Forget about Enlightenment

[Shahrazad]

No, I'm not bored, because I don't live with a Buddha.

But to tell you the truth, this week I spent four days without the internet, and I went through some pretty annoying withdrawal symptoms.

-

[brokenhead]

DQ,

This is why it would never occur to a Buddha to laugh. Nothing oppresses him.

With all due respect, a Buddha is boring as hell.

Really.

And it occurs to me that you never hear this in the New Testament: "And Jesus laughed and turned to his disciples and said..."

I'll just bet it's the oh-so-serious followers writing about events behind this oversight. My guess is that Jesus and the Buddha looked at the people around them and laughed themselves silly.

[mikiel]

David,
We were discussing "the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment" (with focus on your extremely negative judgements and assumptions about "perfection" in enlightenment) when you quit on me. I called your hand.
I think it would inform the forum if you would reply.
mikiel

[clyde]

mikiel;

While we wait for David's reply, I thought I'd share something I posted elsewhere regarding enlightenment and perfection:

It seems to me that we sometimes hold an unrealistic expectation of perfection. It may be perfection of feelings/emotions; which may be expressed as non-feeling/emotions (either entirely or ‘negative’ feelings/emotions; e.g. – I will never feel anger.) or having feelings of oneness or wholeness. It may be perfection of the mind; which may be expressed as non-thinking (either entirely or ‘negative’ thoughts; e.g. – I will never think a selfish thought.) or being omniscient. Or it may be other ‘perfections’ (e.g. – the body, actions, etc.). One clue as to why these expectations of perfection are unrealistic is that each expectation is eternal and unchanging, and that is not realistic.

[David Quinn]

David,
We were discussing "the nature of Ultimate Reality and the path to Enlightenment" (with focus on your extremely negative judgements and assumptions about "perfection" in enlightenment) when you quit on me. I called your hand.
I think it would inform the forum if you would reply.
mikiel

Okay.

DQ: "What if the Rude Boy needs his own medicine? Does he accept it, or does he lash out defensively? What if he believes that he has already reached perfection?"

"perfection" is a *concept* in your own mind... 'dude.'
Enlightenment defines perfection... not as the "perfect Buddha Nature" of your limited (and unenlightened *belief*, but as unity in Identity with the One in All. (Not the words... the actual experience... get over your judgement!)

If we say that enlightenment is "unity in Identity with the One in All" or "consciousness of true nature" or however we want to put it, then, for me at least, perfection would be the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment. In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment.

Late nite musing... more later on your other misconceptions about me. (You still seem to believe you are the "expert" on such deluded teachers as mikiel. Never the less, I must pull rank on who is the expert on this guy... the "me" who was a fantasy all along.

What if... You think I need your superior "medicine" to fix what you think is wrong with me... and you, after all, turn out to be an arrogant asshole setting yourself up as a judge of my case... now before your court... as whatever elder you think you are by virtue of your founding or whatever... so I pesume... this website. ( I could be wrong about that... just that you seem to think you own the place and do have seniority here.)

Don't jump to the usual conclusion projecting that I am angry here... just because emotions are still a major issue for you. I speak truly that I have not experienced anger since my ego died in '94. You can think whatever you like about 'mikiel' as a false teacher and barf it all out here as your judgements... but I speak the truth about "my" (grok the quotes) liberation, and you continue to talk your personal shit about me as if it were more true than my testimony about "my" awakening.

Just the fact that you are taking things so personally indicates to me that you still have anger issues. But still, as you say, you are the one who is living your life and so, in theory at least, you are the expert on your own situation. What about other emotions? Are you saying that you have never experienced any emotion at all since 1994?

I will not be suprised if you have the power, and use it, to ban me from this site.

Unless you decide to spam or troll the forum, that won't happen.

-

[mikiel]

David,
You wrote:
"If we say that enlightenment is "unity in Identity with the One in All" or "consciousness of true nature" or however we want to put it, then, for me at least, perfection would be the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment. In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment. "

Once ego is exposed as illusory identity, the universal gift of grace is immediately realized. "Perfection (is) the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment." This is the true nature of *universal enlightnment* (which is *not* limited to Buddhism.)

DQ:" In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment."

It *is* impossible for that "bubble" of duality I mentioned before to ever become a believable barrier or boundary again between "my awareness" and Universal Consciousness. Once the "bubble" pops it can never be "re-blown" around "me" or anyone who suffered the illusion of separateness.

You write:
"Just the fact that you are taking things so personally indicates to me that you still have anger issues. But still, as you say, you are the one who is living your life and so, in theory at least, you are the expert on your own situation. What about other emotions? Are you saying that you have never experienced any emotion at all since 1994?"

It is not a "fact" that I am "taking things so personally..." It is your projection from your (still very active) illusion of "personal self." I tried to show you what dedication to "radical honesty" means, and I even shared a quote from Ken Wilber about the way a "radically honest" teacher (which I am) teaches. You clearly didn't "get it", clouded as you are with your personal prejudices against hard confrontation, which always looks like anger to the angry.

