Drinking and Thinking

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

[To be honest, my first response was drunken, although to be honest a second time, I'm not really sure how much influence alcohol had to do with it.

It is confounding to me how many people get into the combination of drinking and philosophy, so I would like to explore possible reasons for it. Alcohol is known to impair brain function, especially immediately after consumption of larger quantities of alcohol - so it seems to be quite contrary to thinking. Perhaps alcohol slows the brain down enough to not care so much about the minutia of daily living and give it a chance to realize the bigger picture, but then the alcohol blears the intellectual vision.

I have a friend who I generally respect, but the first time I spoke with him when he was drunk, I noticed that after drinking he is not up to his usual standard of behavior. The next time I spoke with him when he was drunk, his behavior caused me to not want to speak with him when he is drunk ever again. I still think he's cool when he's sober, and the sober version of this friend would never have done that - but I wonder about the mechanics of the difference, especially since he seems to regret the behavior i found offensive). A mutual friend says he is more like his real self after he has been drinking and enjoys his company in that state, so I recognize that a particular mental state is just a matter of preference. I wonder at the friend though in that he must prefer the drunken state at least some of the time or I suspect he would not do that.

Various people have various responses to alcohol, but most experience a change in mental state with alcohol, and nearly all experience a change during the drunken state (exceptions limited to dry drunks). Some continually regret some of their behavior - or maybe all of their behavior - in the intoxicated state, yet repeat the procedure. Others just relax or loosen up, some feel more creative or ambitious - I have been told that I get really normal when I'm drunk - whatever they mean by that (and it has been years since the last time i got drunk).

It is illogical to think that it takes a mind-altering substance to get a person to be more like they really are, but it could follow that one would take a mind-altering substance to be more like they would like to be. It just seems strange that people would repeatedly take a mind altering substance to be a way they regret later. Perhaps they enjoy the feeling when they are in that state to the degree that they are willing to sacrifice their best sober feeling (people with repeated hangovers are probably the most concrete example of this, although my intended meaning was to address the emotional portion of the brain - including regret).

Theories/experiences?

[xpsyuvz]

Alcohol seems to diminish my problem solving abilities. So I’m thinking if philosophers do have a tendency to drink it may be more for a complimentary reason – where it gives them another (maybe feeling/sensations) state of mind to experience rather than their normal thinking mode -- where it’s not intended to make them think better, but just give them a bit of variety and maybe less boring life.

From my experience, after spending a few years dealing with philosophy, it’s hard to find new problems/topics that are also interesting to explore. So, if a person thinks they have most of their philosophical questions solved, then maybe eventually there’s a natural tendency to want to explore different realms of life a bit? (…BTW, I do value hedonism highly – but as to what will make a person the most satisfied may require deeper thought and discipline…)

[average]

Simple, alcohol gets you drunk, being drunk is a form of escapism.
Philosophy gets you thinking abstractly about random stuff, a form of escapism...

[Trevor Salyzyn]

Average, you blamed me moments ago for making vague blanket statements. (Even after I point this out, I'm going to bet that the irony will continue to elude you.)

[average]

Average, you blamed me moments ago for making vague blanket statements. (Even after I point this out, I'm going to bet that the irony will continue to elude you.)

Yes, because you were.
A simple question like the one in this thread deserves a simple answer. Its elementary.

[Trevor Salyzyn]

I predicted you'd miss the irony, and I was right. You have absolutely no insight. Your inability to self-criticize has made you foolish.

In the case of "what philosophy has done for the world", saying "pretty much everything" is a complete, accurate, and specific answer. It has literally affected all of human thought. Making a list is fucking retarded, because the list would include everything humans have ever thought, ever. In this case, calling alcoholism and philosophy escapism is an incomplete answer. Not everyone drinks to escape, so that answer is insufficient; and good philosophers study reality, so calling them escapist is downright false. Escapism is an attempt to evade reality, but directly confronting it is the polar opposite of that. If you must be pedantic and say that they are escaping from something, they are trying to escape from errors, delusions, mistakes, and other false thoughts.

