Never will you be wise or enlightened

[mikiel]

I've just re-read this thread.
"Average" is still projecting his little "i" out into the world as a general, sweeping you.
Just for fun, I'll go into detail.

On 11/10 'A' said:
"Why will you never be wise or enlightened?
cause everything you think of,
And of everything you do,
Is for yourself
And there isn't one."

But knowing there is no separate self IS enlightenment!

Then on 11/11:
"There is no enlightenment other than the notion of enlightenment.
You do not have an ego, you do not have any delusions, you are only possessed by the notion of ego, and the notion of delusion.
You do not have wisdom either, you are only possessed by the notion of wisdom. But don't worry, it will pass."

Again, that the one who "has an ego" is the illusion of personal identity... likewise the "possessor" of wisdom. The irony is that this applies also to the "possessor" of the "notion of enlightenemnt," but the statement, "There is no enlightenment other nan the notion of enlightenment" is blatently false.

Seems that "Average" is a bit below average in appreciation of both the long history of Eastern (classical) enlightenment and the Western version, "non-dual awareness" in which Western philosophy and empirical science are *included* in the overall paradigm of Reality along with Eastern transcendental consciousness.

Yes, Average, unlike Santa Clause, Enlightenment is real and true, and you can pick from the Eastern or Western Version... or both as two aspects of One Reality. (Pick you Gnosis!)

And "I" statements would bail you out (radical honesty on your perspective) every time over your broad strokes of "you" which sooo presumptious!
mikiel

[average]

Enlightenment is a myth that some people subscribe to in order to reach for something they believe has value --- but just like Christian salvation or any other lie, it is futile, since there is nothing to be saved from, and there is nothing that gets saved.

enlightenment and santa claus both exist in the same dimension, the imaginary one.

If you think Nirvana and Heaven are anything more than constructed myths of human religion, then you must not be very far along whatever path you claim to be on.

I've done away with paths.
There is nothing to achieve, because there is nothing lacking.

[Imadrongo]

Enlightenment is a myth that some people subscribe to in order to reach for something they believe has value --- but just like Christian salvation or any other lie, it is futile, since there is nothing to be saved from, and there is nothing that gets saved.

enlightenment and santa claus both exist in the same dimension, the imaginary one.

Agreed.

I've done away with paths.
There is nothing to achieve, because there is nothing lacking.

You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so. How do you know there is nothing lacking? The only way to make this judgment is based on your own values. The quest for enlightenment would have you thinking you were abandoning all values.

[average]

You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so.

I can and I did. There is no reason for them.

How do you know there is nothing lacking?

A lack is a projection of a desire. Since I am not possessed by any profound desires I do not lack anything spiritually, metaphysically, philosophically, existentially, etc...

The only way to make this judgment is based on your own values. The quest for enlightenment would have you thinking you were abandoning all values.

I'm speaking for myself here.
If you want to be lacking something, that is up to you.

[Imadrongo]

You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so.

I can and I did. There is no reason for them.

Why are you still alive? Why are you posting on this forum? Obviously you still value your survival and posting here, which are both paths.

[average]

You can't completely do away with paths, and nor is there any reason to do so.

I can and I did. There is no reason for them.

Why are you still alive? Why are you posting on this forum? Obviously you still value your survival and posting here, which are both paths.

Just because I am able to do something, doesn't mean I value it. Likewise, just because I value something doesn't mean I can do it.

And when I say I have no Path, I mean to say I don't subscribe to any philosophy or spiritual tradition; I am no longer a seeker. There is no destination, so no path is required.

Posting on a forum is not a path to me, anymore than taking a shit or blinking are paths.

[David Quinn]

There are two basic ways to eliminate lack - either through eliminating the root cause of lack (delusion) by heightening and deepening one's consciousness, or by becoming less and less conscious until the feeling of lack no longer arises. By fully opening one's eyes or shutting them completely.

The first path is one that hardly anyone embarks upon. The second one is all-too-common. Average, even.

-

[Diebert van Rhijn]

A lack is a projection of a desire. Since I am not possessed by any profound desires I do not lack anything spiritually, metaphysically, philosophically, existentially, etc...

When desiring nothing, one desires all and excludes nothing. Life is desire driven, one can only be exclusive about it, or not.

Average, how would you describe the impact on your life your realization had when it came?

[Shahrazad]

David,

The first path is one that hardly anyone embarks upon. The second one is all-too-common.

Maybe because it works well, ever stopped to think of that?

[maestro]

Average: You can not enter the gates of nirvana because the gates are imaginary, just like you.

Average how do you experience the self. Is there a unified you, or is it a collection of mental processes.

[David Quinn]

David,

The first path is one that hardly anyone embarks upon. The second one is all-too-common.

Maybe because it works well, ever stopped to think of that?

Just a bit.