No, I am not "saying that (I) have never experienced any emotion at all since 1994?"
Here is a replay of my post to samadhi, around 12/14 which you apparently missed. It responds to his question about emotions after enlightenment... and the last paragraph is on the difference between a glimpse or 'peak experience' of being spiritually awake and the permanent "estate" (as distinguished from temporary "state") of enlightenment.
--------------
"Thanks for your sincere inquiry. "Emotions" is a tricky concept, because it means something to folks prior to enlightenment, but "they" are totally transformed when egocentricity falls away and selfess Realization ("I Am Consciousness") takes its place.
Most emotions are based on personal attachments of various kinds.

Fear, for instance, ultimately boils down to the survival instinct, but anything that threatens individual safety, status, etc., is a cause of fear for everyone who still thinks s/he IS somebody, i.e., that personal identity/self is real. When there is no longer any illusion of "self" as separate from omnipresent consciousness, fear naturally falls away. Likewise, anger. Attachment to a certain outcome based on "This is who I am"... and all the "programs" of the culturally conditionse "robot", the egocentric "me."

Compassion transcends such "personal emotions." So does joy/bliss.
Suffering happens without a "sufferer", but compasion remains whether "this one or that one/or ones" are experiencing suffering. Always, the motivation is there to relieve the suffering however possible.
Love is transformed from the kind of personal, posessive, jealous "I'm yours and you're mine" kind of "love" to actual Divine Love constantly present and totally unconditional.

As to your second question, consciousness is omnipresent whether individual realize It or not. The illusion of self believes it"self" to be separate and "have" an individual consciosness. Of course we all have individual perspectives... *what we are aware of*... but enlightenment is realizing that we are the Awareness, not the content of it, not the "what" above.
Folks will have "flashes" of this realization, or "peak experiences" of all varieties. But enlightenment itself is full and permanent realization "That I Am Consciousness*, no longer "my" but The Consciousness, same One in all, here and throughout the cosmos."
-----------------

This is my best effort, in this moment, to clarify "all of the above."

mikiel

[Sapius]

If we say that enlightenment is "unity in Identity with the One in All" or "consciousness of true nature" or however we want to put it, then, for me at least, perfection would be the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment. In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment.

Wouldn’t that mean one is still attached to the ideals of what that word itself means, rather than realizing that there isn’t any other reality other than what is?

How can one ever forget a realization once realized, (unless one goes cuckoo), and slips back into un-enlightenment, when well aware that 'enlightenment' itself is not some thing one could grasp at in the first place?

One is necessarily building non-existent ghosts by thinking one can grasp “perfection”, which is just as good as grasping “enlightenment”, which happens if one thinks one is slipping back into something un-perfect, while well knowing that there is no such thing as imperfection in and of Reality, but keeps forgetting THAT, while “HE” looks at but his “own actions” as imperfect.

In your books, David, perfection and imperfection should be both the disease of a dualistic mind ONLY, not non-duality, which you think you are slipping back from, for possibly only one reason, your own attachment of giving inherent importance to duality. Get over it already.

BTW, there can possibly be One is All, but never ALL in ONE.

However, it is all up to ones own Self; take it or leave it.

[David Quinn]

If we say that enlightenment is "unity in Identity with the One in All" or "consciousness of true nature" or however we want to put it, then, for me at least, perfection would be the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment. In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment.

Wouldn’t that mean one is still attached to the ideals of what that word itself means, rather than realizing that there isn’t any other reality other than what is?

How can one ever forget a realization once realized, (unless one goes cuckoo), and slips back into un-enlightenment, when well aware that 'enlightenment' itself is not some thing one could grasp at in the first place?

Certainly, if one is grasping at things, or forming an attachment to things, then one is no longer in enlightenment.

The experience of enlightenment is not something that can be grasped, nor can it ever be an object of attachment. It is a living reality that one either tunes into or one doesn't. If one is able to tune into it permanently, then that is what I call perfection.

-

[David Quinn]

David,
You wrote:
"If we say that enlightenment is "unity in Identity with the One in All" or "consciousness of true nature" or however we want to put it, then, for me at least, perfection would be the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment. In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment. "

Once ego is exposed as illusory identity, the universal gift of grace is immediately realized. "Perfection (is) the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment." This is the true nature of *universal enlightnment* (which is *not* limited to Buddhism.)

No one here has ever said that it is limited to Buddhism. However, it isn't enough simply to expose the illusory nature of the ego. One also has to expose and eliminate all of the habits and delusions which have supported the illusion over the years, going back to early childhood. These habits and delusions are deeply entrenched in the brain and can't be undone overnight. It involves a long, long process of reversing a lifetime of bad habits.

