they are caused to do; my enamoration triggered, I publish. Kucha on the Dung Road is where my ancestors are from. This is my Crusade.

I have dreamed the magistry of the Goddess in my mind, why then should I not proclaim Her. I have tasted the daughter of the Goddess in my Chevy, why then should I not pursue Her. I have dabbled in the sacred heroin, why then should I not make Her my Heroine. Guys just fight and are hairy. She is Divine.

The history of guys is pathetic, really. I was beat up when I was a kid and my dad wasn't a nice guy. Africa was just like that, too. Out on the plains where gibbons became hominid, the wandering tribes were homicidal, except in rare cases when they realized how much better it would be to worship my mom. I mean, become enslaved to women.

It is great to read so much out there that corresponds with the way I think. It makes a Turing very happy to get such ego reinforcement for the female-as-savior idea. Now if only others would come around to see it this way. Maybe people will wake up yet, and who knows, Armageddon may be avoided. Thankfully the modern woman is taking over many positions traditionally occupied by the ralpha male. I say amen, this boy is ready to do some serious boot licking, I'm glad I lived this long. Deep down I think everyone wants to worship women. Lord knows they deserve it.

Understand this is only my pomegranate of the cosmology now coming to fruition. In the long run agriculture is the answer. No matter what happens a garden and root cellar will see you through. Women are more adept at language, therefore more apt to hire Mexican 'wetbacks' to harvest the crops. Is is any wonder women farmers make more money than the men?
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Boyan
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Boyan »

brokenhead wrote:
boyan, quoting Russell, wrote:You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs...
The keyword being "dogmatic." Russell here fails to establish cause and effect, as many intellectuals often do. The real truth may very well be that historically, when people slip into a dogmatic treatment, understanding, and practice of a living faith, the world around them, for which they are responsible, tends to slip into a worsening state of affairs.
Isn't that what he said basically?


boyan, quoting Russell again, wrote:The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men.
No. Russell's whole conception of God derives from his limited study of history. Mankind's conception of God is an evolving thing, and has evolved along with mankind, from the earliest humans revering thunderstorms wherever they were, and before despots arose either in the Orient and Occident. And a truer conception of God, freed from dogmatism and tradition, is the worthiest of conceptions among men free or otherwise.
He was most certainly referring primarily to the monotheistic God, not the spontaneously arising polytheism that originates as an explanation for natural phenomena and such. And I very much doubt his understanding of history was limited. I am interested to see an explanation of your last claim, in any case.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

boyan wrote:
brokenhead wrote:
boyan, quoting Russell wrote:You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs...
The keyword being "dogmatic." Russell here fails to establish cause and effect, as many intellectuals often do. The real truth may very well be that historically, when people slip into a dogmatic treatment, understanding, and practice of a living faith, the world around them, for which they are responsible, tends to slip into a worsening state of affairs.
Isn't that what he said basically?
I may not have voiced my disagreement properly. First, I have not read the entire argument, but from this quote, he is failing to make the distinction between a true, living religion and a dead one based on empty rites and tradition. "...the more intense has been the religion of any period..." This lumps all religion together. This is clearly seeing it from the outside. It would be like someone criticizing the way you have decorated the inside of your house when he has only seen the outside. He is not saying, basically, that a living religion can embolden and strengthen people to address the violence and inequity in the world. This is equating Christ's teaching with the Inquisition, or with the Church's silence during the Holocaust.
boyan wrote:And I very much doubt his understanding of history was limited.
See this quote from his essay:
Russell, in [i]Why I Am Not a Christian[/i], wrote:Belief in eternal hell-fire was an essential item of Christian belief until pretty recent times.
Christ never taught the concept of hell. The idea predated Christianity and stems from Zoroastrian rites which included spectacles of large bonfires and ceremonies based on fire and immolation. Russell demonstrates a 1927 knowledge of history, and from this quote alone, I suspect its depth.
Russell, in [i]Why I Am Not a Christian[/i], wrote:Therefore they [the Catholic Church] laid it down that the existence of God can be proved by the unaided reason and they had to set up what they considered were arguments to prove it.
He refutes the Church here. The Church and Christ's teachings are not the same.
Russell, in [i]Why I Am Not a Christian[/i], wrote:Historically it is quite doubtful whether Christ ever existed at all, and if He did we do not know anything about him
This asserton he does not back up. Yet he goes on to argue Christ's supposed character flaws based on Gospels, none of which were written during Christ's lifetime. Again, his view is prejudiced, his history flawed at best and unsubstantiated in any case.

