Never will you be wise or enlightened
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
I've just re-read this thread.
"Average" is still projecting his little "i" out into the world as a general, sweeping you.
Just for fun, I'll go into detail.
On 11/10 'A' said:
"Why will you never be wise or enlightened?
cause everything you think of,
And of everything you do,
Is for yourself
And there isn't one."
But knowing there is no separate self IS enlightenment!
Then on 11/11:
"There is no enlightenment other than the notion of enlightenment.
You do not have an ego, you do not have any delusions, you are only possessed by the notion of ego, and the notion of delusion.
You do not have wisdom either, you are only possessed by the notion of wisdom. But don't worry, it will pass."
Again, that the one who "has an ego" is the illusion of personal identity... likewise the "possessor" of wisdom. The irony is that this applies also to the "possessor" of the "notion of enlightenemnt," but the statement, "There is no enlightenment other nan the notion of enlightenment" is blatently false.
Seems that "Average" is a bit below average in appreciation of both the long history of Eastern (classical) enlightenment and the Western version, "non-dual awareness" in which Western philosophy and empirical science are *included* in the overall paradigm of Reality along with Eastern transcendental consciousness.
Yes, Average, unlike Santa Clause, Enlightenment is real and true, and you can pick from the Eastern or Western Version... or both as two aspects of One Reality. (Pick you Gnosis!)
And "I" statements would bail you out (radical honesty on your perspective) every time over your broad strokes of "you" which sooo presumptious!
mikiel
"Average" is still projecting his little "i" out into the world as a general, sweeping you.
Just for fun, I'll go into detail.
On 11/10 'A' said:
"Why will you never be wise or enlightened?
cause everything you think of,
And of everything you do,
Is for yourself
And there isn't one."
But knowing there is no separate self IS enlightenment!
Then on 11/11:
"There is no enlightenment other than the notion of enlightenment.
You do not have an ego, you do not have any delusions, you are only possessed by the notion of ego, and the notion of delusion.
You do not have wisdom either, you are only possessed by the notion of wisdom. But don't worry, it will pass."
Again, that the one who "has an ego" is the illusion of personal identity... likewise the "possessor" of wisdom. The irony is that this applies also to the "possessor" of the "notion of enlightenemnt," but the statement, "There is no enlightenment other nan the notion of enlightenment" is blatently false.
Seems that "Average" is a bit below average in appreciation of both the long history of Eastern (classical) enlightenment and the Western version, "non-dual awareness" in which Western philosophy and empirical science are *included* in the overall paradigm of Reality along with Eastern transcendental consciousness.
Yes, Average, unlike Santa Clause, Enlightenment is real and true, and you can pick from the Eastern or Western Version... or both as two aspects of One Reality. (Pick you Gnosis!)
And "I" statements would bail you out (radical honesty on your perspective) every time over your broad strokes of "you" which sooo presumptious!
mikiel
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Enlightenment is a myth that some people subscribe to in order to reach for something they believe has value --- but just like Christian salvation or any other lie, it is futile, since there is nothing to be saved from, and there is nothing that gets saved.
enlightenment and santa claus both exist in the same dimension, the imaginary one.
There is nothing to achieve, because there is nothing lacking.
enlightenment and santa claus both exist in the same dimension, the imaginary one.
I've done away with paths.ZenMuadDib wrote:If you think Nirvana and Heaven are anything more than constructed myths of human religion, then you must not be very far along whatever path you claim to be on.
There is nothing to achieve, because there is nothing lacking.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Agreed.average wrote:Enlightenment is a myth that some people subscribe to in order to reach for something they believe has value --- but just like Christian salvation or any other lie, it is futile, since there is nothing to be saved from, and there is nothing that gets saved.
enlightenment and santa claus both exist in the same dimension, the imaginary one.
You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so. How do you know there is nothing lacking? The only way to make this judgment is based on your own values. The quest for enlightenment would have you thinking you were abandoning all values.average wrote:I've done away with paths.
There is nothing to achieve, because there is nothing lacking.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
I can and I did. There is no reason for them.Neil wrote:You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so.
A lack is a projection of a desire. Since I am not possessed by any profound desires I do not lack anything spiritually, metaphysically, philosophically, existentially, etc...
How do you know there is nothing lacking?
I'm speaking for myself here.The only way to make this judgment is based on your own values. The quest for enlightenment would have you thinking you were abandoning all values.
If you want to be lacking something, that is up to you.
Last edited by average on Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Why are you still alive? Why are you posting on this forum? Obviously you still value your survival and posting here, which are both paths.average wrote:I can and I did. There is no reason for them.Neil wrote:You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Neil Melnyk wrote:Why are you still alive? Why are you posting on this forum? Obviously you still value your survival and posting here, which are both paths.average wrote:I can and I did. There is no reason for them.Neil wrote:You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so.