[Laird]

The main reason that I drink is that it gives me pleasure - as Ataraxia put it: hedonism. Secondary reasons for drinking are that it uninhibits me (which is probably a form of, as average put it, escapism - escape from normal critical thought processes) and that it increases my sociability and assertiveness (which unfortunately at times transmutes into aggression).

The main reason that I philosophise is because the whole thing is so intriguing - just how in eternity did I end up alive and what in the world am I supposed to be doing now that I am alive?

My drinking has nothing to do with my philosophising, except that drinking has an effect on my thought processes. The main advantage of my inebriated thinking is that it is more lateral and that I make different connections between different ideas and issues. The main disadvantage of my inebriated thinking is that it sometimes becomes so focussed on one idea that I cannot see more plausible ideas (this sometimes manifests as inability to remember simple concepts). I think that this is the main reason why drunkards are seen as irrational - they become fixated and blinkered.

My biggest fear upon waking up from a night of drinking, especially of late when I have been posting to this forum whilst drunk, is that in my fixatedness and over-assertiveness I will say something highly inappropriate or revealing of a baser nature that I strive to keep in check. I strive to be respectful to everybody, and sometimes this involves suppressing initially disrespectful thoughts. It could be embarrassing and misrepresentative of my sober reckonings for some such thoughts to pop out inadvertently whilst I was drunk.

[average]

I predicted you'd miss the irony, and I was right. You have absolutely no insight. Your inability to self-criticize has made you foolish.

the irony you think exists is just a product of your imagination. :)

In the case of "what philosophy has done for the world", saying "pretty much everything" is a complete, accurate, and specific answer. It has literally affected all of human thought. Making a list is fucking retarded, because the list would include everything humans have ever thought, ever. In this case, calling alcoholism and philosophy escapism is an incomplete answer. Not everyone drinks to escape, so that answer is insufficient; and good philosophers study reality, so calling them escapist is downright false. Escapism is an attempt to evade reality, but directly confronting it is the polar opposite of that. If you must be pedantic and say that they are escaping from something, they are trying to escape from errors, delusions, mistakes, and other false thoughts.

Wrong thread buddy, insufficient answer as usual. You can't be specific because you don't really know what philosophy has contributed and accomplished...which is fine.
I'm glad my observation of your flaws is sticking so well with you...

[Pye]

I'm reminded of the story of the ancient Persians (the ones who used to fight the Greeks): Apparently, it was standard practice when an important decision of state needed to be made that the participants in the process gather in the evening to discuss it, with the express goal of getting shitfaced whilst they do. They would actually decide what to do by the end of the evening in that condition, but they would do nothing until they judged said decision by the light of the next day, hangover and all. The decision either still looked good whereupon they would follow-through with it, or it didn't look so good, whereupon they'd gather again that evening, get shitfaced, and discuss the whole thing all over again. An interesting way to loosen the tongue, open the heart, set the mind in swirl. And the Persians were smart enough to know that what you get from that just well might be crap.

I've heard as well this bit about alcohol bringing out the 'real' you - hence, some drunks get angry; some get melancholy; some get expansive; some get indiscriminately horny. We certainly lose our guard, as the Persians knew. I was the expansive variety of drinker when I used to drink: became huge, all-encompassing, loving and lenient, in [apparently] full understanding of everything (but then, I had to wake like a persian, too . . . ;) For the past decade or so, a sip of a drink seemed pretty much like a sip of the operative ethanol to me. It is what it is, now. I have to dampen down bacchian intensity in front of people enough as it is. Have to keep shining apollo from shining too much, too. I'm one of those people for whom's been said "she doesn't need to drink . . ." I come from planet pye, sometime in the future, where all intoxication becomes a matter, purely, of will . . . ;)

[ExpectantlyIronic]

I always think. Why would I not do it when I drink?

[Trevor Salyzyn]

the irony you think exists is just a product of your imagination. :)

I know it doesn't exist in your imagination at all. I already said that; however, considering the irony is so blatant, it is a horrendous a failure on your part to see it.

Wrong thread buddy

You suffer from the same delusions whether you are in this thread or that one.

insufficient answer as usual.