The entire quote is as follows:
That is the idea -- that we should all be wicked if we did not hold to the Christian religion. It seems to me that the people who have held to it have been for the most part extremely wicked. You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs. In the so-called ages of faith, when men really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness, there was the Inquisition, with all its tortures; there were millions of unfortunate women burned as witches; and there was every kind of cruelty practiced upon all sorts of people in the name of religion.
Again, he fails to distinguish between the acts of the Church and the faith of ordinary men and women. This is sheer ignorance, or simple prejudice; the acts of the Church are in accordance with the actions of any political power, including propagandizing, justification of brutality, and execution of the opposition. This demonstrates a lack of adherence to Christ's teachings, does it not?
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

Perhaps it would be as well, first of all, to try to make out what one means by the word Christian. It is used these days in a very loose sense by a great many people. Some people mean no more by it than a person who attempts to live a good life. In that sense I suppose there would be Christians in all sects and creeds; but I do not think that that is the proper sense of the word, if only because it would imply that all the people who are not Christians -- all the Buddhists, Confucians, Mohammedans, and so on -- are not trying to live a good life.
This reasoning is patently flawed. Look at it closely. Some people mean by Christian a person who attempts to lead a good life. Russell says that this is not a proper sense of the word because it implies Buddhists, Confucians, etc... are not trying to live a good life. It does no such thing. Rather, it does the opposite. It grants that a member of any other religion who does lead a good life is also a Christian.
In those days [of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas], if a man said that he was a Christian it was known what he meant. You accepted a whole collection of creeds which were set out with great precision, and every single syllable of those creeds you believed with the whole strength of your convictions.
This is an assertion that is not substantiated. What we have in writing from those times are things by and through the Church. Russell has no way of knowing what men of that age believed. We may, for example, suppose that men of that age professed to agree wholeheartedly with Church doctrine -again, not equivalent to Christ's teachings - so that the Church would not kill them and take their possessions.
But for the successful efforts of unbelievers in the past, I could not take so elastic a definition of Christianity as that. As I said before, in olden days it had a much more full-blooded sense. For instance, it included he belief in hell. Belief in eternal hell-fire was an essential item of Christian belief until pretty recent times.
See my comment above about the influence of Zoroastrianism on early Christianity.
There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.
It can be suggested that to conclude there could not have been a First [causeless] Cause also demonstrates poverty of imagination.
In short, this whole argument about natural law no longer has anything like the strength that it used to have. I am traveling on in time in my review of the arguments. The arguments that are used for the existence of God change their character as time goes on. They were at first hard intellectual arguments embodying certain quite definite fallacies. As we come to modern times they become less respectable intellectually and more and more affected by a kind of moralizing vagueness.
This essay was delivered in 1927. He is summarizing how the Natural Law Arguments of the Newtonian era has been superseded by General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics (which was so new at the time, it was not even called that [QM] - Russell had to describe it rather than refer to it.) His point was that scientific advancements nullify or at least trivialize Natural Law Arguments. I would point to the latter part of the 20th Century, when many physicists published popular works that show the idea of Laws of Nature is not dead.
Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?
He shows an astonishing ignorance of evolutionary processes. Again, consider this essay in its historical perspective: the Allies went on to win, and the Klan is being rooted out as we speak.
The point I am concerned with is that, if you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, then you are in this situation: Is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for God himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that God is good.
This "if - then" statement is crucial to Russell's argument. Yet he does not prove or support it in any way.
You could, of course, if you liked, say that there was a superior deity who gave orders to the God that made this world, or could take up the line that some of the gnostics took up -- a line which I often thought was a very plausible one -- that as a matter of fact this world that we know was made by the devil at a moment when God was not looking. There is a good deal to be said for that, and I am not concerned to refute it.
Russell here hits upon - unintentionally, I think - the notion of a Creator who is not the First Cause.
Then there is another point which I consider excellent. You will remember that Christ said, "Judge not lest ye be judged." That principle I do not think you would find was popular in the law courts of Christian countries. I have known in my time quite a number of judges who were very earnest Christians, and none of them felt that they were acting contrary to Christian principles in what they did.
Russell fails to grasp the essential point of justice in this argument. Justice is an act of the many; mercy the act of the individual. Christ intended us as individuals not to judge other individuals, he in no sense said that collective justice should not take place. In fact, he said, "What ye shall bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven."
The early Christians did really believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In that respect, clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and He was certainly not superlatively wise.
Here Russell plainly says that the actions of other people prove that Christ was not wise. This is not only illogical, it is at best deliberately ignorant.
Then you come to moral questions. There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence.
Nowhere, in any version of the New Testament, does Christ say there is a hell. This assertion of Russell's almost leads me to believe that he had not read the NT. In fact, in this essay, he quotes the NT without citing specific chapter and verse.
You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.
Here Russell correctly criticizes organized religion.
A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.
Yes, one should not revive the works of ignorant men. It is not clear from his essay whether he places Christ in that category, but it is clear that he tries to take Christ down a peg or two.

It is this that I find intellectually repellent.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Laird »

brokenhead wrote:Nowhere, in any version of the New Testament, does Christ say there is a hell. This assertion of Russell's almost leads me to believe that he had not read the NT. In fact, in this essay, he quotes the NT without citing specific chapter and verse.
OK, you want C&V? Here are a few for you then. All of these are from the "New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures" - i.e. the Jehovah's Witness translation which never uses the word "hell" but instead uses the original (Greek, as far as I'm aware) Sheol or Gehenna - Gehenna being, as far as I understand it, the perpetually burning garbage dump just outside of Jerusalem and therefore a metaphor for hell:

Matthew 5:22 "... whereas whoever says, 'You despicable fool!' will be liable to the fiery Gehenna".