Just because I am able to do something, doesn't mean I value it. Likewise, just because I value something doesn't mean I can do it.
And when I say I have no Path, I mean to say I don't subscribe to any philosophy or spiritual tradition; I am no longer a seeker. There is no destination, so no path is required.
Posting on a forum is not a path to me, anymore than taking a shit or blinking are paths.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
There are two basic ways to eliminate lack - either through eliminating the root cause of lack (delusion) by heightening and deepening one's consciousness, or by becoming less and less conscious until the feeling of lack no longer arises. By fully opening one's eyes or shutting them completely.
The first path is one that hardly anyone embarks upon. The second one is all-too-common. Average, even.
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The first path is one that hardly anyone embarks upon. The second one is all-too-common. Average, even.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
When desiring nothing, one desires all and excludes nothing. Life is desire driven, one can only be exclusive about it, or not.average wrote:
A lack is a projection of a desire. Since I am not possessed by any profound desires I do not lack anything spiritually, metaphysically, philosophically, existentially, etc...
Average, how would you describe the impact on your life your realization had when it came?
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
David,
Maybe because it works well, ever stopped to think of that?The first path is one that hardly anyone embarks upon. The second one is all-too-common.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Average how do you experience the self. Is there a unified you, or is it a collection of mental processes.Average: You can not enter the gates of nirvana because the gates are imaginary, just like you.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Just a bit.Shahrazad wrote:David,
Maybe because it works well, ever stopped to think of that?The first path is one that hardly anyone embarks upon. The second one is all-too-common.
It basically comes down to these people valuing happiness or the avoidance of pain far more highly than developing their consciousness and becoming wise. Blocking out things is a far easier way to avoid pain than eliminating its roots.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
And why would this be such a terrible thing for someone whose highest priority is to live a happy, pain-free life?Blocking out things is a far easier way to avoid pain than eliminating its roots.
You assume that because you would put wisdom as the number one priority, all other people should.
I may be just as appalled that you would prefer wisdom over a pain-free life, than you are that I would not.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
pleasantly unpleasant.Diebert van Rhijn wrote:Average, how would you describe the impact on your life your realization had when it came?
maestro wrote:Average how do you experience the self. Is there a unified you, or is it a collection of mental processes.
self is experience.
I don't identify with any particular thing that is experienced -- that would be pointless.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Shahrazad wrote:And why would this be such a terrible thing for someone whose highest priority is to live a happy, pain-free life?Blocking out things is a far easier way to avoid pain than eliminating its roots.
Well, the trouble with trying to block out things is that the source of pain (the ego) still exists inside you. Blocking out is just a band-aid remedy to buy some temporarily relief. When it doesn't work, people quickly become angry and violent and end up inflicting even more pain upon the world, causing people to try and block out things even more. And so the samsaric wheel continues to turn.
These people are like ticking time-bombs wrapped up in nice shiny paper. The shiny paper makes them look cheerful and harmless, but then suddenly they explode. Hence the world around us.
People are free to do what they want. I can only encourage.You assume that because you would put wisdom as the number one priority, all other people should.
True. What is considered appalling is in the eye of the beholder.I may be just as appalled that you would prefer wisdom over a pain-free life, than you are that I would not.
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Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
David,
OK, as long as you realize that for many people, this "blocking out" will bring permanent relief of many forms of suffering. Some forms they may still have to endure temporarily.Well, the trouble with trying to block out things is that the source of pain (the ego) still exists inside you. Blocking out is just a band-aid remedy to buy some temporarily relief. When it doesn't work, people quickly become angry and violent and end up inflicting even more pain upon the world, causing people to try and block out things even more. And so the samsaric wheel continues to turn.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
But then is there an I? If you do not identify with a particular experience, when who is the I who is not identifying with any experience.average wrote:self is experience.
I don't identify with any particular thing that is experienced -- that would be pointless.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Average,average wrote:Enlightenment is a myth that some people subscribe to in order to reach for something they believe has value --- but just like Christian salvation or any other lie, it is futile, since there is nothing to be saved from, and there is nothing that gets saved.
enlightenment and santa claus both exist in the same dimension, the imaginary one.
ZenMuadDib wrote:If you think Nirvana and Heaven are anything more than constructed myths of human religion, then you must not be very far along whatever path you claim to be on.
The common egocentric state (unenlightened) is the illusion of separate self.... "I'm in this bubble of 'me', and the world is out there, 'not me.'
My direct experience of this "bubble popping" (a specific moment in '94) was immediate and total freedom from the former illusion, which afflicts almost all mankind.
It is further described in my "Liberation" thread here.