Don't fucking copy my words. It's just more evidence that you barely even put any real consideration into crafting a decent reply on your own, and just slap together the first thing that you can think of (which happens to be remembering what I just said).

ou can't be specific because you don't really know what philosophy has contributed and accomplished...which is fine.

You aren't actually on the offense, you moron. You are swinging wildly at the air with your bare hands, trying to catch a-hold of something, but I've already sniped your feet out from under you from hundreds of yards away.

I'm glad my observation of your flaws is sticking so well with you...

The flaw was your own failure to know how to read abstract thought. Which is actually a failure to know how to make the abstract concrete. When I say "everything" you don't get an any specific mental picture -- you just see something too vague for your brain to comprehend -- which is a shame because "everything" is such a useful word.

[Bilby]

I had a battle with alcohol years ago, so I know first hand how destructive it is. I’m a teetotaller now. Physically, alcohol releases dopamine, a feel-good chemical, which is why people drink it. It also destroys pathways responsible for self-control, so you feel euphoric while saying stupid you’re going to regret later.

We’ve all got dark undercurrents, and alcohol releases this side of us. At first, we’re just nicely merry when the dopamine kicks in, but then as you lose your inhibitions anything that’s usually under wraps is going to surface. In a sense when you’re drunk you’re more “you” because there’s less censorship, but it’s also a less rational and civil you as well. And manners make up the person just as much as any underlying issues. Alcohol is a lovely release from unhappiness, until it makes you sadder in the long run, then you just have to quit.

[sue hindmarsh]

Laird wrote:

My biggest fear upon waking up from a night of drinking, especially of late when I have been posting to this forum whilst drunk, is that in my fixatedness and over-assertiveness I will say something highly inappropriate or revealing of a baser nature that I strive to keep in check. I strive to be respectful to everybody, and sometimes this involves suppressing initially disrespectful thoughts. It could be embarrassing and misrepresentative of my sober reckonings for some such thoughts to pop out inadvertently whilst I was drunk.

In people who don’t have a strong connection to Truth, alcohol and other drugs can loosen minds from their normal scripts to reveal deeper desires and yearnings – their “baser nature”, as Laird mentions above. In a thinker, this doesn’t happen because, drunk or sober, their connection to Truth is consistent.

Though I wouldn’t recommend taking up alcohol and drugs to test ones relationship with Truth – for there really isn’t any need to do so when you are actually in that relationship – but if you are unsure of your own mind, being stonkered or stoned can reveal attachments that you may be completely unaware of. The only problem is that you’d need to have another observe and record your behaviour – and they’d have to do so cold sober, which may make them reluctant to enter into the exercise. ; )

-

[Dan Rowden]

My relationship with grog has no real relevance to my philosophical being. It is a legacy of my non-philosophical life. Maybe a connection could be made, but I think it would be a rather contrived one. I do not recommend alcohol as a mind stimulating drug. It just isn't. Alcohol and women are the worst drugs possible for thinking. Avoid them both, and especially in concert!

[Carl G]

Alcohol And Women in concert. I actually saw them a few months ago. What a version they performed of "I Lose My Mind." Whoa, and "Nose Ring (I'll Be Your Slave)" blew me away. They were awesome.

[Sapius]

Drinking and Thinking

No doubt that cocktail would be a highly intoxicating one; since often one keeps fueling the other, but which one should end up with an upper hand, is the question that one could drink to.

Cheers! :)

[Katy]

I do not recommend alcohol as a mind stimulating drug. It just isn't. Alcohol and women are the worst drugs possible for thinking. Avoid them both, and especially in concert!

So why do you continue?


At any rate, at one point I copy pasted a trivia game I was playing while drunk. I recently reread it and half the information I was answering I can't answer sober. Like it just sort of came out of no where.

I've never tried to write a paper more than tipsy before, but from friends and classmates I've heard that papers tend to get information out there fast in a shitty way... I knew one guy with a 4.0gpa whose method of writing papers was "write it drunk, edit it sober"

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

Memory works in such a way that you can best remember things in the state that you learned them in. So if you learn something when you are drunk and don't go over the information when sober, you will only know it when you are drunk.