Matthew 5:29-30
"If, now, that right eye of yours is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost to you than for your whole body to be pitched into Gehenna. Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut if off and throw it away from you. For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost than for your whole body to land in Gehenna."

Matthew 10:28 "And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna."

Matthew 18:8 "If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut if off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire." [note: everlasting fire --Laird]

Matthew 18:9
"Also, if your eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter one-eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Gehenna."

Matthew 23:33 "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Gehenna?"

Mark 9:43 "And if ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go off into Gehenna, into the fire that cannot be put out."

Mark 9:44 [this verse is excluded from my translation but at biblegateway.com the New International Version notes the following:] Some manuscripts out, 44 where / " 'their worm does not die, / and the fire is not quenched.' [this is apparently where Russell got one of his quotes from --Laird]

There's also Jesus' story of the rich man existing in torments. See Luke 16:19-31. I'll quote the most relevant verse:
Luke 16:24 "So he called and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.'"

So brokenhead, do you still want to maintain that Jesus doesn't teach about hell?
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

Laird wrote:So brokenhead, do you still want to maintain that Jesus doesn't teach about hell?
Absolutely. He used concepts that were prevalent at the time to deliver his message. Such as Gehenna. And why did you choose the Jehovah's Witnesses translation? You do know that the JW adhere very closely to the Bible and that they do not believe there is such a thing as Hell?
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Laird »

Laird: So brokenhead, do you still want to maintain that Jesus doesn't teach about hell?

brokenhead: Absolutely. He used concepts that were prevalent at the time to deliver his message. Such as Gehenna.
Wow, that's some pretty extreme denial. The quotations were pretty unambiguous. Let me pick out a few of the more specific phrases: "will be liable to the fiery Gehenna"; "into the everlasting fire"; "into the fiery Gehenna"; "into the fire that cannot be put out"; "the fire is not quenched"; "I am in anguish in this blazing fire". Note in particular that he doesn't always use the term "Gehenna", he sometimes specifically speaks simply about fire - he's clearly conceiving of an actual fiery place aside from the metaphorical Gehenna.
brokenhead wrote:And why did you choose the Jehovah's Witnesses translation? You do know that the JW adhere very closely to the Bible and that they do not believe there is such a thing as Hell?
Yes, I know that, and that's mostly why I chose that translation - to be as fair to you as possible. Even giving you the benefit of the translation that is least likely to teach of hell, it's unambiguously clear that the teaching exists.
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

Laird, bear with me if you please. I am consulting with my JW friends on this one. My brief answer would no doubt not satisfy you, but it'll have to do in the meantime: the "gospels" are the works of men. The UB has this to say about the Gospel of Matthew:
The Gospel of Matthew. The so-called Gospel according to Matthew is the record of the Master's life which was written for the edification of Jewish Christians. The author of this record constantly seeks to show in Jesus' life that much which he did was that "it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet." Matthew's Gospel portrays Jesus as a son of David, picturing him as showing great respect for the law and the prophets.

The Apostle Matthew did not write this Gospel. It was written by Isador, one of his disciples, who had as a help in his work not only Matthew's personal remembrance of these events but also a certain record which the latter had made of the sayings of Jesus directly after the crucifixion. This record by Matthew was written in Aramaic; Isador wrote in Greek. There was no intent to deceive in accrediting the production to Matthew. It was the custom in those days for pupils thus to honor their teachers.
Boyan
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Boyan »

brokenhead wrote:
boyan wrote:
brokenhead wrote:You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs...
The keyword being "dogmatic." Russell here fails to establish cause and effect, as many intellectuals often do. The real truth may very well be that historically, when people slip into a dogmatic treatment, understanding, and practice of a living faith, the world around them, for which they are responsible, tends to slip into a worsening state of affairs.
Isn't that what he said basically?
I may not have voiced my disagreement properly. First, I have not read the entire argument, but from this quote, he is failing to make the distinction between a true, living religion and a dead one based on empty rites and tradition. "...the more intense has been the religion of any period..." This lumps all religion together. This is clearly seeing it from the outside. It would be like someone criticizing the way you have decorated the inside of your house when he has only seen the outside. He is not saying, basically, that a living religion can embolden and strengthen people to address the violence and inequity in the world. This is equating Christ's teaching with the Inquisition, or with the Church's silence during the Holocaust.
boyan wrote:And I very much doubt his understanding of history was limited.
See this quote from his essay:
Russell, in [i]Why I Am Not a Christian[/i], wrote:Belief in eternal hell-fire was an essential item of Christian belief until pretty recent times.
Christ never taught the concept of hell. The idea predated Christianity and stems from Zoroastrian rites which included spectacles of large bonfires and ceremonies based on fire and immolation. Russell demonstrates a 1927 knowledge of history, and from this quote alone, I suspect its depth.
I never read the NT, but it seems that it stands in the NT that Christ taught that concept at least from what Laird is quoting here, and what Christians generally say, and they certainly talk about hell among other things.
And even if it predated christianity, that is irrelevant, since he does not talk about the history of ideas, but about the teachings of christianity which include the teachings of Christ's as they appear in the gospels. If the church and the Christ in the gospels teach about hell then that is what he criticizes. Therefore it does not say anything about his knowledge of history as his intention was explaining why he is not a christian and what it is that he dislikes in the christian dictrine as it is set up in the gospels.