That is what worries me when you say that you one day "popped" your ego and that's that. It leads me to think that you are not fully aware of what's involved.

DQ:" In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment."

It *is* impossible for that "bubble" of duality I mentioned before to ever become a believable barrier or boundary again between "my awareness" and Universal Consciousness. Once the "bubble" pops it can never be "re-blown" around "me" or anyone who suffered the illusion of separateness.

Are you now immortal?

No, I am not "saying that (I) have never experienced any emotion at all since 1994?"
Here is a replay of my post to samadhi, around 12/14 which you apparently missed. It responds to his question about emotions after enlightenment... and the last paragraph is on the difference between a glimpse or 'peak experience' of being spiritually awake and the permanent "estate" (as distinguished from temporary "state") of enlightenment.
--------------
"Thanks for your sincere inquiry. "Emotions" is a tricky concept, because it means something to folks prior to enlightenment, but "they" are totally transformed when egocentricity falls away and selfess Realization ("I Am Consciousness") takes its place.
Most emotions are based on personal attachments of various kinds.

Fear, for instance, ultimately boils down to the survival instinct, but anything that threatens individual safety, status, etc., is a cause of fear for everyone who still thinks s/he IS somebody, i.e., that personal identity/self is real. When there is no longer any illusion of "self" as separate from omnipresent consciousness, fear naturally falls away. Likewise, anger. Attachment to a certain outcome based on "This is who I am"... and all the "programs" of the culturally conditionse "robot", the egocentric "me."

Compassion transcends such "personal emotions." So does joy/bliss.
Suffering happens without a "sufferer", but compasion remains whether "this one or that one/or ones" are experiencing suffering. Always, the motivation is there to relieve the suffering however possible.

If there no longer any self or other, then who is doing the compassion and who is receiving it?

If you identify with the Awareness alone and not its contents, then what would motivate you to eliminate one piece of content of Awareness and elevate another?

Love is transformed from the kind of personal, posessive, jealous "I'm yours and you're mine" kind of "love" to actual Divine Love constantly present and totally unconditional.

I'm curious to know if you are married, and if you are, how this "unconditional love" plays out in a marriage situation.

As to your second question, consciousness is omnipresent whether individual realize It or not. The illusion of self believes it"self" to be separate and "have" an individual consciosness. Of course we all have individual perspectives... *what we are aware of*... but enlightenment is realizing that we are the Awareness, not the content of it, not the "what" above.
Folks will have "flashes" of this realization, or "peak experiences" of all varieties. But enlightenment itself is full and permanent realization "That I Am Consciousness*, no longer "my" but The Consciousness, same One in all, here and throughout the cosmos."

As I say, it is possible to have a connection to Awareness and yet still retain all the deep roots of the ego hidden beneath the surface. It is easy for a person who believes that he identifies with Awareness to erect mental blocks about his own egotistical behaviour and to rationalize it away when he does perceive it. I see this all the time.

-

[Sapius]

If we say that enlightenment is "unity in Identity with the One in All" or "consciousness of true nature" or however we want to put it, then, for me at least, perfection would be the effortless ability to remain in enlightenment in every conscious moment. In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment.

Wouldn’t that mean one is still attached to the ideals of what that word itself means, rather than realizing that there isn’t any other reality other than what is?

How can one ever forget a realization once realized, (unless one goes cuckoo), and slips back into un-enlightenment, when well aware that 'enlightenment' itself is not some thing one could grasp at in the first place?

Certainly, if one is grasping at things, or forming an attachment to things, then one is no longer in enlightenment.

The experience of enlightenment is not something that can be grasped, nor can it ever be an object of attachment. It is a living reality that one either tunes into or one doesn't. If one is able to tune into it permanently, then that is what I call perfection.

-

So what do you mean here...

DQ:" In other words, reaching the stage of being beyond all possibility of slipping back into unenlightenment."

M: It *is* impossible for that "bubble" of duality I mentioned before to ever become a believable barrier or boundary again between "my awareness" and Universal Consciousness. Once the "bubble" pops it can never be "re-blown" around "me" or anyone who suffered the illusion of separateness.

DQ: Are you now immortal?

For the first time I feel like saying aloud... WHAT THE FUCK! :D

Immortality is the PERFECTION you seek?! Is that the Ultimate "tuning in"?

What has immortality got to do with this?

If I'm not totally mistaken, for the first time I think you really need help, David.

(PS: I have no reason to believe in a 'Universal Consciousness' though, which is something apart from "my awareness", or that I could or have merged into.)

[sagerage]

...I guess it has something to do with the infinity and how there's no death. This is one of the many things that I don't understand about the whole enlightenment subject. Death is real, but in a sense it should be, because that may only hinder(?) spiritual growth...?

[Sapius]

...I guess it has something to do with the infinity and how there's no death. This is one of the many things that I don't understand about the whole enlightenment subject. Death is real, but in a sense it should be, because that may only hinder(?) spiritual growth...?