Call it what you will, but it is total transformation from the slavery to all desires and attachments to a absolute sense of oneness with What Is, no more "me/not me" duality.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Fact: I am part of something and separate from other parts. You use dubious metaphysics to arrive at this religious believe that you don't exist, and it comes back to "when life rejects you, reject life".mikiel wrote:The common egocentric state (unenlightened) is the illusion of separate self.... "I'm in this bubble of 'me', and the world is out there, 'not me.'
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
The self is your idea, so, in the end, its up to you how to define it.maestro wrote:But then is there an I? If you do not identify with a particular experience, when who is the I who is not identifying with any experience.
There is no unenlightened and enlightened mode of thinking about self, they are one and the same.mikiel wrote:Average,
The common egocentric state (unenlightened) is the illusion of separate self.... "I'm in this bubble of 'me', and the world is out there, 'not me.'
My direct experience of this "bubble popping" (a specific moment in '94) was immediate and total freedom from the former illusion, which afflicts almost all mankind.
It is further described in my "Liberation" thread here.
Call it what you will, but it is total transformation from the slavery to all desires and attachments to a absolute sense of oneness with What Is, no more "me/not me" duality.
There is no problem regarding self, or point of view.
There is no way one ought to view self, or the world.
The most difficult spiritual problem man faces, is the fact that there isn't one.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Who is the one who will do the defining, and whose idea is the self.average wrote: The self is your idea, so, in the end, its up to you how to define it.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
maestro wrote:Who is the one who will do the defining, and whose idea is the self.average wrote: The self is your idea, so, in the end, its up to you how to define it.
up to you.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Who is the you upto which it is. Please be precise.average wrote:up to you.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Average:
------------
"There is no unenlightened and enlightened mode of thinking about self, they are one and the same.
There is no problem regarding self, or point of view.
There is no way one ought to view self, or the world.
The most difficult spiritual problem man faces, is the fact that there isn't one."
-------------
You really *are* out of touch with reality. Look around. There is suffering everywhere. Man's inhumanity to man.... obvious cruely and atrocity. Wars. "Holy Wars" for "godsake!" Abject stupidity. Egocentricity without a clue about anything resembling universal love, higher intelligence, or omnipresence of consciousness as the same "Identity" in all forms.... not the concept or belief which is your persistent myopia, but the direct, immediate gnosis in unity consciousness, transcending duality, all the polarities that manifest "the world."
Your comments above are complete nonsense, euphemisms in total denial of all suffering in the world. Enlightenment, as above, is the cure.
If you say, "Oh, but there is no disease, etc, as above!".... Well I've had a fairly successful career dealing frequently with delusional level denial like yours, but I'm fairly expensive, and this is not the place for it.
mikiel
------------
"There is no unenlightened and enlightened mode of thinking about self, they are one and the same.
There is no problem regarding self, or point of view.
There is no way one ought to view self, or the world.
The most difficult spiritual problem man faces, is the fact that there isn't one."
-------------
You really *are* out of touch with reality. Look around. There is suffering everywhere. Man's inhumanity to man.... obvious cruely and atrocity. Wars. "Holy Wars" for "godsake!" Abject stupidity. Egocentricity without a clue about anything resembling universal love, higher intelligence, or omnipresence of consciousness as the same "Identity" in all forms.... not the concept or belief which is your persistent myopia, but the direct, immediate gnosis in unity consciousness, transcending duality, all the polarities that manifest "the world."
Your comments above are complete nonsense, euphemisms in total denial of all suffering in the world. Enlightenment, as above, is the cure.
If you say, "Oh, but there is no disease, etc, as above!".... Well I've had a fairly successful career dealing frequently with delusional level denial like yours, but I'm fairly expensive, and this is not the place for it.
mikiel
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
You are essentially asking: who am I?maestro wrote:Who is the you up to which it is. Please be precise.
I can't answer it for you, its up to you.
I never denied suffering. Its all very real and natural.mikiel wrote:Average:
------------
"There is no unenlightened and enlightened mode of thinking about self, they are one and the same.
There is no problem regarding self, or point of view.
There is no way one ought to view self, or the world.
The most difficult spiritual problem man faces, is the fact that there isn't one."
-------------
You really *are* out of touch with reality. Look around. There is suffering everywhere. Man's inhumanity to man.... obvious cruely and atrocity. Wars. "Holy Wars" for "godsake!" Abject stupidity.
Egocentricity without a clue about anything resembling universal love, higher intelligence, or omnipresence of consciousness as the same "Identity" in all forms.... not the concept or belief which is your persistent myopia, but the direct, immediate gnosis in unity consciousness, transcending duality, all the polarities that manifest "the world."
Your comments above are complete nonsense, euphemisms in total denial of all suffering in the world. Enlightenment, as above, is the cure.
If you say, "Oh, but there is no disease, etc, as above!".... Well I've had a fairly successful career dealing frequently with delusional level denial like yours, but I'm fairly expensive, and this is not the place for it.
mikiel
In fact the idea of Enlightenment as it is typically understood is another form of suffering. It presents man with another goal to attain, thus another thing to desire, which implies he is lacking something, thus he isn't complete, he isn't free.