Russell, in [i]Why I Am Not a Christian[/i], wrote:Therefore they [the Catholic Church] laid it down that the existence of God can be proved by the unaided reason and they had to set up what they considered were arguments to prove it.
He refutes the Church here. The Church and Christ's teachings are not the same.
Russell, in [i]Why I Am Not a Christian[/i], wrote:Historically it is quite doubtful whether Christ ever existed at all, and if He did we do not know anything about him
This asserton he does not back up. Yet he goes on to argue Christ's supposed character flaws based on Gospels, none of which were written during Christ's lifetime. Again, his view is prejudiced, his history flawed at best and unsubstantiated in any case.
Christ may have never taught the concept of hell but if the gospels did and our knowledge of Christ is based on gospels what are we to do in this situation? I know that given that the gospels were written some 40-60 years after his death, and how the NT was set up in Nicaea, we can not take them as completely true in regards to what Christ really meant and said, but how do we separate the real Christ from what was put in his mouth in later times? How do you expect from Russell to do that? He criticizes Christ's teachings as they appear in the same book the Christians get their information from, and naturally he criticizes that. He is aware of the problem of determining Christ's exact teaching but he has no choice, neither does it matter since the Christ from the gospels is the Christ the majority of Christians subscribe to. That is his starting premise. He of course had no intention to go in that problem of Christ's real teaching since that wasn't the subject of his lecture. And he was probably aware of that problem as a learned man. Nietzsche for instance was aware of it in the 1880s and discusses it in Will to power for instance.
The entire quote is as follows:
That is the idea -- that we should all be wicked if we did not hold to the Christian religion. It seems to me that the people who have held to it have been for the most part extremely wicked. You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs. In the so-called ages of faith, when men really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness, there was the Inquisition, with all its tortures; there were millions of unfortunate women burned as witches; and there was every kind of cruelty practiced upon all sorts of people in the name of religion.
Again, he fails to distinguish between the acts of the Church and the faith of ordinary men and women. This is sheer ignorance, or simple prejudice; the acts of the Church are in accordance with the actions of any political power, including propagandizing, justification of brutality, and execution of the opposition. This demonstrates a lack of adherence to Christ's teachings, does it not?
''the acts of the Church are in accordance with the actions of any political power, including propagandizing, justification of brutality, and execution of the opposition. '' - What are you saying here exactly? That the church organized the inquisition as a puppet of some political power? The church was that political power in those days. And if in the gospels it says that Christ said that he who does not believe in the holy ghost should be punished or damned then it is an adherence to those teachings, to what they believed were Christ's teachings.
Boyan
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Boyan »

brokenhead wrote:
Perhaps it would be as well, first of all, to try to make out what one means by the word Christian. It is used these days in a very loose sense by a great many people. Some people mean no more by it than a person who attempts to live a good life. In that sense I suppose there would be Christians in all sects and creeds; but I do not think that that is the proper sense of the word, if only because it would imply that all the people who are not Christians -- all the Buddhists, Confucians, Mohammedans, and so on -- are not trying to live a good life.
This reasoning is patently flawed. Look at it closely. Some people mean by Christian a person who attempts to lead a good life. Russell says that this is not a proper sense of the word because it implies Buddhists, Confucians, etc... are not trying to live a good life. It does no such thing. Rather, it does the opposite. It grants that a member of any other religion who does lead a good life is also a Christian.
Christian implies leading a good life; leading a good life; therefore - christian. This is what you said.

This is a formal logical error - the affirmation of the consequence. Christians are those who lead a good life, but everyone who lead good lives are not christians.