[Ryan Rudolph]

Bilby wrote:

I had a battle with alcohol years ago, so I know first hand how destructive it is. I’m a teetotaller now. Physically, alcohol releases dopamine, a feel-good chemical, which is why people drink it. It also destroys pathways responsible for self-control, so you feel euphoric while saying stupid you’re going to regret later.

We’ve all got dark undercurrents, and alcohol releases this side of us. At first, we’re just nicely merry when the dopamine kicks in, but then as you lose your inhibitions anything that’s usually under wraps is going to surface. In a sense when you’re drunk you’re more “you” because there’s less censorship, but it’s also a less rational and civil you as well. And manners make up the person just as much as any underlying issues. Alcohol is a lovely release from unhappiness, until it makes you sadder in the long run, then you just have to quit.

Yes, this sort of behavior sounds very familar, in my college drinking days, I realized this as well. I noticed that all my strong unconscious desires came to the surface. And I was amazed how superficially charismatic I could be, as the rational part of my brain became totally suborinate to the more primordial parts. And the result of the dopamine surges and the primitive brain being in total control is that I was perfectly comfortable saying anything to anybody with an utter indifference to the consequences. A night of alcohol is almost always a night of evil for most people. It's usually a night of psychological violence, emotion, intense sensual craving, and so on.

So usually drinking and intellectual thinking do not go hand in hand, although I've had a few mystical experiences while drinking, but that came when I was totally alone, and my brain had ceased all movement, and I felt a sort of immense clarity, and an otherworldly presence.

So I agree with Bilby’s point here. Society would be a lot better if people were rational enough to live without alcohol, as it is not necessary at all, and has no positive attributes.

All and all, a responsible government should slowly remove alcohol from the market. My idea is that the Canadian government should take some of the stronger types of alcohol such Rum, vodka, and whiskey off the market, while leaving only beer and wine for sale.

And eventually, over time, beer and wine sales could be limited as well.

If it was done slowly, and if some lighter types of alcohol were still sold, it may prevent a black market emerging, while still reducing the instances of drunk driving, domestic violence, and so on.

[Elizabeth Isabelle]

By law, beer sold in Florida has less alcohol in it than northern beer. This was done as a safety measure due to the heat and the tendency for people to drink beer outside, especially on the beach. Perhaps the same thing could be done with all alcohol to wean people off of it. Still sell all the same stuff (if someone really likes rum, beer is not going to be an acceptable substitute), but slowly reduce the alcohol content. There would still be home brewing, of course, and I'd rather not see governments take too controlling of an attitude, but the stuff sold in stores might not have to be so strong.

The biggest deal though is to both provide better treatment for alcoholism and other drug addictions, while removing the stigma from mental health treatment. Many alcoholics and addicts are actually self-medicating for depression because somehow it is more socially acceptable to go down to the pub and kill off some brain cells than to take antidepressants and make the brain function better.

It's a shame that some people still value more "oh, but what would other people think if they found out I was taking psychiatric medication" than they value the more logical choice - actually taking good care of their brains.

[Laird]

At any rate, at one point I copy pasted a trivia game I was playing while drunk. I recently reread it and half the information I was answering I can't answer sober. Like it just sort of came out of no where.

I strongly relate to this and it's one of the things that I like most about inebriation. It makes it a lot easier for me to have conversations with people that I barely know because somehow when they mention something that I have little opinion on or knowledge of when I'm sober, I suddenly have a wealth of facts (or at least one significant one) and opinions at my disposal when drunk to continue the conversation with.

I've never tried to write a paper more than tipsy before, but from friends and classmates I've heard that papers tend to get information out there fast in a shitty way... I knew one guy with a 4.0gpa whose method of writing papers was "write it drunk, edit it sober"

That's a lot like Pye's story about the Persians and you've both inspired me to adopt the same approach to my drunken GF posts (whether I have the self-control to actually follow through is a different matter... posting and reading here has become my addiction and an addict must have his fix then and there).

By law, beer sold in Florida has less alcohol in it than northern beer. This was done as a safety measure due to the heat and the tendency for people to drink beer outside, especially on the beach. Perhaps the same thing could be done with all alcohol to wean people off of it.