I don’t exactly know what you mean in the later half, but say the infiniteness of existence itself, has nothing to do with neither life nor death, nor mortality or immortality. That only applies to things that are subject to it. However, to consider oneself as immortal could only be a personal egotistical poetic expression, just like calling existence God. I have no real issues with that, only that that should not be considered as the last logical nail that hammers in understanding. Such expressions are only an expression of how one feels about his logical understandings and conclusions, hence called poetic expressions.

I know that David is actually telling M that he is not immortal however, but is quite comfortable to claim that “I” have no beginning or end, himself. So, it is not fair to throw a rhetorical question from a different perspective when someone is speaking from another, and one knows it. Quite often I do the same with David on purpose, to actually show him that he does that with others all the time. That is, answer or question from a different perspective than the other person is speaking from.

Hence, according to me, what has ‘immortality’, (by definition), got to do with the perspective that M is talking about? If he says Yes, I am, then too he can always explain that through a different perspective, for example - “there is no beginning or end to me”. Essentially it means the same, but may be not in a poetic sense only.

(It seems to me that I have not addressed one of your posts addressed to me, (I think), but I’m sorry, I can’t seem to find it again, sagerage)

(Oops! that was DF in the 'logic' thread, found it.)

[mikiel]

The folowing was posted earlier today (12/26) in reply to DQ's post to me on 12/25.
It went up and I saw it posted. Now, this eve. it has disappeared.
Draw your own conclusions.
Luckily, I have been copying posts before posting, cuz my computer will blink out and lose signal when posting sometimes.
So I had it backed up. Here it is again. If he deletes it again, know that you have a tyrant in control here, deleting stuff that reveals his egocentric perspective... which is obvious to anyone with spiritual "sight."
Let's see if this makes it to the boards... again!;.. if not , I am "banned."


DQ wrote:
"No one here has ever said that it is limited to Buddhism. However, it isn't enough simply to expose the illusory nature of the ego. One also has to expose and eliminate all of the habits and delusions which have supported the illusion over the years, going back to early childhood. These habits and delusions are deeply entrenched in the brain and can't be undone overnight. It involves a long, long process of reversing a lifetime of bad habits.

That is what worries me when you say that you one day "popped" your ego and that's that. It leads me to think that you are not fully aware of what's involved. "

One... Who? "...has to expose and eliminate all of the habits and delusions which have supported the illusion over the years,..."
"One" who still sees himself as a separate identity has "work to do" to reach the realization of unity beyond this illusory duality.

When I said that all my personal programs about "personal identiy" "popped", that experience included the "habits and delusions" you speak of.
It is true that they "have supported the illusion over the years, going back to early childhood." My 22yr carreer in pschotherapy has given me an appreciation of how deeply rooted the illusion of "separate self" really is. I regret to inform you that you are still suffering from it.
That you still think of your "self" as the active agent who must purge himself of all lack of "perfection"... this speaks clearly of your own illusion... no matter how "wise" you aspire to be.

You wrote: "That is what worries me when you say that you one day "popped" your ego and that's that. It leads me to think that you are not fully aware of what's involved"

This statement makes me wonder how much of my "awakening story" you have read, either here or on my site.
I have no "attachment" to whether you know my true story of awakining or not. But the truth is (and has been very available to you) that I "sat" for an hour a day for 25 years before the journey that took me to the "breakthrough." That alone was over 9,000 hours of peaceful, blissful transcendence *before* the "final approach" (two months at 8-12 hrs a day) and then the near death experince, very nearly drowning at sea.
My very brief "story" before that is easily found on my website, if you are actually interested."Selflessness" is the short version, and "My Journey to Awakening" fleshes it out a bit more, tho still a quick read.
I really wonder how much more you "think should be... involved" as a lifelong intention toward true spiritual awakeing.

DQ: "Are you now immortal? "

Again "you" Who?" This individual? Of course not! This Consciousness (identical with The Consciousness)... Yes, of course!This is the universal real- "I"-zation (please indulge the word-play) among all who wake up from the ego dream (the illusion.)

DQ: "f there no longer any self or other, then who is doing the compassion and who is receiving it?"

"If you identify with the Awareness alone and not its contents, then what would motivate you to eliminate one piece of content of Awareness and elevate another?"

The "motivation" you speak of is egocentric motivation based on ego's mental *concepts about* "content."
"Content" naturally arises in consciousness. There is no "motivation" to change the content, as it is already the *perfect* content for "right now" for "this individual" in all curcumstances. (including new inspirations and changes in intentional focus... for a better world.

"I" just spent 3 days in *perfect solitude" at my "Center for Conscious Unity, an 80 acre land trust, of which I am founder and legally "First Trustee."But my cabin is near the top of the hill above the intentianal community... and about an inch of snow fell on the
hilltop, for "Christmas." Perfect.