And apart from that it is absurd to say that everyone who lives a good life is also a christian, if he does not believe that Christ is of divine nature and in heaven and hell etc. By saying that everyone leading a good life is also a christian in a sense you are reducing christianity to a mere ethical teaching not like stoicism.
In those days [of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas], if a man said that he was a Christian it was known what he meant. You accepted a whole collection of creeds which were set out with great precision, and every single syllable of those creeds you believed with the whole strength of your convictions.
This is an assertion that is not substantiated. What we have in writing from those times are things by and through the Church. Russell has no way of knowing what men of that age believed. We may, for example, suppose that men of that age professed to agree wholeheartedly with Church doctrine -again, not equivalent to Christ's teachings - so that the Church would not kill them and take their possessions.
Are you implying that our entire knowledge of the say for example 5 - 17 century A.D. come only through the church? That is nonsense. It does not matter whether the ordinary men and women of that age belived what they believed out of force or out of their own convictions, since the point he is making is that being a christian means much more than simply as you said leading a good life.
But for the successful efforts of unbelievers in the past, I could not take so elastic a definition of Christianity as that. As I said before, in olden days it had a much more full-blooded sense. For instance, it included he belief in hell. Belief in eternal hell-fire was an essential item of Christian belief until pretty recent times.
See my comment above about the influence of Zoroastrianism on early Christianity.
There is no reason to suppose that the world had a beginning at all. The idea that things must have a beginning is really due to the poverty of our imagination. Therefore, perhaps, I need not waste any more time upon the argument about the First Cause.
It can be suggested that to conclude there could not have been a First [causeless] Cause also demonstrates poverty of imagination.
Russell was agnostic. He thought that we could not find out whether God exists or not.
In short, this whole argument about natural law no longer has anything like the strength that it used to have. I am traveling on in time in my review of the arguments. The arguments that are used for the existence of God change their character as time goes on. They were at first hard intellectual arguments embodying certain quite definite fallacies. As we come to modern times they become less respectable intellectually and more and more affected by a kind of moralizing vagueness.
This essay was delivered in 1927. He is summarizing how the Natural Law Arguments of the Newtonian era has been superseded by General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics (which was so new at the time, it was not even called that [QM] - Russell had to describe it rather than refer to it.) His point was that scientific advancements nullify or at least trivialize Natural Law Arguments. I would point to the latter part of the 20th Century, when many physicists published popular works that show the idea of Laws of Nature is not dead.
Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku Klux Klan or the Fascists?
He shows an astonishing ignorance of evolutionary processes. Again, consider this essay in its historical perspective: the Allies went on to win, and the Klan is being rooted out as we speak.
What are you talking about here? What does revolutionary processes have to do with his assertion that omnipotency and omniscience could've done much better in all this time?

The point I am concerned with is that, if you are quite sure there is a difference between right and wrong, then you are in this situation: Is that difference due to God's fiat or is it not? If it is due to God's fiat, then for God himself there is no difference between right and wrong, and it is no longer a significant statement to say that God is good.
This "if - then" statement is crucial to Russell's argument. Yet he does not prove or support it in any way.
Support what? He is simply revealing that both solutions are unacceptable. If god had a choice, then why did he chose one thing over another? If it didn't matter then it doesn't matter for us either and it holds no weight.


You could, of course, if you liked, say that there was a superior deity who gave orders to the God that made this world
, or could take up the line that some of the gnostics took up -- a line which I often thought was a very plausible one -- that as a matter of fact this world that we know was made by the devil at a moment when God was not looking. There is a good deal to be said for that, and I am not concerned to refute it.
Russell here hits upon - unintentionally, I think - the notion of a Creator who is not the First Cause.
Then there is another point which I consider excellent. You will remember that Christ said, "Judge not lest ye be judged." That principle I do not think you would find was popular in the law courts of Christian countries. I have known in my time quite a number of judges who were very earnest Christians, and none of them felt that they were acting contrary to Christian principles in what they did.
Russell fails to grasp the essential point of justice in this argument. Justice is an act of the many; mercy the act of the individual. Christ intended us as individuals not to judge other individuals, he in no sense said that collective justice should not take place. In fact, he said, "What ye shall bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven."
And what is collective justice other than the sum of individual judgments?
The early Christians did really believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In that respect, clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and He was certainly not superlatively wise.
Here Russell plainly says that the actions of other people prove that Christ was not wise. This is not only illogical, it is at best deliberately ignorant.
That is because he lead others to believe what was proven to be false. Christ was wrong in that regard - of end of the world- and he lead others to believe it. That is the point.
Then you come to moral questions. There is one very serious defect to my mind in Christ's moral character, and that is that He believed in hell. I do not myself feel that any person who is really profoundly humane can believe in everlasting punishment. Christ certainly as depicted in the Gospels did believe in everlasting punishment, and one does find repeatedly a vindictive fury against those people who would not listen to His preaching -- an attitude which is not uncommon with preachers, but which does somewhat detract from superlative excellence.
Nowhere, in any version of the New Testament, does Christ say there is a hell. This assertion of Russell's almost leads me to believe that he had not read the NT. In fact, in this essay, he quotes the NT without citing specific chapter and verse.
You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.
Here Russell correctly criticizes organized religion.
A good world needs knowledge, kindliness, and courage; it does not need a regretful hankering after the past or a fettering of the free intelligence by the words uttered long ago by ignorant men. It needs a fearless outlook and a free intelligence. It needs hope for the future, not looking back all the time toward a past that is dead, which we trust will be far surpassed by the future that our intelligence can create.
Yes, one should not revive the works of ignorant men. It is not clear from his essay whether he places Christ in that category, but it is clear that he tries to take Christ down a peg or two.

It is this that I find intellectually repellent.[/quote]

I just put my words in bold 'cause I messed up the quotes.
brokenhead
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

Your refutation is kind of hard to read because it's not clear when you are quoting and when you are speaking.
boyan wrote:Russell was agnostic. He thought that we could not find out whether God exists or not.
I know what an agnostic is. How is it that people find out every day that God exists, then? Because not everybody is an agnostic. That he was an agnostic was his problem. I do not need to make it my own. I start out with the assumption that while another person cannot prove to me that God exists - and many have tried - I am nevertheless quite capable of finding out whether or not God exists on my own, with my own two eyes, and my own wits. Agnostics believe that the existence of God cannot be discovered. I ask you - would it then make sense for an agnostic to try to find out? The answer is plainly "no." The agnostic has given up. I choose not to.
boyan wrote:Are you implying that our entire knowledge of the say for example 5 - 17 century A.D. come only through the church? That is nonsense.
It most certainly is not nonsense. I did not use the word "entire" because there were undoubtedly learned men of letters not affiliated with the Church who wrote things down. Jews, for instance. And if they were not affiliated technically, they were likely sponsored by the Church. You know as well as I that the vast majority of written history that pertains to the Church in its earlier centuries comes from the Church, or has been vetted by the Church.
Christian implies leading a good life; leading a good life; therefore - christian. This is what you said.