This wouldn't work for me because I tend to drink to get drunk, so if the alcohol content were reduced I would simply drink more. A lot of people limit themselves to a certain number of drinks though, so for those people it would be an effective approach.

[Katy]

All and all, a responsible government should slowly remove alcohol from the market. My idea is that the Canadian government should take some of the stronger types of alcohol such Rum, vodka, and whiskey off the market, while leaving only beer and wine for sale.

And eventually, over time, beer and wine sales could be limited as well.

If it was done slowly, and if some lighter types of alcohol were still sold, it may prevent a black market emerging, while still reducing the instances of drunk driving, domestic violence, and so on.

Nah, that's what we've done here in this county you can't have anything harder than weak beer and wine. There are liquor stores dotting every inch of the county line that are some of the biggest businesses around. Beer and wine doesn't get you drunk enough fast enough and people wan't hard liquor so they get it however they have to get it.

Eliz's weaning wouldn't work either for the same reason. People would just refigure how much they need to hit the point they want and change how much they drink. It's the same here with the weak beer. Doesn't change anything.

[brokenhead]

From Katy:

I knew one guy with a 4.0gpa whose method of writing papers was "write it drunk, edit it sober"

It might depend on the type of paper. But alcohol can remove writer's block, along with any other block that might be in operation in one's psyche. The method is sound, and made much more effective with today's word-processing. Uncork your head, dump the raw material out onto a workspace, sober up and find out what you have. You then can mold, flesh-out, and redact.

Let us not forget the "Philosopher's Song":

Immanuel Kant was a real piss-ant who was very rarely stable.
Heideggar, Heideggar was a boozy beggar who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume Schoppenhauer and Hegel.
And Whittgenstein was a beery swine who was just as sloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach 'ya 'bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.
John Stewart Mill, of his own free will, after half a pint of shanty was
particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away, 'alf a crate of whiskey every day!
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
And Hobbes was fond of his Dram.
And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart:
"I drink, therefore I am."
Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed;
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.

-Monty Python

[Faust]

it's best to avoid drinking especially if you're a thinker. It only appeases the ego, that is all. For anyone who claims that their writer's block was removed after drinking, please post what was it that you wrote when you were drunk.

[brokenhead]

For anyone who claims that their writer's block was removed after drinking, please post what was it that you wrote when you were drunk.

If you suffer from writer's block, then you wouldn't be able to post anything, correct?
The idea is to get the thoughts flowing out, capture them, then "edit when you're sober."

Getting drunk doesn't necessarily mean remaining drunk. And you don't have to go for the bombed-out state, either, which can leave you vegetative. As any drinker will tell you, getting drunk is superior to being drunk and far better than sobering up.

Myself, I do not drink. Anymore, that is. I did find that a bottle of wine and a good cigar facilitated writing for me, and painting, as well, since I dabble in watercolors and ink drawings. Severely elevated blood pressure made me give up some of life's pleasures. My cardiologist put it this way: "Your BP is so far up there, that if it weren't for your skin, you would be a fountain." Medication and lifestyle changes have dramatically corrected things, but I don't begrudge other people their indulgences, as long as they don't endanger others.

And it's not only alcohol that gets the creative juices flowing. Wasn't it Dostoevsky who was a coffee fiend? Like up to 50 cups a day? "When I drink coffee, the ideas come marching in like an army." It was either him or some other 19th century giant.

I have attended enough AA and NA meetings to know how insidious alcohol can become in people's lives, much more so than in my own personal experience. It can touch every single facet, affect every single relaionship, take hold and not let go, as if this bottle - this inanimate object - had a life and dedicated it to your undoing. I get that. I submit, however, that everyone else need not be either myself or my confreres at AA. Alcohol is powerful, and used correctly, can be a means of overcoming anxiety and self-doubt that often is inherent in the creative process. Perhaps some may find that it tones down the voices in the head, so that one's own "still, small voice" may be heard. For others, possibly on a deadline, a couple of shots can be like an epidural, producing on demand with as little agony as possible.

I'm not suggesting that alcohol adds any ability that isn't already there. In fact, it quite probably magnifies any lack of ability.

In vino vertas has its place in the creative endeavor.