The "who" you are inquiring of is the One Consciousness Who is aware of this local, individual perspective, without the illusion of "my awareness" (implying this awareness *of* specific content) or "my consciousness", the "personal agent" or capacity for this local awareness.

DQ: "I'm curious to know if you are married, and if you are, how this "unconditional love" plays out in a marriage situation."

I am reluctant to share such personal info with you because of your predisposition to categorize and judge based on your personal biases about "emotions." Maybe after a certain level of respect is established between us I will share that information, which is common knowledge in my "real life" here.
(this before my last statements about leaving this little cult of David's cynicism.)

(I will share that my lover at the time of my awakining broke up with me because I spent 3 days in Visioning at the rim of Haleokala and missed calling her on her birthday. This set the stage for a "no attachments" approach to the "big day on the beach" at Hanalai Bay on the North Shore of Kauai. (You might actually enjoy the story, onsite... you seem very unfamiliar with the info already offered.)

DQ: "
As I say, it is possible to have a connection to Awareness and yet still retain all the deep roots of the ego hidden beneath the surface. It is easy for a person who believes that he identifies with Awareness to erect mental blocks about his own egotistical behaviour and to rationalize it away when he does perceive it. I see this all the time."

Yes it is possible and easy, as you say. This may be your case, which you constantly project onto everyone sharing "enlightenment" here in your forum. I guess you are here to cut everyone down to your own size. I mean this with all due compassion for your obvious suffering and struggle.
I think I will "go" now, as you are so cynical that you will not give true testimony on enlightenment a fair space to air and share and dialogue.
I do believe you should change the site subtitle to something more appropriate to your obvious intent and prejudice here.
Maybe something like:
"Enlightment is David Quinn's Ideal of Perfection, and All Others are Pretenders (or Deluded.)... (a forum to discuss this premise.)

Fare Well.
(I may come back to a respectful dialogue, but I have seen nothing but your personal negativity about "enlightenment" here so far.

To the forum:
Happy "Holly" days! (Had a great 3 day epiphany already... and that in context of the ongoing "estate" of Gnosis.

For easy ref., as I (probably) leave... my site:
http://www.consciousunity.org
My teacher's site (no "worship" involved... I "graduated!"):
http://www.centerforsacredsciences.org/

Namaste'
mikiel

[Sapius]

The folowing was posted earlier today (12/26) in reply to DQ's post to me on 12/25.
It went up and I saw it posted. Now, this eve. it has disappeared.
Draw your own conclusions.

Let's see if this makes it to the boards... again!;.. if not , I am "banned."

Well, in my opinion, you are seriously mistaken. One or two of my posts have also disappeared on the day, and since, the site was moved to another server. I don’t think any of the forum hosts would deliberately delete another’s post. I have known them for quite a few years now; I trust their integrity.

And why are you so worried about being banned?

[mikiel]

The folowing was posted earlier today (12/26) in reply to DQ's post to me on 12/25.
It went up and I saw it posted. Now, this eve. it has disappeared.
Draw your own conclusions.

Let's see if this makes it to the boards... again!;.. if not , I am "banned."

Well, in my opinion, you are seriously mistaken. One or two of my posts have also disappeared on the day, and since, the site was moved to another server. I don’t think any of the forum hosts would deliberately delete another’s post. I have known them for quite a few years now; I trust their integrity.

And why are you so worried about being banned?

I am not at all "worried about being banned." As I said earlier *if* it happens because of David's petty egocentricity and power to get me off his case, then it will be no big loss, as it turns out to be just a cult of his cynical opinion about all the teachers who do not live up to his "perfect Buddha Nature" ideal anyway.

Also I mentioned that: "Luckily, I have been copying posts before posting, cuz my computer will blink out and lose signal when posting sometimes."
It is almost impossible that such a glitch on my end caused the post not to "take", since I got confirmation on the "post successfully completed" screen and then it showed the completed post... I don't really see how it could have been my "signal failure" after the post was posted. And in the context of my "radically honest" confrontation of the (what?) webmaster here, it makes sense that he would hit a "delete" button and make the "problem" disappear.

I obviously don't know David as well as you do. But in all honesty he does seem quite the arrogant egocentric to me with lofty ideals and scathing criticism of teachers as his common mode of expression, tho he obviously has not himself transcended ego and certainly has no clue what true Gnosis/Enlightenment really is.

mikiel

[Shahrazad]

mikiel,

It is almost impossible that such a glitch on my end caused the post not to "take", since I got confirmation on the "post successfully completed" screen and then it showed the completed post... I don't really see how it could have been my "signal failure" after the post was posted. And in the context of my "radically honest" confrontation of the (what?) webmaster here, it makes sense that he would hit a "delete" button and make the "problem" disappear.

There was at least one day about a week ago when all new posts disappeared. I myself made some posts, checked that the posts looked normal, and a couple of hours later, there was nothing. There was no reason why the admins would have wanted to delete those posts, so I'm sure there's an innocent explanation. That was the day that Kevin changed servers, and later on posts could not be submitted at all. So don't take it so personally.