As long as the idea of Enlightenment is pursued, it won't be attained.
Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself...and to eliminate the ego one must succeed in the difficult task of understanding that it does not exist except as a notion.
Re: Never will you be wise or enlightened
Ave:
"I never denied suffering. Its all very real and natural.
In fact the idea of Enlightenment as it is typically understood is another form of suffering. It presents man with another goal to attain, thus another thing to desire, which implies he is lacking something, thus he isn't complete, he isn't free.
As long as the idea of Enlightenment is pursued, it won't be attained.
Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself...and to eliminate the ego one must succeed in the difficult task of understanding that it does not exist except as a notion."
For openers, suffering is not "natural" in the realm of enlightened homosapiens, tho it may be in the "natural world" of survival of the fittest. (At least the evolution beyond egocentricity in exceptional cases points the way beyond the law of the jungle.)
My experience is that humans not only have the potential to transcend this level of intentional, instinctictive perpetuation of suffering, but once awake, we are inspired to live in a way to do the least harm... to inflict minimal suffering.
As I said, tho you were not hearing it, I am not speaking of the *idea of enlightenment* but enlightenment itself... not the concept which hangs you up. I am beginning to see that you have no experiential context for knowing the difference since you appear to "live" only in the world of concepts and ideas with no grasp of reality beyond your own apparent solipsism.
"Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself"
Your ignorance is astounding! Enlightenment is transcendence of ego. You have obviously no grasp of this truth, as your concept of enlightenment is in the same boat with your concept of ego, and it is **all** in your head with no reality check as in even a preview of transcendence of your personal ego, so stuffed with these concepts.
No room left for awakening.
You are a progogramed robot. I have no idea how your patethic life situation conditioned to believe there is no transcendence of the ego-full-of-concepts which rules your life.
Just a tip. It may be just a seed which germinates after you despair of this bullshit your head is buried in. Maybe not in your lifetime.
In the real world, this is called transpersonal psychology. Also spiritual teaching... which you totally deny... its all bullshit to you.
As I said, this is expensive when people are ready for transpersonal counseling. On the other hand it's free when one finds their way to my Center for Conscious Unity. Just the practical difference between "counseling" and willingness to e open to spiritual Truth... a foreign concept to you, obviously.
Well, I have a clear sense that your conceptual framework has no openness for what I just said, and Ihave no need to pursue it.
Good luck on getting over yourself (robot full of programing). I'm done. No inclination that you can hear me.
mikiel
m
"I never denied suffering. Its all very real and natural.
In fact the idea of Enlightenment as it is typically understood is another form of suffering. It presents man with another goal to attain, thus another thing to desire, which implies he is lacking something, thus he isn't complete, he isn't free.
As long as the idea of Enlightenment is pursued, it won't be attained.
Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself...and to eliminate the ego one must succeed in the difficult task of understanding that it does not exist except as a notion."
For openers, suffering is not "natural" in the realm of enlightened homosapiens, tho it may be in the "natural world" of survival of the fittest. (At least the evolution beyond egocentricity in exceptional cases points the way beyond the law of the jungle.)
My experience is that humans not only have the potential to transcend this level of intentional, instinctictive perpetuation of suffering, but once awake, we are inspired to live in a way to do the least harm... to inflict minimal suffering.
As I said, tho you were not hearing it, I am not speaking of the *idea of enlightenment* but enlightenment itself... not the concept which hangs you up. I am beginning to see that you have no experiential context for knowing the difference since you appear to "live" only in the world of concepts and ideas with no grasp of reality beyond your own apparent solipsism.
"Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself"
Your ignorance is astounding! Enlightenment is transcendence of ego. You have obviously no grasp of this truth, as your concept of enlightenment is in the same boat with your concept of ego, and it is **all** in your head with no reality check as in even a preview of transcendence of your personal ego, so stuffed with these concepts.
No room left for awakening.
You are a progogramed robot. I have no idea how your patethic life situation conditioned to believe there is no transcendence of the ego-full-of-concepts which rules your life.
Just a tip. It may be just a seed which germinates after you despair of this bullshit your head is buried in. Maybe not in your lifetime.
In the real world, this is called transpersonal psychology. Also spiritual teaching... which you totally deny... its all bullshit to you.
As I said, this is expensive when people are ready for transpersonal counseling. On the other hand it's free when one finds their way to my Center for Conscious Unity. Just the practical difference between "counseling" and willingness to e open to spiritual Truth... a foreign concept to you, obviously.
Well, I have a clear sense that your conceptual framework has no openness for what I just said, and Ihave no need to pursue it.
Good luck on getting over yourself (robot full of programing). I'm done. No inclination that you can hear me.
mikiel
m