It basically comes down to these people valuing happiness or the avoidance of pain far more highly than developing their consciousness and becoming wise. Blocking out things is a far easier way to avoid pain than eliminating its roots.

-

[Shahrazad]

Blocking out things is a far easier way to avoid pain than eliminating its roots.

And why would this be such a terrible thing for someone whose highest priority is to live a happy, pain-free life?

You assume that because you would put wisdom as the number one priority, all other people should.

I may be just as appalled that you would prefer wisdom over a pain-free life, than you are that I would not.

-

[average]

Average, how would you describe the impact on your life your realization had when it came?

pleasantly unpleasant.

Average how do you experience the self. Is there a unified you, or is it a collection of mental processes.

self is experience.
I don't identify with any particular thing that is experienced -- that would be pointless.

[David Quinn]

Blocking out things is a far easier way to avoid pain than eliminating its roots.

And why would this be such a terrible thing for someone whose highest priority is to live a happy, pain-free life?

Well, the trouble with trying to block out things is that the source of pain (the ego) still exists inside you. Blocking out is just a band-aid remedy to buy some temporarily relief. When it doesn't work, people quickly become angry and violent and end up inflicting even more pain upon the world, causing people to try and block out things even more. And so the samsaric wheel continues to turn.

These people are like ticking time-bombs wrapped up in nice shiny paper. The shiny paper makes them look cheerful and harmless, but then suddenly they explode. Hence the world around us.

You assume that because you would put wisdom as the number one priority, all other people should.

People are free to do what they want. I can only encourage.

I may be just as appalled that you would prefer wisdom over a pain-free life, than you are that I would not.

True. What is considered appalling is in the eye of the beholder.

-

[Shahrazad]

David,

Well, the trouble with trying to block out things is that the source of pain (the ego) still exists inside you. Blocking out is just a band-aid remedy to buy some temporarily relief. When it doesn't work, people quickly become angry and violent and end up inflicting even more pain upon the world, causing people to try and block out things even more. And so the samsaric wheel continues to turn.

OK, as long as you realize that for many people, this "blocking out" will bring permanent relief of many forms of suffering. Some forms they may still have to endure temporarily.

[maestro]

self is experience.
I don't identify with any particular thing that is experienced -- that would be pointless.

But then is there an I? If you do not identify with a particular experience, when who is the I who is not identifying with any experience.

[mikiel]

Enlightenment is a myth that some people subscribe to in order to reach for something they believe has value --- but just like Christian salvation or any other lie, it is futile, since there is nothing to be saved from, and there is nothing that gets saved.

enlightenment and santa claus both exist in the same dimension, the imaginary one.

If you think Nirvana and Heaven are anything more than constructed myths of human religion, then you must not be very far along whatever path you claim to be on.

Average,
The common egocentric state (unenlightened) is the illusion of separate self.... "I'm in this bubble of 'me', and the world is out there, 'not me.'
My direct experience of this "bubble popping" (a specific moment in '94) was immediate and total freedom from the former illusion, which afflicts almost all mankind.
It is further described in my "Liberation" thread here.
Call it what you will, but it is total transformation from the slavery to all desires and attachments to a absolute sense of oneness with What Is, no more "me/not me" duality.

[Imadrongo]

The common egocentric state (unenlightened) is the illusion of separate self.... "I'm in this bubble of 'me', and the world is out there, 'not me.'

Fact: I am part of something and separate from other parts. You use dubious metaphysics to arrive at this religious believe that you don't exist, and it comes back to "when life rejects you, reject life".

[average]

But then is there an I? If you do not identify with a particular experience, when who is the I who is not identifying with any experience.

The self is your idea, so, in the end, its up to you how to define it.

Average,
The common egocentric state (unenlightened) is the illusion of separate self.... "I'm in this bubble of 'me', and the world is out there, 'not me.'
My direct experience of this "bubble popping" (a specific moment in '94) was immediate and total freedom from the former illusion, which afflicts almost all mankind.
It is further described in my "Liberation" thread here.
Call it what you will, but it is total transformation from the slavery to all desires and attachments to a absolute sense of oneness with What Is, no more "me/not me" duality.

There is no unenlightened and enlightened mode of thinking about self, they are one and the same.
There is no problem regarding self, or point of view.
There is no way one ought to view self, or the world.

The most difficult spiritual problem man faces, is the fact that there isn't one.

[maestro]

The self is your idea, so, in the end, its up to you how to define it.

Who is the one who will do the defining, and whose idea is the self.

[average]

The self is your idea, so, in the end, its up to you how to define it.

Who is the one who will do the defining, and whose idea is the self.

up to you.

[maestro]

up to you.

Who is the you upto which it is. Please be precise.

[mikiel]

Average:
------------
"There is no unenlightened and enlightened mode of thinking about self, they are one and the same.
There is no problem regarding self, or point of view.
There is no way one ought to view self, or the world.