Do you know the date when you made the post that disappeared? Maybe we can sort this out.

-

[Tomas]

The folowing was posted earlier today (12/26) in reply to DQ's post to me on 12/25.
It went up and I saw it posted. Now, this eve. it has disappeared.
Draw your own conclusions.

Let's see if this makes it to the boards... again!;.. if not , I am "banned."

Well, in my opinion, you are seriously mistaken. One or two of my posts have also disappeared on the day, and since, the site was moved to another server. I don’t think any of the forum hosts would deliberately delete another’s post. I have known them for quite a few years now; I trust their integrity.

And why are you so worried about being banned?

I am not at all "worried about being banned." As I said earlier *if* it happens because of David's petty egocentricity and power to get me off his case, then it will be no big loss, as it turns out to be just a cult of his cynical opinion about all the teachers who do not live up to his "perfect Buddha Nature" ideal anyway.

Also I mentioned that: "Luckily, I have been copying posts before posting, cuz my computer will blink out and lose signal when posting sometimes."
It is almost impossible that such a glitch on my end caused the post not to "take", since I got confirmation on the "post successfully completed" screen and then it showed the completed post... I don't really see how it could have been my "signal failure" after the post was posted. And in the context of my "radically honest" confrontation of the (what?) webmaster here, it makes sense that he would hit a "delete" button and make the "problem" disappear.

I obviously don't know David as well as you do. But in all honesty he does seem quite the arrogant egocentric to me with lofty ideals and scathing criticism of teachers as his common mode of expression, tho he obviously has not himself transcended ego and certainly has no clue what true Gnosis/Enlightenment really is.

mikiel

Fawking lighten up already!

What planet are you from?

You blow in here a couple months ago and you are having a hissy fit about nothing. Grow up.

Take David's advice.

The internet is only a few decades old.

So you been visioning on the North Shore on Oahu? Not too shabby, been there many a times.

Geepers, give David a break, they (QRS) don't live online.

ps- Be yourself. Nobody gives a shit that you got a hair up your ass and walked off for three days from your girlfriend. Now, if she knew you were going off by yourself (visioning as you say), for three days, well, all bets are off.

My girlfriend (of 40 years) would be pissed if I wandered away for three days on a pre-planned trip :-(



Tomas (the tank)
Prince of Jerusalem
16 Degree
Scottish Rite Free Mason

.

[Sapius]

I obviously don't know David as well as you do. But in all honesty he does seem quite the arrogant egocentric to me with lofty ideals and scathing criticism of teachers as his common mode of expression, tho he obviously has not himself transcended ego and certainly has no clue what true Gnosis/Enlightenment really is.

Generally, he seems that way to me too, but that does not mean I should act as egocentrically disturbed as you seem to, especially with the ‘ego popping’ and all. I don’t like either of those petty attitudes, but that does not affect my egocentricity in any significant way. One way to look at it is; what seems should simply remain and taken as seems, for there is no way that I could actually and really know any thing else other than my own egocentricity itself.

I think that is what means – ‘I know nothing’, or ‘know thy self to know the world’; this should make one, if not utterly, then quite humble if realized and remembered all the time, making the importance projected on to such egocentrically projected ideas vanish, but not the projection itself. For without that, one isn’t at all.

If I were you, I’d be more concerned about my own egocentricity rather than having an issue with others. Claiming my “ego bubble” has popped is an egocentric claim too. One cannot in any way get rid of the “I” to begin with, and that is 'ego' itself. Even if you claim that there is such a thing as a “Universal Consciousness”, then by definition, there has to necessarily be a split between the “I” and that which is the “not-I”, otherwise neither could be, hence no “Universal Consciousness” at all.

In my opinion, merging, or becoming One with The One is merely an egocentric emotional feeling, (and one should always remember that), which I don’t deny could have profound effects on an ego (the “I”), as in not really being taken in by it’s own centricity, but now operates ex-centrically, (from the outside-in), considering that all else is but a reflection of ME; but necessarily not ME; so essentially the ego, “I”, still remains, and without things being around, not even a Universal Consciousness could realize an “I”. And if the Universal Consciousness does not have an “I”, then it is not Consciousness at all.


But firstly…

Tomas (the tank): Grow up.

Please reflect on this, seriously.

[mikiel]

David,
You didn't reply to my last post. You effectively ducked my response. (Ignore it and maybe it will go away?) Maybe not. I will however bump it one more time in the interest of truth telling about what enlightenment is.

Here is an edited version of the unanswered reply:
---------------
DQ wrote:
"No one here has ever said that it is limited to Buddhism. However, it isn't enough simply to expose the illusory nature of the ego. One also has to expose and eliminate all of the habits and delusions which have supported the illusion over the years, going back to early childhood. These habits and delusions are deeply entrenched in the brain and can't be undone overnight. It involves a long, long process of reversing a lifetime of bad habits.