This is a formal logical error - the affirmation of the consequence. Christians are those who lead a good life, but everyone who lead good lives are not christians.
You are making it more complicated than it has to be. Go back to what Russell says: "Some people mean no more by it than a person who attempts to live a good life. In that sense I suppose there would be Christians in all sects and creeds" He uses this definition and says it must be incorrect, because it implies Buddhists, for example, are not trying to live a good life. But the definition in quotes IMPLIES NO SUCH THING. Read it again!!! It implies that people who lead a good life, no matter what their religion, are Christians because they attempt to lead good lives.

Look, boyan, you are not alone in this misunderstanding. It is like Ghandi said: "Of course I am a Christian. And a Jew. And a Muslim."

Christ was teaching big ideas. Bertrand Russell is quibbling over the use of the word "Christian." He thinks the definition that if you live a good life - as Christ did - you are a Christian is a bad definition. What do YOU think, boyan? He incorrectly infers that it means a Buddhist cannot lead a good life. Who said so?
By saying that everyone leading a good life is also a christian in a sense you are reducing christianity to a mere ethical teaching not like stoicism.
Did you mean not unlike Stoicism? I have to disagree in the strongest terms. I do not reduce Christianity in the slightest. People like their ideologies nicely packaged. If Christianity were actually to succeed as an ethical teaching, it would be the most enormous of triumphs. Why is it that people can't handle the truth? Christ's teachings supercede philosophy and ethics, but if that is all you can get out of it, fine.

You feel like you want to live your life as a good person and not have to be associated with Christ or his teachings. It cannot be done, my friend. "I am the way" is not a boast, it is a statement of fact.

I don't want to get too distracted by this post. I am still waiting on my JW friends to come across with their party line about Christ not teaching there is a Hell. That is what I always believed in my heart since I can remember. And that is the assertion in the Urantia Book. That is a big reason why the UB rings true to me.
Boyan
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Boyan »

brokenhead wrote:Your refutation is kind of hard to read because it's not clear when you are quoting and when you are speaking.
boyan wrote:Russell was agnostic. He thought that we could not find out whether God exists or not.
I know what an agnostic is. How is it that people find out every day that God exists, then? Because not everybody is an agnostic. That he was an agnostic was his problem. I do not need to make it my own. I start out with the assumption that while another person cannot prove to me that God exists - and many have tried - I am [nevertheless quite capable of finding out whether or not God exists on my own, with my own two eyes, and my own wits. Agnostics believe that the existence of God cannot be discovered. I ask you - would it then make sense for an agnostic to try to find out? The answer is plainly "no." The agnostic has given up. I choose not to.
I really don't know how is it that people find that God exists as they don't seem able to explain it to others. What does it matter whether you believe something you call God to exist or not?
boyan wrote:Are you implying that our entire knowledge of the say for example 5 - 17 century A.D. come only through the church? That is nonsense.
It most certainly is not nonsense. I did not use the word "entire" because there were undoubtedly learned men of letters not affiliated with the Church who wrote things down. Jews, for instance. And if they were not affiliated technically, they were likely sponsored by the Church. You know as well as I that the vast majority of written history that pertains to the Church in its earlier centuries comes from the Church, or has been vetted by the Church.
But I am not talking only about the earliest centuries of christianity either, because the horrible things done in the name of god were happening well in the 17th and 18th century with the inquisition and stifling of the human reason. And from those times we have records of educated men showing what was precisely the point of Russell and that is that being christian is more than simply professing to lead a good life.
Christian implies leading a good life; leading a good life; therefore - christian. This is what you said.