The most difficult spiritual problem man faces, is the fact that there isn't one."
-------------
You really *are* out of touch with reality. Look around. There is suffering everywhere. Man's inhumanity to man.... obvious cruely and atrocity. Wars. "Holy Wars" for "godsake!" Abject stupidity. Egocentricity without a clue about anything resembling universal love, higher intelligence, or omnipresence of consciousness as the same "Identity" in all forms.... not the concept or belief which is your persistent myopia, but the direct, immediate gnosis in unity consciousness, transcending duality, all the polarities that manifest "the world."

Your comments above are complete nonsense, euphemisms in total denial of all suffering in the world. Enlightenment, as above, is the cure.
If you say, "Oh, but there is no disease, etc, as above!".... Well I've had a fairly successful career dealing frequently with delusional level denial like yours, but I'm fairly expensive, and this is not the place for it.

mikiel

[average]

Who is the you up to which it is. Please be precise.

You are essentially asking: who am I?

I can't answer it for you, its up to you.

Average:
------------
"There is no unenlightened and enlightened mode of thinking about self, they are one and the same.
There is no problem regarding self, or point of view.
There is no way one ought to view self, or the world.

The most difficult spiritual problem man faces, is the fact that there isn't one."
-------------
You really *are* out of touch with reality. Look around. There is suffering everywhere. Man's inhumanity to man.... obvious cruely and atrocity. Wars. "Holy Wars" for "godsake!" Abject stupidity.

Egocentricity without a clue about anything resembling universal love, higher intelligence, or omnipresence of consciousness as the same "Identity" in all forms.... not the concept or belief which is your persistent myopia, but the direct, immediate gnosis in unity consciousness, transcending duality, all the polarities that manifest "the world."

Your comments above are complete nonsense, euphemisms in total denial of all suffering in the world. Enlightenment, as above, is the cure.
If you say, "Oh, but there is no disease, etc, as above!".... Well I've had a fairly successful career dealing frequently with delusional level denial like yours, but I'm fairly expensive, and this is not the place for it.

mikiel

I never denied suffering. Its all very real and natural.

In fact the idea of Enlightenment as it is typically understood is another form of suffering. It presents man with another goal to attain, thus another thing to desire, which implies he is lacking something, thus he isn't complete, he isn't free.

As long as the idea of Enlightenment is pursued, it won't be attained.
Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself...and to eliminate the ego one must succeed in the difficult task of understanding that it does not exist except as a notion.

[mikiel]

Ave:
"I never denied suffering. Its all very real and natural.

In fact the idea of Enlightenment as it is typically understood is another form of suffering. It presents man with another goal to attain, thus another thing to desire, which implies he is lacking something, thus he isn't complete, he isn't free.

As long as the idea of Enlightenment is pursued, it won't be attained.
Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself...and to eliminate the ego one must succeed in the difficult task of understanding that it does not exist except as a notion."

For openers, suffering is not "natural" in the realm of enlightened homosapiens, tho it may be in the "natural world" of survival of the fittest. (At least the evolution beyond egocentricity in exceptional cases points the way beyond the law of the jungle.)

My experience is that humans not only have the potential to transcend this level of intentional, instinctictive perpetuation of suffering, but once awake, we are inspired to live in a way to do the least harm... to inflict minimal suffering.

As I said, tho you were not hearing it, I am not speaking of the *idea of enlightenment* but enlightenment itself... not the concept which hangs you up. I am beginning to see that you have no experiential context for knowing the difference since you appear to "live" only in the world of concepts and ideas with no grasp of reality beyond your own apparent solipsism.

"Enlightenment is essentially the same as Ego itself"

Your ignorance is astounding! Enlightenment is transcendence of ego. You have obviously no grasp of this truth, as your concept of enlightenment is in the same boat with your concept of ego, and it is **all** in your head with no reality check as in even a preview of transcendence of your personal ego, so stuffed with these concepts.
No room left for awakening.
You are a progogramed robot. I have no idea how your patethic life situation conditioned to believe there is no transcendence of the ego-full-of-concepts which rules your life.
Just a tip. It may be just a seed which germinates after you despair of this bullshit your head is buried in. Maybe not in your lifetime.

In the real world, this is called transpersonal psychology. Also spiritual teaching... which you totally deny... its all bullshit to you.
As I said, this is expensive when people are ready for transpersonal counseling. On the other hand it's free when one finds their way to my Center for Conscious Unity. Just the practical difference between "counseling" and willingness to e open to spiritual Truth... a foreign concept to you, obviously.

Well, I have a clear sense that your conceptual framework has no openness for what I just said, and Ihave no need to pursue it.
Good luck on getting over yourself (robot full of programing). I'm done. No inclination that you can hear me.
mikiel
m