That is what worries me when you say that you one day "popped" your ego and that's that. It leads me to think that you are not fully aware of what's involved. "

m: One... Who? "...has to expose and eliminate all of the habits and delusions which have supported the illusion over the years,..."
"One" who still sees himself as a separate identity has "work to do" to reach the realization of unity beyond this illusory duality.

When I said that all my personal programs about "personal identiy" "popped", that experience included the "habits and delusions" you speak of.
It is true that they "have supported the illusion over the years, going back to early childhood." My 22yr carreer in pschotherapy has given me an appreciation of how deeply rooted the illusion of "separate self" really is. I regret to inform you that you are still suffering from it.
That you still think of your "self" as the active agent who must purge himself of all lack of "perfection"... this speaks clearly of your own illusion... no matter how "wise" you aspire to be.

You wrote: "That is what worries me when you say that you one day "popped" your ego and that's that. It leads me to think that you are not fully aware of what's involved"

This statement makes me wonder how much of my "awakening story" you have read, either here or on my site.
I have no "attachment" to whether you know my true story of awakining or not. But the truth is (and has been very available to you) that I "sat" for an hour a day for 25 years before the journey that took me to the "breakthrough." That alone was over 9,000 hours of peaceful, blissful transcendence *before* the "final approach" (two months at 8-12 hrs a day) and then the near death experince, very nearly drowning at sea.
My very brief "story" before that is easily found on my website, if you are actually interested."Selflessness" is the short version, and "My Journey to Awakening" fleshes it out a bit more, tho still a quick read.
I really wonder how much more you "think should be... involved" as a lifelong intention toward true spiritual awakeing.

DQ: "Are you now immortal? "

Again "you" Who?" This individual? Of course not! This Consciousness (identical with The Consciousness)... Yes, of course!This is the universal real- "I"-zation (please indulge the word-play) among all who wake up from the ego dream (the illusion.)

DQ: "f there no longer any self or other, then who is doing the compassion and who is receiving it?"

"If you identify with the Awareness alone and not its contents, then what would motivate you to eliminate one piece of content of Awareness and elevate another?"

m: The "motivation" you speak of is egocentric motivation based on ego's mental *concepts about* "content."
"Content" naturally arises in consciousness. There is no "motivation" to change the content, as it is already the *perfect* content for "right now" for "this individual" in all curcumstances. (including new inspirations and changes in intentional focus... for a better world.
The "who" you are inquiring of is the One Consciousness Who is aware of this local, individual perspective, without the illusion of "my awareness" (implying this awareness *of* specific content) or "my consciousness", the "personal agent" or capacity for this local awareness.

DQ: "I'm curious to know if you are married, and if you are, how this "unconditional love" plays out in a marriage situation."

I am reluctant to share such personal info with you because of your predisposition to categorize and judge based on your personal biases about "emotions." Maybe after a certain level of respect is established between us I will share that information, which is common knowledge in my "real life" here......

DQ: "
As I say, it is possible to have a connection to Awareness and yet still retain all the deep roots of the ego hidden beneath the surface. It is easy for a person who believes that he identifies with Awareness to erect mental blocks about his own egotistical behaviour and to rationalize it away when he does perceive it. I see this all the time."

m: Yes it is possible and easy, as you say. This may be your case, which you constantly project onto everyone sharing "enlightenment" here in your forum. I guess you are here to cut everyone down to your own size. I mean this with all due compassion for your obvious suffering and struggle.
I think I will "go" now, as you are so cynical that you will not give true testimony on enlightenment a fair space to air and share and dialogue.
I do believe you should change the site subtitle to something more appropriate to your obvious intent and prejudice here.
Maybe something like:
"Enlightment is David Quinn's Ideal of Perfection, and All Others are Pretenders (or Deluded.)... (a forum to discuss this premise.)

For easy ref., as I (probably) leave... my site:
http://www.consciousunity.org
My teacher's site (no "worship" involved... I "graduated!"):
http://www.centerforsacredsciences.org/
Namaste'
mikiel
----------------
Well, there it is again.
Going... going...
m

[daybrown]

Talk to a Mayan shaman. He'll visit with you every day for a few weeks, geting to know who you are, and if you appear rational and not psychotic, then at the sacred time, in the sacred space, and sacred way, he'll provide you with an entheogenic potion that will shake you out of your narcistic delusions over nite.

Native European witches did the same for millennia until butchered by the Bishops, who understood how their spiritual services exposed the falsities of scripture. Ugarit Shamen, however, living beyond the pale in Finland and the Urals, never gave up the use of Soma, and still perform the same spiritual enlightenment services.

There's no need to sit on your ass for 25 years. But if you wanna do that, that's fine. Whether Peruvian witch with mescaline, Navajo teacher with Peyote, Mayan priest with Pscilocybin, Ugarit shaman with Amanita Muscaria, or Eleusinian Heirophant with the lysergic acids from Claviceps Purpurea, there is always the fear you will discover you are, in fact, insane- and should not be there. In which case meditation until the day of greater sanity, is the only way to go.