This is a formal logical error - the affirmation of the consequence. Christians are those who lead a good life, but everyone who lead good lives are not christians.
You are making it more complicated than it has to be. Go back to what Russell says: "Some people mean no more by it than a person who attempts to live a good life. In that sense I suppose there would be Christians in all sects and creeds" He uses this definition and says it must be incorrect, because it implies Buddhists, for example, are not trying to live a good life. But the definition in quotes IMPLIES NO SUCH THING. Read it again!!! It implies that people who lead a good life, no matter what their religion, are Christians because they attempt to lead good lives.
Look, boyan, you are not alone in this misunderstanding. It is like Ghandi said: "Of course I am a Christian. And a Jew. And a Muslim."
Why would you call a christian anyone who leads a good life? Who gave you the right to do that? There are many of those who consider themselves as leading good lives and yet would certainly not wish to be called christians. By calling everyone who leads a good life christian, you are being unfair to many people.
Christ was teaching big ideas. Bertrand Russell is quibbling over the use of the word "Christian." He thinks the definition that if you live a good life - as Christ did - you are a Christian is a bad definition. What do YOU think, boyan? He incorrectly infers that it means a Buddhist cannot lead a good life. Who said so?
Ok, he wasn't completely fair on that one, but it still stands what I said above and that is that binding leading a good life and being christian together and inseparable is quite problematic. As I said why do you assume that calling some Muslim who leads a good life Christian would be met with approval by him? You are monopolizing 'leading a good life'. You are missing the point - by saying that a buddhist leading a good is a christian you are claiming that only christians are leading good lives, since in your mind he is no longer a buddhist but a christian. You are negating him the right of leading a good life and staying a buddhist. You imply that he must be both, but he does not.
By saying that everyone leading a good life is also a christian in a sense you are reducing christianity to a mere ethical teaching not like stoicism.
Did you mean not unlike Stoicism? I have to disagree in the strongest terms. I do not reduce Christianity in the slightest. People like their ideologies nicely packaged. If Christianity were actually to succeed as an ethical teaching, it would be the most enormous of triumphs. Why is it that people can't handle the truth? Christ's teachings supercede philosophy and ethics, but if that is all you can get out of it, fine.

You feel like you want to live your life as a good person and not have to be associated with Christ or his teachings. It cannot be done, my friend. "I am the way" is not a boast, it is a statement of fact.
You are being dogmatic here and are showing precisely what Russell aimed at, and that is the christian habit of monopolizing goodness as exclusive to them, so that anyone leading a good life couldn't get off without being labeled a christian. You can very much lead a good life without being associated with Christ, just look at Socrates for example.
Boyan
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Boyan »

brokenhead wrote:Your refutation is kind of hard to read because it's not clear when you are quoting and when you are speaking.
boyan wrote:Russell was agnostic. He thought that we could not find out whether God exists or not.
I know what an agnostic is. How is it that people find out every day that God exists, then? Because not everybody is an agnostic. That he was an agnostic was his problem. I do not need to make it my own. I start out with the assumption that while another person cannot prove to me that God exists - and many have tried - I am [nevertheless quite capable of finding out whether or not God exists on my own, with my own two eyes, and my own wits. Agnostics believe that the existence of God cannot be discovered. I ask you - would it then make sense for an agnostic to try to find out? The answer is plainly "no." The agnostic has given up. I choose not to.
I really don't know how is it that people find that God exists as they don't seem able to explain it to others. What does it matter whether you believe something you call God to exist or not?
boyan wrote:Are you implying that our entire knowledge of the say for example 5 - 17 century A.D. come only through the church? That is nonsense.
It most certainly is not nonsense. I did not use the word "entire" because there were undoubtedly learned men of letters not affiliated with the Church who wrote things down. Jews, for instance. And if they were not affiliated technically, they were likely sponsored by the Church. You know as well as I that the vast majority of written history that pertains to the Church in its earlier centuries comes from the Church, or has been vetted by the Church.
But I am not talking only about the earliest centuries of christianity either, because the horrible things done in the name of god were happening well in the 17th and 18th century with the inquisition and stifling of the human reason. And from those times we have records of educated men (like Voltaire) showing what was precisely the point of Russell and that is that being christian is more than simply professing to lead a good life.
Christian implies leading a good life; leading a good life; therefore - christian. This is what you said.

This is a formal logical error - the affirmation of the consequence. Christians are those who lead a good life, but everyone who lead good lives are not christians.
You are making it more complicated than it has to be. Go back to what Russell says: "Some people mean no more by it than a person who attempts to live a good life. In that sense I suppose there would be Christians in all sects and creeds" He uses this definition and says it must be incorrect, because it implies Buddhists, for example, are not trying to live a good life. But the definition in quotes IMPLIES NO SUCH THING. Read it again!!! It implies that people who lead a good life, no matter what their religion, are Christians because they attempt to lead good lives.
Look, boyan, you are not alone in this misunderstanding. It is like Ghandi said: "Of course I am a Christian. And a Jew. And a Muslim."
Why would you call a christian anyone who leads a good life? Who gave you the right to do that? There are many of those who consider themselves as leading good lives and yet would certainly not wish to be called christians. By calling everyone who leads a good life christian, you are being unfair to many people.
Christ was teaching big ideas. Bertrand Russell is quibbling over the use of the word "Christian." He thinks the definition that if you live a good life - as Christ did - you are a Christian is a bad definition. What do YOU think, boyan? He incorrectly infers that it means a Buddhist cannot lead a good life. Who said so?
It still stands what I said above and that is that binding leading a good life and being christian together and inseparable is quite problematic. As I said why do you assume that calling some Muslim who leads a good life Christian would be met with approval by him? You are monopolizing 'leading a good life'. You are missing the point - by saying that a buddhist leading a good is a christian you are claiming that only christians are leading good lives, since in your mind he is no longer a buddhist but a christian. You are negating him the right of leading a good life and staying a buddhist. You imply that he must be both, but he does not.
By saying that everyone leading a good life is also a christian in a sense you are reducing christianity to a mere ethical teaching not like stoicism.
Did you mean not unlike Stoicism? I have to disagree in the strongest terms. I do not reduce Christianity in the slightest. People like their ideologies nicely packaged. If Christianity were actually to succeed as an ethical teaching, it would be the most enormous of triumphs. Why is it that people can't handle the truth? Christ's teachings supercede philosophy and ethics, but if that is all you can get out of it, fine.