But among these other cultures, there is a greater degree of equality because most everyone experienced the presence of the divine in ritual, and there is no need for the authority of a teacher. There is, however, the necessity to pass the wall of fear, knowing that who you really are will be revealed to you.

Alcoholics, for instance, cant handle it, and dont want to know who they are. I dont blame them.

[brokenhead]

But among these other cultures, there is a greater degree of equality because most everyone experienced the presence of the divine in ritual, and there is no need for the authority of a teacher. There is, however, the necessity to pass the wall of fear, knowing that who you really are will be revealed to you.

Amen.

[mikiel]

But among these other cultures, there is a greater degree of equality because most everyone experienced the presence of the divine in ritual, and there is no need for the authority of a teacher. There is, however, the necessity to pass the wall of fear, knowing that who you really are will be revealed to you.

Amen.

My "bump" was to re-direct David's attention to the unfinished business of our (his and my) dialogue on enlightenment. As long as you guys keep posting, he will find it convenient to hide behind your mostly irrelevant (to my post directed to him) replies.

Like before the "bump" it was b.s. about my percieved egocentric "needs", including the need to "grow up"... like maturity is an issue here at my age (62, btw.)
Now it's like, I could have gone on the fast track with psychoactive drugs rather than "sitting on my ass for 25 yrs. Yes, there are as many ways to enlightenment as there are individuals who find it... not that it has ever been hiding... just egos asleep in their own little dreams.
And, yes "there is the... necessity to pass the wall of fear"... as I've already affirmed in "my story" of kicking for hours to stay afloat in the ocean,... my last fear being that I would be eaten alive by sharks.
Now, will you guys STFU and let David respond to the post re-done above?
Thanks!
mikiel

[samadhi]

mikiel,

David isn't going to respond, he's done.

But it's good to have you around. I hope you don't make your hanging around contingent on his response. Surely you already know even if he did respond, it would just be more of the same.

And by the way, psychoactive drugs can show you a lot of things but enlightenment isn't one of them.

[daybrown]

mikiel,

David isn't going to respond, he's done.

But it's good to have you around. I hope you don't make your hanging around contingent on his response. Surely you already know even if he did respond, it would just be more of the same.

And by the way, psychoactive drugs can show you a lot of things but enlightenment isn't one of them.

Mayan, Navajo, Ugarit, and Peruvian spiritual leaders would regard that comment as racist bullshit. Agreed that without spiritual guidance, drugs are often not only useless, but dangerous. But if you look into the anthropology, you see that these powerful compounds were never self administered, and never used outside of the sacred space and time.

You attitude is a result of Christian dogma and group think that has been going on ever since the Bishops began burning witches in the 5th century. Justinian, in his zealotry, pounded the Telesterion into rubble. For damn good reason, the Eleusinian mysteries were well known to produce spiritual enlightenment and destroy the fear of death. Altho, nowadays, the sources of this info is too obscure, and sheeple's minds are so full of media hype.

There is, however, an ongoing effort by Native Europeans, just as Native Americans, to recover ancestral spiritual roots, and I myself have been in ritual with Amanita muscaria with some witches who have moved beyond the fluff bunny stage. Not that there do not remain many who share your opinion.

[samadhi]

db,

Mayan, Navajo, Ugarit, and Peruvian spiritual leaders would regard that comment as racist bullshit.

The comment had nothing to do with race whatsoever.

Agreed that without spiritual guidance, drugs are often not only useless, but dangerous.

Yes, that was my point, at least part of it.

But if you look into the anthropology, you see that these powerful compounds were never self administered, and never used outside of the sacred space and time.

I agree with you that guidance with those kind of drugs would be a big help.

You attitude is a result of Christian dogma and group think that has been going on ever since the Bishops began burning witches in the 5th century. Justinian, in his zealotry, pounded the Telesterion into rubble.

I have nothing against drugs used for spiritual purposes. I just think it is disingenous to imply that a drug is all it takes to be enlightened.

For damn good reason, the Eleusinian mysteries were well known to produce spiritual enlightenment and destroy the fear of death. Altho, nowadays, the sources of this info is too obscure, and sheeple's minds are so full of media hype.

Look, drugs can show you plenty of things but that doesn't mean you don't have to deal with your own stuff. There is no "get out of jail free" card.

There is, however, an ongoing effort by Native Europeans, just as Native Americans, to recover ancestral spiritual roots, and I myself have been in ritual with Amanita muscaria with some witches who have moved beyond the fluff bunny stage. Not that there do not remain many who share your opinion.

I actually thought your post was quite interesting and I agree that recovering ancient traditions is a good thing. I just think you are being misleading when you say taking a drug is all you need. That plainly is not the case.