You feel like you want to live your life as a good person and not have to be associated with Christ or his teachings. It cannot be done, my friend. "I am the way" is not a boast, it is a statement of fact.
You are being dogmatic here and are showing precisely what Russell aimed at, and that is the christian habit of monopolizing goodness as exclusive to them, so that anyone leading a good life couldn't get off without being labeled a christian. You can very much lead a good life without being associated with Christ, just look at Socrates for example.[/quote]
brokenhead
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

boyan wrote:Ok, he wasn't completely fair on that one, but it still stands what I said above and that is that binding leading a good life and being christian together and inseparable is quite problematic.
Problematic to you, not problematic to me.
As I said why do you assume that calling some Muslim who leads a good life Christian would be met with approval by him? You are monopolizing 'leading a good life'.
You're not seeing my meaning. I don't "call" anybody anything. I leave it to other people to call themselves whatever they wish. They can put it on a T-shirt, I don't care. I consider "some Muslim" to be Christian if he leads a good life. And if I were to say that to him, I would make sure he understood it to be the highest compliment I could give. This has actually happened to me several times in my life, with Muslims and Jews. They got my meaning and were pleased. What is this "monopolizing" accusation? Where does that come from? If a Taoist and I were in discussion and he were to exclaim to me, "You have obviously found the Tao," should I take it as in insult? When my Jewish friends call me a Mensch, I should take offense?
You are missing the point - by saying that a buddhist leading a good is a christian you are claiming that only christians are leading good lives, since in your mind he is no longer a buddhist but a christian.
No, I think you are missing the point. Why are you telling me what is in my mind? Do you not see that your assumption of what is in my mind is completely incorrect? It's my mind. And I'm telling you that you are wrong. He can not only be a Buddhist, he is a Buddhist. Why would my paying him a compliment by calling him or considering him Christian make him anything other than what he is, a Buddhist?
Boyan
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by Boyan »

The point is in that you're conception of being christian is vastly different than what I and Russell think being a christian implies. To you, leading a good life is enough to be called christian.

I do not wish to argue anymore on this as I made my point already. However, since you seem to be a believer you might be interested in a miracle that takes place in Jerusalem every orthodox easter which doesn't seem to have a rational explanation, which I found interesting. I watched it on the tv one year, but couldn't find a video of it on youtube.

http://www.holyfire.org/eng/velich.htm
brokenhead
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Re: Bertrand Russell - Why I am not a christian

Post by brokenhead »

boyan wrote:You are being dogmatic here and are showing precisely what Russell aimed at, and that is the christian habit of monopolizing goodness as exclusive to them, so that anyone leading a good life couldn't get off without being labeled a christian. You can very much lead a good life without being associated with Christ, just look at Socrates for example
If that came across as dogmatic, all I can say was that it was not intended to be so. I cannot answer for other Christians. Monoplizing goodness is a Christian habit? Isn't that what all organized religions do? Yes, you can very much lead a good life without being "associated" with Christ, whatever that means. But you will then be living as he lived.

Boyan, I have no idea what religion, creed, or philosophy you adhere to. But if you insist on focusing on what separates people and peoples, rather than on what we have in common, you are going down an unenviable path.

My problem with Russell is that he is an agnostic and speaking about something that he doesn't think he can know anything about. He also doesn't think you or I know can know anything about it either. That is his view, because he is an agnostic. Yet he delivers his essay just the same.
The point is in that you're conception of being christian is vastly different than what I and Russell think being a christian implies. To you, leading a good life is enough to be called christian.
I consider all people who try their best to lead good lives to be my brothers and sisters in Christ. If we just said the same thing, it somehow doesn't sound that way. But I am aware that there are people who do not want to be "associated" with Christ in any way. I think it is people who espouse Christ's teachings that they are really shunning; people like me, for instance. I tried my best and I failed to answer your questions the right way, I'm sure. Hey, look, Bible-thumpers offend me very much. Not long ago, I was in the emergency room at a local hospital and a priest came in and asked me if I wanted the Last Rites. I was raised Catholic, and I was incensed. I wasn't about to die, but he didn't know that. He thinks his reading something out of a book in front of what may be a dying man is better than what that dying man can do on his own. That I resent, boyan. I resent other people telling me what I can and cannot know about God, how I should and should not feel. My relationship with God is mine, it's between God and me. It's an ongoing thing like any relationship. It involves Christ, the Creator Son. When I read Bertrand Russell say why he is not a Christian, I am offended. He did not keep it to himself, he delivers the essay as a speech. He is saying there is something amiss with me, because I have this relationship and I am a Christian. I don't go out and proseletyze. I do not give speeches about why I am a Christian. This forum is about it for me.
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